Analog radio with 1 to 1 calling

[Kf4mnc]

As others have mentioned you really are treading in digital territory. I recently completed a similar project for a school where we wanted the following things that I believe are similar to your request.
A) Different channels for different groups.
B) The ability for a manager/administrator to hear ALL radio traffic.
C) The ability to selectively call an individual radio.

While those request can be done with an analog radio, the programming becomes much more complex. Additionally, the price of digital radios are much more reasonable than you might think and the features you get will surpass just about any analog radio.

My suggestion is to take a look at the Vertex Standard eVerge series of radios. They are priced about the same as the CP200s you are looking at and are backwards compatible with analog. (That way if you need to rent more radios it is no big deal, where as the Motorola DTR series others have mentioned are proprietary and may be hard to find.) Also, the Vertex programming software is free, as is their tech support, and you can pick up a programming cable for pretty cheap. (I was able to teach myself how to program them in a short amount of time with a few calls to tech support.) As others mentioned your biggest expense is going to be the cost of licensing, which you are going to have to get a shop involved with to do.

You said you didn't like the delay with digital. Is that the only reason you don't want to go that route?

In my opinion the half-second delay is worth the clarity that digital offers.

 

[WA0CBW]

What you want to do isn't possible with analog radios. You can selectively call a single radio but a simple push of the monitor button will allow any user to hear what you are saying. A single radio frequency is a party line. Anyone can listen in. Also to have several groups be able to talk to each other simultaneously within each group would require a separate frequency for each group. In analog only a single conversation can take place on a single frequency. You can accomplish what you want with digital radios. With MotoTrbo digital you can have private calling and multiple talk groups. You can also have two simultaneous conversations ( a private and group call) on a single frequency. There are other features such as text messaging and GPS location. However, as mentioned above, you will need to obtain an FCC license for at least one frequency (or more if you want more than 2 simultaneous conversations). Take a look at the new Motorola CP200d. I think it will fit your needs.
BB

 

[Meestor_X]

What you want to do isn't possible with analog radios. You can selectively call a single radio but a simple push of the monitor button will allow any user to hear what you are saying. A single radio frequency is a party line. Anyone can listen in. Also to have several groups be able to talk to each other simultaneously within each group would require a separate frequency for each group. In analog only a single conversation can take place on a single frequency.

That's all fine. As I said, I'm not concerned with privacy. The 1 to 1 calling is only so 2 people can have a longer conversation without disturbing the other people in their group. I'm looking for a 16-channel radio anyway, so the separate frequency requirement is not an issue.

You can accomplish what you want with digital radios.

I understand that, but we've tried digital radios. Everyone really hates the delay which you can hear if you're in range of another person in your group.
I was hoping that there might be an analog solution, and from what people are saying here, it sounds like there might be, but are concerned about the programming and licensing. So putting that aside for now, is there actually a radio that fits my criteria?

 

[Meestor_X]

While those request can be done with an analog radio, the programming becomes much more complex.

I'd be interested to know which makes and models of analog can do that.

My suggestion is to take a look at the Vertex Standard eVerge series of radios. They are priced about the same as the CP200s you are looking at and are backwards compatible with analog.

I'm not following. These radios are analog AND digital?

You said you didn't like the delay with digital. Is that the only reason you don't want to go that route?
In my opinion the half-second delay is worth the clarity that digital offers.

Yeah, the delay is a deal-breaker, unfortunately.

 

[Meestor_X]

The issue is more about licensing than anything else. You will likely spend well over $500 to get a license. You will then spend several hundred dollars on programming software. All of this before the cost of radios.

Understood. Regardless of that, I'm still interested in figuring out which radio is right for me.

 

[WB4CS]

Cellular telephones.

You're asking for features used in digital radios, but do not want a digital radio. Confused, I am.

I echo the other comments about going to the place you are currently renting the radios from. They should be able to assist you with getting the appropriate licence, selling and programming your own radios. You certainly could do it on your own, but as it has been mentioned above, the cost will be quite high.

The only other route I can think of is going MURS. MURS is license free, VHF, and 2 Watts of power. You can purchase MURS radios that are already programmed out of the box, and they are fairly cheap. However, they are analog radios and do not have the ability to do the type of selective calling you're looking for, which would need a digital radio. (I'm not positive if digital is allowed on MURS or not, someone else can fill in that info.)

Good luck!

