Austin Police - Encryption

[HiddenLefty]

This makes interop a nightmare and none of these agencies that do this ever realize it. They're always bad about sharing keys and they wouldn't even need to if they didn't do this. It's a public safety issue just because of that. You can't patch someone in if no key.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

This makes interop a nightmare and none of these agencies that do this ever realize it. They're always bad about sharing keys and they wouldn't even need to if they didn't do this. It's a public safety issue just because of that. You can't patch someone in if no key.

Nope. Encryption does not hinder interoperability. Nor does it prevent patching. You can certainly patch an encrypted tg to a clear one or even a plain Ole fm conventional channel. Agencies perform interoperability on shared channels which can be clear or with a shared Encryption key.

If an agency is permitted to have access to an agency's encrypted channels, then they would also have permission to load their agency keys in their subscribers. If not, we'll that's an ILA problem and not a technical one.

 

[Harold]

This makes interop a nightmare and none of these agencies that do this ever realize it. They're always bad about sharing keys and they wouldn't even need to if they didn't do this. It's a public safety issue just because of that. You can't patch someone in if no key.

You need to visit the DFW area, The NTIRN system has multiple encrypted agencies, all with separate encryption keys. Fort Worth PD, Johnson County, Arlington and Grand Prairie are just a few. Interop is a simple process of moving to a dedicated Interop talkgroup, of which their are many, and patching in any other talkgroups that need to be attached. And its all now in the clear. But it works well, and takes place everyday. And no one is sharing Keys.

 

[HiddenLefty]

You need to visit the DFW area, The NTIRN system has multiple encrypted agencies, all with separate encryption keys. Fort Worth PD, Johnson County, Arlington and Grand Prairie are just a few. Interop is a simple process of moving to a dedicated Interop talkgroup, of which their are many, and patching in any other talkgroups that need to be attached. And its all now in the clear. But it works well, and takes place everyday. And no one is sharing Keys.

This is fine if you're all on the same system but someone has to share the keys to people like DPS, and anyone not on the system has a nightmare of a time. This has and always will be the case. Not everyone is on the same system and they never will be. It hinders things.

 

[Harold]

This is fine if you're all on the same system but someone has to share the keys to people like DPS, and anyone not on the system has a nightmare of a time. This has and always will be the case. Not everyone is on the same system and they never will be. It hinders things.

DPS has keys, in the early days of the system DPS 101 only operated on the Interop Channels, now they can go to each jurisdictions system and as long as they have the TG programed they can communicate. They do however come up on the Interop channels quite often, everything from CLE to Troopers and Rangers. Even the Attorney Generals office uses the system. Yeah some agency from several counties away may have a problem, but that is why the TIRIS interop channels are being rolled out. NTIRN already has the capability and I personally have heard it being tested. https://www.dps.texas.gov/sites/def.../docs/05-interoperable-radio-interconnect.pdf

 

[hiegtx]

This is fine if you're all on the same system but someone has to share the keys to people like DPS, and anyone not on the system has a nightmare of a time. This has and always will be the case. Not everyone is on the same system and they never will be. It hinders things.

I hear DPS 101 (the helicopter based in the DFW area) working with area agencies, especially Garland & Mesquite, all the time. DPS 101 is on one of the interop talkgroups, as are any PD field units assigned to the incident. Encryption is not used on the Interop TGID.

I noticed that there is a specific TGID on the Dallas PD to link to GMRS.

 

[AI7PM]

This makes interop a nightmare and none of these agencies that do this ever realize it. They're always bad about sharing keys and they wouldn't even need to if they didn't do this. It's a public safety issue just because of that. You can't patch someone in if no key.

What part of INTEROP Freqs/TGs do you not understand?

 

[Echo4Thirty]

This is fine if you're all on the same system but someone has to share the keys to people like DPS, and anyone not on the system has a nightmare of a time. This has and always will be the case. Not everyone is on the same system and they never will be. It hinders things.

This is not true either, any comm center with any sort of console can patch an encrypted talkgroup to anything else on their console, including different systems or even conventional. While not ideal, I had to patch an encrypted talkgroup on our trunked system once to 8TAC91 for an operation with an agency that did not have our trunked system programmed in their radios. Worked just fine for the purposes of the event. It literally took seconds to have the dispatcher connect the resources together and to tell our guys to stay on their channel and the incoming guys to go to the 8TAC.

After this event, we sat down and created an ILA and got them access to the system.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

There are agencies here that will not share their encryption keys with any other agency and they work with the other agencies every day on shared interop talkgroups. Some of these talkgroups are encrypted with a common key so that the agency can still remain secure on their own talkgroups. Others are in the clear for those that do not have the keys yet for whatever reason.

