APX GPS

[alducks]

Has anyone figured out how to capture to capture the GPS data stream transmitted from Motorola APX portables to mapping software, like Google Maps, in order to track location of the radio? Motorola is working on their own system for accountability purposes; but it's not ready for 'prime time' marketing yet.

 

[Mr_Boh]

What do you mean "working on their own system"? To use GPS for tracking you need the appropriate Astro Type II or P25 system with Universal Processing Server (MUPS) or Intelligent Middleware and tie it to software that can handle the data it provides. You can actually use Astro 25 radios if you have the GPS accessories such as the HMN4048 GPS mic.

MUPS info

Intelligent Middleware Info

 

[alducks]

https://www.motorolasolutions.com/e...are-solutions/apx-p25-paa.html#tabproductinfo

Mr Boh:
link above to the accountability system Motorola is working on. I assume they're working on it because we've tried for over a year to get them to demo it for our fire dept. and they keep saying it's not reliable enough to demo or install.
We are invested in APX radios...not sure if it has the MUPS. Your reply to my inquiry is wasted I'm afraid on my lack of amateur radio tech status. Can you or anyone direct me to software that can 'handle' the data?

 

[Mr_Boh]

Ahhhh. I understand what you mean. So fireground accountability is different.

MUPS and/or IMW is going to require a Motorola contract over what I would guess to be at least $100k to dump the data coming from the trunking controller into some other software. Basically it’s designed to connect your radios positions to something like a CAD system.

Sounds like conventional only for you guys? Fireground accountability is out there, and I have had hands on with it. But it’s designed to work on scene of a single incident and not track data over a wide area. One of the obvious problems is GPS reception in building is questionable so they are working on using Bluetooth beacons or other technology to see where people are on the scene.

I think who ever is selling you fireground accountability is not explaining it well. It does do mapping, just not super reliably (I think that’s where your “developing” comment came from). Right now it’s best described as an interactive command board.

So APX radios transmit location either over a data channel for a trunking system, or over the voice channel. In order to get the data out you can pull it from the trunking system or use some sort of receiver that can take the signal, translate the data, and then put it on a map.

Here’s the problem, the location only comes when someone transmits. So you won’t know where someone unless they transmit. That’s what makes fireground accountability unique - it uses proprietary technology to “ping” the radios when the channel is at rest. That’s why the true tracking solutions require a trunking system - they are on a fairly regular interval sending their location and other data to the control channel.

Hopefully that makes sense? You’re pretty much going to need a trunking system and software development to watch radios move across the screen - the fireground accountability is localized to the incident you are on only, and unfortunately there’s no way to pull GPS from portables, and while mobiles can spit out GPS data, it requires specific accessories such as a VML

 

[alducks]

Thank you for the clarification. I was hoping for a way to obtain whatever GPS information is available from the APX radio since I see on the CPS software options re activating GPS and use it for exterior location tracking. The 'some sort of a reciever' info is what I was hoping to get.
I am aware of the GPS reception limitations. The proprietary pinging technology is something we want; but somehow are having problems getting Motorola to bring it to us.

 

[MTS2000des]

Without a location server on your Astro 25 core, APX GPS data is meaningless and won't be usable to third party applications without an API to the Motorola LS, which of course, you have to buy with your Astro 25 system. It's available as an option on K and M cores but it costs serious money.

There are better options for GPS, most of us do it with CAD or a third party add on. The CAD system I rolled out includes a mobile app that takes advantage of location services native to iOS and Android devices it runs on. It can also run on a Chrome browser on a laptop, but at least on Windows the WLS doesn't seem to play well with it so no AVL.

 

[rustyjw]

So, Boh,
The GPS tracking Inman APX radio onna trunked system will only work when the radio is in range/signal? So if I am in a building where the radio does not connect to the system, my GPS location won't get picked up? Is this the same on a conventional system?
My Dept is on a conventional and I'm starting to look into the GPS function of the APX radios.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[alducks]

you guys are talking 'tech' . I really need some layman's terminology with your explanations: Astro 25 core? VML? WLS? IMW? 'cmon...I'm new at this.
Does anyone know anybody who's actually captured APX GPS data to mapping software..or how they did it exactly? An AVL system for portable radios, basically.

 

[akardam]

One set of layman's terms, coming up.

P25 allows radios to transmit voice, and data. GPS information is considered the latter.

Whether an APX is operating in conventional or trunked mode, data transmissions (also known more specifically in the Motorola world as packet data transmissions) are sent point-to-point, and usually require some sort of infrastructure to do so. So, how does the APX radio know where to send its location information?

Enter the alphabet soup: ARS and PN/UNS/IMW. For the purpose of this discussion each of these can be considered the same.

In the radio's codeplug, there's an entry for something called an ARS - automatic registration server. The ARS is a computer that is connected to the data subsystem of the infrastructure (as opposed to the voice subsystem of the infrastructure) that keeps track of radios. Sounds complicated but it's really not. If the ARS fields are setup, the radio sends a data message to the specified IP saying "Hi, I'm radio ID 12345, and I'm using IP address 1.2.3.4". Then, any applications on the data side can query the ARS to know how to reach the radio.

On the data side of the infrastructure, the ARS is known variously as tne PN (presende notifier), UNS (Unified Network Services) or IMW (Intelligent MiddleWare). Don't worry two much about these acronyms, as they essentially represent succeeding generations of the same thing.

So, now basically we have all the pieces in place for GPS location reporting. In addition to keeping track of radios presence on the data subsystem, the facilities above (PN/UNS/IMW) can also be programmed to instruct the radio to report its location on an interval (every 5 minutes) or upon travelling a certain distance (500 meters, 1 mile, etc). A data application (such as a mapping application or a computer aided dispatch (CAD) application) can query the PN/UNS/IMW database to know where the radio was when it last reported, and it can also ask the radio to immediately give a new report of its location.

This is a long winded way of explaining the fact that some sort of infrastructure is required for the radio to report its GPS location. The radio really isn't setup to "broadcast" its location for all other radios on the conventional channel or trunked takgroup to hear. This is because, when it comes to data transmissions, the P25 spec usually concentrates on unicast (that is to say one-to-one or point-to-point) transmissions, not broadcast transmissions. Even though it would seem like the radio is sending IP packets, on the actuall air interface (how the radio sends bits over the air within the digital nature of P25), it's not really a common IT type network where such broadcast data could occur.

So... how does this help with the OPs original inquiry? Well, if the radio is already operating on a data-capable infrastructure and has all the necessary stuff on the back-end (ARS and an application to query it), then the data is made available there and doesn't need to be "captured". If, on the other hand, the OP is talking about "sniffing" data messages between the radio and the data infrastructure over the air, then assuming the data is not encrypted, it's theoretically possible, but if trunked you'd have to be able to track which packet data channel on the system was being used, and either way you'd also have to know enough of the P25 spec to decode the information out of the P25 data packets so you could then do with the information as you pleased.

Hope this helps.

 

[alducks]

Amazingly I follow most of that..thanks for breaking it down. What I need now is an infrastructure set up for the ARS...which decodes to a location on mapping software like Google Maps. What kind of infrastructure and software works in this application?