 

[Meestor_X]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

I think, however, I seem to be getting mixed messages, some are hinting that I could get what I want with an analog setup, others are saying that only digital has the feature I'm looking for.
So perhaps I'm still not being clear enough in what I'm looking for. I did a little searching for this function that I'm interested in. I was calling it 1 to 1 calling, but I think the more correct term is Selective Calling.

Knowing that, again I ask, which analog radios have this function, along with an easy way to select which user I want to selectively call?

 

[WA0CBW]

Meestor X,

Check your private messages.
BB

 

[krokus]

Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.80 (Android 2.3.4; Linux; Opera Mobi/ADR-1309251116) Presto/2.11.355 Version/12.10)

Thank you everyone for your replies.

I think, however, I seem to be getting mixed messages, some are hinting that I could get what I want with an analog setup, others are saying that only digital has the feature I'm looking for.
So perhaps I'm still not being clear enough in what I'm looking for. I did a little searching for this function that I'm interested in. I was calling it 1 to 1 calling, but I think the more correct term is Selective Calling.

Knowing that, again I ask, which analog radios have this function, along with an easy way to select which user I want to selectively call?

A Motorola analog trunking system can provide provide the ability to call from one radio to another. I assume other brands can, as well. (This feature is handled with digital circuitry.)

Motorola is phasing out all support of these types of systems, which is a large reason why more users are moving to digital technology.

Basically, every feature you are looking for is a digital feature, but comes at the price ADC/DAC conversion of the voices.

 

[Kf4mnc]

I'd be interested to know which makes and models of analog can do that.
I'm not following. These radios are analog AND digital?
Yeah, the delay is a deal-breaker, unfortunately.

Based on your questions it appears you really have in idea about how radios work and that's ok, that is what the forum is here for. That said people make good money solving the questions you are asking so don't just expect people to give you step by step instructions for how to make it work. So, to answer your questions . . . .

As someone else said, a trunking system will do what you want over analog, but you are talking about aging technology that would be costly to buy, program, license and maintain. This is not something the average radio user can do on their own. You need to talk to your dealer, or see below.

The eVerge series of the Vertex Standard (which is owned by motorola and therefore about 95% compatible with their digital radios) can operating in both digital and analog depending on how they are programmed. (All radios transmit on analog frequencies it is just how the transmission is encoded and decided that makes it digital.) So, if you are familiar with the Motorola DTR series of radios they are digital only as they operate on their own proprietary encoder/decoder and the radios cannot be programmed to accept or send traditional analog transmissions. The eVerge radios and others can receive analog or digital transmissions depending on how they are programmed, however, Motorola Trbo digital is not compatible with Kenwood Nexedge digital ( there are others, this is just an example).

I understand what you are saying about the delay, but if you are close enough to hear the delay perhaps you don't need the radios?? It really is minimal.

As others have said your are in the area of digital radios or a cell phone. If you are in an area where you have internet access and smart phones maybe you should look at Mumble, ventrilo, or other VoIP push to talk solutions.

 

[DisasterGuy]

Also, keep in mind that all selective calling does is keep a radio muted until called. This would mean that no one would be able to hear anything at all until you send a signalling command from a selective call encoder to call them. In theory you could potentially use CTCSS in a multi-channel configuration to do a little bit of what you are talking about but it wouldn't be very intuitive for the user.

Also, a quick follow-up to the licensing issue since I just noticed that you are talking about trying to use 16 channels in a 16 channel radio... Assuming that there were 16 frequencies available (in many areas a long shot) you could expect to pay the following:

Frequency Coordination Fee: $220 first frequency, $75 each additional for a total of $1,345.00 per area of operation.
FCC Filing Fee: $210
Misc Coordinator/Filer Fees (Process of 601 w/ Schedules D&H): $250

As you can see, to license 16 frequencies, if there are 16 available and assuming they can all be coordinated in a single area of operation, you can easily expect to pay $2,000 for licensing. Requirements for contour analysis, licensee concurrence or waivers could easily cause the price to triple or more as you will pay based upon time and materials for engineers and lawyers. You can then expect to pay anywhere from $210 to $500 to renew or modify each license. This is why everyone is impressing the licensing piece on you.

What a local radio shop may have to offer you:
-The ability to PURCHASE radios for use on frequencies they are already licensed for
-The ability to PURCHASE radios for use on a trunked radio system they own (paying PTT time)
-The ability to demo for PURCHASE a digital radio you can actually evaluate to make up your own mind.

If this is for a business it would not be fiscally responsible to go the route you are trying to take. If this is not for business, you are not eligible for a license to do what you are asking anyway.