 

[ohgaryoh]

Wow, now I don't feel so bad about moving to Georgetown. Since moving up here I couldn't receive Sim 7 even with a big fancy antenna and hours trying to fine tune my scanner. Really sucks though, maybe time to move down to SA.

 

[Ensnared]

Wow, now I don't feel so bad about moving to Georgetown. Since moving up here I couldn't receive Sim 7 even with a big fancy antenna and hours trying to fine tune my scanner. Really sucks though, maybe time to move down to SA.

You might want to look at SA's recent encryption ejaculation. I don't know how far the "E" infestation will affect SA and the surrounding area. It looks like there is more to monitor in SA. Alamo Area Regional Radio System (AARRS) Trunking System, San Antonio, Texas

Personally, I detest Austin with a purple passion. It is no longer the same city I knew, in the fairly recent past.

At least SA is a city and not Mayberry of Texas.

 

[ohgaryoh]

You might want to look at SA's recent encryption ejaculation. I don't know how far the "E" infestation will affect SA and the surrounding area. It looks like there is more to monitor in SA. Alamo Area Regional Radio System (AARRS) Trunking System, San Antonio, Texas

Personally, I detest Austin with a purple passion. It is no longer the same city I knew, in the fairly recent past.

At least SA is a city and not Mayberry of Texas.

Guess it's time to move up to Waco then.

 

[Ensnared]

Guess it's time to move up to Waco then.

Oh, don't get me started. We have enough folks coming from all over the world for the Magnolia Plague. I am quite blessed with the mindset of McLennan County.

As I previously posted, the former Waco PIO actually sent me a freedom of information format asking for such, in the appropriate wording. All I had to do was send it in. He indicated that Waco wanted the public involved. The PIO stated that he wanted the public to know what they encounter in their jobs, the good, bad, funny, and sad parts of being a good cop. Waco PD does not play. They remind me of the linebacker type cops in Galveston.

Ok, I had a crazy delusion. Since APD is "Hell Bent For Leather" about this ridiculous encryption, wouldn't it be wonderful if Austin PD only encrypted the dispatch channels and left the other stuff alone, with the exception of very sensitive talk groups.

When law enforcement "attempt" to justify the need for "E", they generally refer to morons who show up at a crime scene after listening to an app, not a scanner, "officer safety."

When the Boston Marathon bombing occurred, ABC News stated he was listening to a scanner, nope! I notified the feed and asked it be taken off line for the duration. I believe they were using MA, but I could be wrong.

Online feeds don't allow tactical LE talk groups. Generally speaking, they are mostly dispatch. Therefore, they could let most of the other talk groups be in the clear.

I have never ever heard anyone cite specific statistics on the number of times officers in the U.S. were actually killed or hurt as a function of someone listening to a police scanner. I have never heard any statistics concerning the number of times someone listening to a police scanner and compromising an investigation or police response. I believe some crooks do listen to scanners. However, I don't believe there is that much of a risk. I mean what percentage of the U.S. population listens to police scanners. We are a niche market.

Older movies, particularly Film Noir frequently show crooks listening in on those ancient radios.

I don't believe a great many people in the general public are going to plop down $500 or more for a digital scanner.

Food for thought.

 

[W5NIO]

I understand what you are trying to say, but lets not kid ourselves. There is miniscule significance for them going encrypted to the huge majority of the public. I would imagine a large swath of folks when asked would probably not really even care. Very few are we who listen, and even fewer not using cellphone streams but our own devices.

The amount of people that have approached us about being able to listen to Montgomery county is very low, take away the tow guys and it is literally single digits. The rest just have accepted that its the new normal and shrugged and moved on to listening to other things.

MCSO briefly tested news/media accounts on WAVE in a receive only mode, but did away with WAVE altogether. Very strict guidelines i.e. not even allowing colleagues with your org listening permissions, even passively. Part of the stipulations involved getting a non-criminal background check from RTCC (i.e. looking at everything you have ever posted on the internet). Multiple members of admin also had to approve.

Media access is not out of the question in the future. A specific candidate for Sheriff also has expressed his stance and believes that public should be able to listen to dispatch only. Current admin has hinted at being open to the possibility, only current discussions are preventing it.

 

[Ensnared]

MCSO briefly tested news/media accounts on WAVE in a receive only mode, but did away with WAVE altogether. Very strict guidelines i.e. not even allowing colleagues with your org listening permissions, even passively. Part of the stipulations involved getting a non-criminal background check from RTCC (i.e. looking at everything you have ever posted on the internet). Multiple members of admin also had to approve.

Media access is not out of the question in the future. A specific candidate for Sheriff also has expressed his stance and believes that public should be able to listen to dispatch only. Current admin has hinted at being open to the possibility, only current discussions are preventing it.

Yes, I am very familiar with the Montgomery County buffoons. If the "E" trend continues, I will likely sell my radios for guitars or FX lenses.