 

[UPMan]

Uniden GMR5089-2CKHS has a feature where everyone can be on the same channel (for group calls) but you can make an individual call to any one person (up to 16 unique ID's total). When you do a direct-call to an individual radio, the radios temporarily switch to another CTCSS (actually it is a proprietary subaudible code) for the duration of the direct call. Once the conversation is over, the radios return to "all call" mode. So, you can do one-to-one or one-to-all.

They are also fully submersible (has the side effect of making them more durable as well).

 

[JRayfield]

If the application for these radios is for a business, then forget GMRS. The FCC will not license a business for GMRS.

John Rayfield, Jr.

 

[Meestor_X]

Based on your questions it appears you really have in idea about how radios work and that's ok, that is what the forum is here for. That said people make good money solving the questions you are asking so don't just expect people to give you step by step instructions for how to make it work.

I understand. I'm also quite familiar with how forums work, and that is in fact what they are good for, answering questions. If nobody answered questions, there wouldn't be a forum. I'm really not looking for a step-by-step as much as a simple answer to what I thought was a simple question:
Is there an analog radio that can do selective calling? I guess I now need to add: without trunking, and not a digital system with latency.
If responders had said no, there' s no such thing, then I'd move on. But, there seem to be some that are suggesting there is an analog solution. That is the sort of answer I'm looking for.

As someone else said, a trunking system will do what you want over analog, but you are talking about aging technology that would be costly to buy, program, license and maintain. This is not something the average radio user can do on their own. You need to talk to your dealer, or see below.

Not interested in a trunking system.

The eVerge series of the Vertex Standard (which is owned by motorola and therefore about 95% compatible with their digital radios) can operating in both digital and analog depending on how they are programmed. (All radios transmit on analog frequencies it is just how the transmission is encoded and decided that makes it digital.) So, if you are familiar with the Motorola DTR series of radios they are digital only as they operate on their own proprietary encoder/decoder and the radios cannot be programmed to accept or send traditional analog transmissions. The eVerge radios and others can receive analog or digital transmissions depending on how they are programmed, however, Motorola Trbo digital is not compatible with Kenwood Nexedge digital ( there are others, this is just an example).

This sounds promising, thank you. I will look into the Vertex systems.

I understand what you are saying about the delay, but if you are close enough to hear the delay perhaps you don't need the radios?? It really is minimal.

Wow. I really do have to repeat myself a lot here, don't I? Please understand, I mean no disrespect when I say, once again, I'm not interested in digital. If a poster only knows of a digital solution, please don't suggest it, unless someone has come up with a latecy-free digital system, that is!

As others have said your are in the area of digital radios or a cell phone. If you are in an area where you have internet access and smart phones maybe you should look at Mumble, ventrilo, or other VoIP push to talk solutions.

Once again, just looking for an analog radio with selective calling that doesn't need trunking and has the ability to choose which person to selectively call. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Meestor_X]

Uniden GMR5089-2CKHS has a feature where everyone can be on the same channel (for group calls) but you can make an individual call to any one person (up to 16 unique ID's total). When you do a direct-call to an individual radio, the radios temporarily switch to another CTCSS (actually it is a proprietary subaudible code) for the duration of the direct call. Once the conversation is over, the radios return to "all call" mode. So, you can do one-to-one or one-to-all.

They are also fully submersible (has the side effect of making them more durable as well).

Thank you for that suggestion. Is there a product like this that is professional?

 

[Meestor_X]

Also, keep in mind that all selective calling does is keep a radio muted until called. This would mean that no one would be able to hear anything at all until you send a signalling command from a selective call encoder to call them.

Perfect! Exactly what I'm looking for!

In theory you could potentially use CTCSS in a multi-channel configuration to do a little bit of what you are talking about but it wouldn't be very intuitive for the user.

Are there any radios that make this easier?

Also, a quick follow-up to the licensing issue since I just noticed that you are talking about trying to use 16 channels in a 16 channel radio... Assuming that there were 16 frequencies available (in many areas a long shot) you could expect to pay the following:

Frequency Coordination Fee: $220 first frequency, $75 each additional for a total of $1,345.00 per area of operation.
FCC Filing Fee: $210
Misc Coordinator/Filer Fees (Process of 601 w/ Schedules D&H): $250

As you can see, to license 16 frequencies, if there are 16 available and assuming they can all be coordinated in a single area of operation, you can easily expect to pay $2,000 for licensing. Requirements for contour analysis, licensee concurrence or waivers could easily cause the price to triple or more as you will pay based upon time and materials for engineers and lawyers. You can then expect to pay anywhere from $210 to $500 to renew or modify each license. This is why everyone is impressing the licensing piece on you.

Understood. Thank you for that information. I understand that licensing could get expensive.

What a local radio shop may have to offer you:
-The ability to PURCHASE radios for use on frequencies they are already licensed for
-The ability to PURCHASE radios for use on a trunked radio system they own (paying PTT time)
-The ability to demo for PURCHASE a digital radio you can actually evaluate to make up your own mind.

I'd rather talk to a dealer once I'm as informed as I can be and make sure I'm getting exactly what I want.

If this is for a business it would not be fiscally responsible to go the route you are trying to take. If this is not for business, you are not eligible for a license to do what you are asking anyway.

It's still important to educate oneself about products from users that are not looking to sell any product. This is why I always do my shopping on forums before I ever visit a store. This is the strength and importance of forums, and information given by people who just want others to learn and aren't looking to make a fast buck pushing whatever makes them the most money or old stock they're trying to get rid of.

I appreciate everyone's efforts to try and help me understand more. Even though I do have to repeat myself a lot!

 

[Kf4mnc]

Snip

I appreciate everyone's efforts to try and help me understand more. Even though I do have to repeat myself a lot!

You are having to repeat yourself because you lack the fundamental understanding of how selective calling works and why it is not easily accomplished with analog radios. Furthermore you are choosing not to listen to the knowledgable folks here at RR who have repeated themselves multiple times.

Your question has been answered multiple times and every time you respond as if you know everything about it and write it off for some reason. (Like the digital delay . . . If first responders can deal with the delay of digital I would imagine the majority of other digital users can as well.)

The fact is what you want cannot be done easily and cheaply.

While I know you don't understand, the mixed mode (analog and digital) that the Vertex, motorola, and kenwood radios offer only allow selective calling to work when operating in the digital mode, which will introduce the delay that you dislike so much.

You need to contact a dealer, tell them what you want and see what they say.

 

[Meestor_X]

The fact is what you want cannot be done easily and cheaply.

Fair enough. Wouldn't it have saved a lot of time and effort to have just said that at the beginning?
If my questions annoy you, you don't have to answer, neither does anyone else. If you're not the sort of person that likes to answer beginner questions, then don't participate. Of course I don't understand everything about radios. That's why I'm here - to find out the answers. Is this forum only for people that know everything about radios already?

 

[ramal121]

This thread is a day and a half old and 37 replies, wow. However I don't believe I've ever seen an OP yanked around as much as this one when he is trying to as plain as possible.

Meestor_X, to be simple, you CAN do what you are asking on a single analog channel. Granted digital gives you much flexibility in selective calls, but you stated no to that and that's fine. Trunking (analog and digital) can do this too (depending on the system), but how that ever came up as an answer to what you're asking I'll never know.

Yes, what you need is selective calling. Many manufactuers offer this. For analog, this would be a MSFK signalling system. Motorola uses MDC, Kenwood is Fleetsync, and Icom uses BIIS and there are others. Usually individual call (you say 1 to 1) and group call are possible. Sometimes you can do an "All Call" to everyone on the channel.

It sounds like you understand the limitations of sel call. You can only have one conversation at a time on a single channel and it is not private as any radio can disable the signalling squelch to monitor the channel (unless it's locked down tight). Where it shines is to limit calls to to certain radios as so not to disturb others that may also be on the channel, which you stated is what you wanted. While there is no latency between transmit and receive, there is a slight pause on key-up to send the signalling data.

Now to do this you'll have to have a mid to high tier model radio. Forget any radio that doesn't have a display as they will be limited in signalling options if it is indeed offered. You'll need to dig deep in the specs and see what is available. Obviously sel call decode and encode. Encode is usually from a list. How many IDs can you put into a list. Does the radio show the calling ID and can you assign a name "alias" to the ID. Is group offered?

If you want to tackle the programming yourself I will warn you it's not for the faint of heart. The best way is to get 3 or 4 radios and set the up and try it out. I guarantee you will program and re-program them several times before you get them to play the way you want to.

I can't speak for the cheap chinese radios as I've never tried but would suspect options are very limited if selective call is even offered. You'll need to do some research.

 

[ramal121]

I guess you wanted some models also. I have set up selective calling on Motorola HT1250 and Kenwood TK-3180. Check those and then look for others.