 

[TXDispatcher1]

Over the years (many, I have to say) I've come to the conclusion that very few criminals actually monitor police communications anyway. It's too complicated and time consuming and most of them have little to gain from listening to the PO-lice anyway, except possibly in the case of detective surveillance being done on them. In that case, the CI's will inform the detectives that the crooks have scanners and the detectives will usually work around that by going to some obscure back channel or encrypt their communications. I think this encryption is just what most posters are saying that it is-an attempt to keep the citizens in the dark about what they have a right to know about.

I don't know how encryption could work in Harris County anyway because HPD, HCSO and the constables still use the old system of calling for wreckers on the air, rather than using the next out system that a lot of cities use. If they went encrypted, they would have to go to the next out system, because there's no way that the wreckers would be able to listen to the cops when the common citizen isn't able to.

 

[rattlerbb01]

Over the years (many, I have to say) I've come to the conclusion that very few criminals actually monitor police communications anyway. It's too complicated and time consuming and most of them have little to gain from listening to the PO-lice anyway, except possibly in the case of detective surveillance being done on them. In that case, the CI's will inform the detectives that the crooks have scanners and the detectives will usually work around that by going to some obscure back channel or encrypt their communications. I think this encryption is just what most posters are saying that it is-an attempt to keep the citizens in the dark about what they have a right to know about.

I don't know how encryption could work in Harris County anyway because HPD, HCSO and the constables still use the old system of calling for wreckers on the air, rather than using the next out system that a lot of cities use. If they went encrypted, they would have to go to the next out system, because there's no way that the wreckers would be able to listen to the cops when the common citizen isn't able to.

The thing about it is that as long as they go unabated encrypting everything from the police chief to the dog catcher, framing it as officer and scene safety without any pushback, in the name of Back the Blue our legislators and governor will support them 100%. If someone can successfully push back on this by pointing out the fallacies of that argument and what a good asset an informed citizenry is, then perhaps legislation could prohibit denial of access to general dispatch at the very least. I would rather it be dealt with locally rather than statewide as additional laws on the books shouldn’t be needed. I am on board with tactical and private comms being encrypted so long as they are recorded and available for review when needed. Not police dispatch, or anything fire and EMS related except for fire marshal tactical and EMS to hospital.

 

[Wes]

The thing about it is that as long as they go unabated encrypting everything from the police chief to the dog catcher, framing it as officer and scene safety without any pushback, in the name of Back the Blue our legislators and governor will support them 100%. If someone can successfully push back on this by pointing out the fallacies of that argument and what a good asset an informed citizenry is, then perhaps legislation could prohibit denial of access to general dispatch at the very least. I would rather it be dealt with locally rather than statewide as additional laws on the books shouldn’t be needed. I am on board with tactical and private comms being encrypted so long as they are recorded and available for review when needed. Not police dispatch, or anything fire and EMS related except for fire marshal tactical and EMS to hospital.

Heck, as a medic, I'll say EMS to hospital doesn't need to be encrypted. It doesn't provide any protected health information.

 

[KevinC]

An agency close to me encrypted because they had caught several criminals in the act and they were using "scanner apps"...seems like using those apps didn't help them much.

 

[W5NIO]

Yes, I am very familiar with the Montgomery County buffoons. If the "E" trend continues, I will likely sell my radios for guitars or FX lenses.

Attached is the contract that used to exist for interagency access to Wave, including media during the beta stage. I didn't have too many complaints. I'm not out to go posting about stolen vehicles the second the call airs, so not posting things I hear on the radio is a reasonable restriction. That has caused issues in the county in the past. You'd likely hear a lot of PII than before so it protects civilians in a way too. I'd just like to have a general idea on a scene situation so I don't have to ping LT every time something significant happens that I might write a story about. Still holding onto my G5 and looking at an APX 6K as I don't anticipate to be around the Moco area enough for it to be a paperweight, at least within the next few years.

MCSO does have actual evidence of scanner apps being used in crimes though, unlike many places. During 2018/2019 they aired ATM thefts in The Woodlands over Tac3 and they magically caught everyone. One of the perps had his phone unlocked, with a scanner feed playing.

The one thing that aggravates me more than any encryption is the Texas Public Information Act. In Oklahoma I can have BWC recordings sent back to me within a week or two of putting in a request. Every request I have submitted in Texas (at least two dozen) got forwarded to the AG Open Records division and I didn't hear back from them until two or three months later.

The TPIA requires the name of involved parties in an incident, which cannot be just the officer's. It also cannot be an open investigation (kinda understandable if the video is a major part of it), open IA review, or even a deferred adjudication. Agencies and county attorneys essentially have to fight every PIA request, because, well, theres a lot of open ends that leave them liability.