BCD396T APCO-25 Programming Tip

[N_Jay]

It does to be advertised as "P25 Compliant." Yes, 3600 trunking uses portions of the P25 standard but it doesn't make it a full P25 system. Why is that hard to understand? The argument is what's compliant and what isn't; not what's partially or what has some (but not all) characteristics. Motorola 3.x/4.x/3600 trunking is not P25 Compliant. If you think it is, cite where. I have some of the TIA-102 documents and can look it up.

This has been argued before and it was stated that 3600 trunking was NOT a P25 Trunked system because it uses some features described in the P25 Standard.

-Wayne

Find me one piece of evidence that agrees with your position.

One piece on the Project25.org web site, one piece on the TIA (TIAonline.org) web site, one piece on the APCO (APCO911.org) web site. :roll:

ONE PIECE from any authoritative source.

Maybe it SHOULD be, but that does not make it so!

 

[Voyager]

So when another P25 document is finished (there are many in process) like the ISSI, then all the P25 systems in existence that don't has standardised ISSI will immediately stop being P25 systems? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Let me ask;
"Does a P25 System that does not include data services not qualify as a P25 system?"
"Must a P25 system implement encryption since it is in the standard?"
"Must an encrypted system support OTAR?"

This is a building block set of standards, not a monolithic standard. :wink:

All of what you mentioned are options that may or may not be used.

If it uses a control channel for a trunked system - it must be 9600 to be compliant.

Ever wonder why there are no 3600 ASTRO 25 systems? It's because to meet the '25' part, they need to use a 9600 control channel. That's why the other systems are not advertized as ASTRO 25, but just ASTRO. The 25 means that they FULLY meet APCO P-25 standards.

Let me ask you a question: If a system uses a 9600 CC and analog voice (I know there aren't any, but humor me), is it a P25 system because it does meet some of the P25 criteria? Would the committee say "Well, OK, you met some of our standards, so we will accept that you fully comply even though you clearly don't"?

NO - ANY of the options they choose to use must be compliant with P25 standards. That's why conventional systems are P25 compliant even though they don't use a 9600 control channel (or any control channel for that matter). If you use a control channel, it must be P25 compliant to maintain the system as being P25 compliant.

The P25 standard does allow for some custom options, but the control channel format is clearly spelled out. They were going to adopt 3600 for control channels, but they didn't. When they finalize and adopt Phase II, any existing systems will be P-25 phase I compliant, but NOT P25 Phase II compliant. Scanners will have to then add the Phase II specs to continue to be able to follow all P25 systems.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

Find me one piece of evidence that agrees with your position.

One piece on the Project25.org web site, one piece on the TIA (TIAonline.org) web site, one piece on the APCO (APCO911.org) web site. :roll:

ONE PIECE from any authoritative source.

Maybe it SHOULD be, but that does not make it so!

Well, if you call Motorola, Inc. an authoritative source (I think they know something about communications and may know who APCO is):

From their XTS1500 or XTS2500 spec sheets (they read the same in this area):

"Network Availability:
Trunking with mutual aid support, APCO Project 25 (9600 Control Channel), APCO Project 16 (3600 Control Channel)," <snip>

(Link removed - tried 4 times to post with the link and the board stopped responding - the old board never did that, BTW. It IS a long link)


I know they use the nasty P16 term you don't like as opposed to calling it a more pallatable name like Ralph, but please forgive them. They don't know you don't like that term.

Joe M.

 

[N_Jay]

(Not using a quote due to the current issues with the board)

Interesting marketing, the renaming of Smartnet signalling to "Project 16", but that aside;
Yes you are right a non-P25 control channel trunking system is NOT a "P25 Trunking System", however if the voice channels are P25 CAI, they are still P25 CIA. Renaming then "IMBE" only confuses the issue.

If we go back to the original question, the problem is people are trying to extend these names in ways that add more clarity than really exists.
The programming of the scanner to "P25 9600" or "Motorola 3600", is simply asking for the format of the CONTROL CHANNEL. By looking at it that way the answer is clear and there is no reason for confusion.

The "P25" indicator on the display is simply telling the format of the voice channel. Again, by understanding it is as such the confusion about why it is on on some mixed mode systems is likewise removed.

By trying to define systems as either "P25 or "Not P25", without understanding the building block approach of the standard is what causes all this confusion.

 

[W2SJW]

I've got a simple question, then. What IS the true time-table now to be in compliance with APCO-25? I confuses me when I see a very large county here in NJ (Burlington) just spend 2+ years rolling out a multi-site ASTRO SmartZone, and yet they chose a 3600 base.

Maybe it was the cost factor, but I thought they would be looking ahead to the future when they put together such a giant system...

 

[N_Jay]

I've got a simple question, then. What IS the true time-table now to be in compliance with APCO-25? I confuses me when I see a very large county here in NJ (Burlington) just spend 2+ years rolling out a multi-site ASTRO SmartZone, and yet they chose a 3600 base.

Maybe it was the cost factor, but I thought they would be looking ahead to the future when they put together such a giant system...

The time table is up to the agency or jurisdiction purchasing the system.

What was chosen may have to do with cost, but more likely it was other concerns like what existing equipment they want compatibility with, timing of feature availability, etc.

2+ years ago, I don't think there was anyone with a multisite pure P25 solution on the market.

 

[Voyager]

By trying to define systems as either "P25 or "Not P25", without understanding the building block approach of the standard is what causes all this confusion.

Not really. The confusion is eliminated by understanding that there is a difference between a system and just the voice channels, or jsut the control channels. The system is the entire system. If it meets P25 specs, program it as P25. If only part of the system meets P25 specs, you cannot program it as if the whole thing is P25. You have to program it for the least common denominator - in the case of a mixed mode system, that's P16 (or Motorola [BAND] Type II, which is P16 compliant).

It's quite clear on the RR database if you look at the System Type line. It either says Project 25 Standard or something else. If it's something else, it's not P25. Is that really so hard to grasp?

BTW, SmartZone, Etc is a class separate from P25. You can have a P25 system that is SmartZone too. You can have one that is not. SmartZone, SmartNet, Etc is not being replaced. If you want to draw direct comparisons: ASTRO 25 = P25.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

2+ years ago, I don't think there was anyone with a multisite pure P25 solution on the market.

I gotta call you on that one. Define 'pure P25' please.

Joe M.

 

[N_Jay]

It's quite clear on the RR database if you look at the System Type line. It either says Project 25 Standard or something else. If it's something else, it's not P25. Is that really so hard to grasp?

Not for me or you, but the questions here indicate that others get confused.
I guess is "Scanner-ees" "System" means "Trunked System".

BTW, SmartZone, Etc is a class separate from P25. You can have a P25 system that is SmartZone too. You can have one that is not. SmartZone, SmartNet, Etc is not being replaced. If you want to draw direct comparisons: ASTRO 25 = P25.

Joe M.

Now you are getting off track again.
SmartZone is Motorola's brand name for their multi-site SmartNet trunking system.
I don't know if they use "SmartZone" for multisite P25 systems. However I do know that P25 has its own site roaming algorithm that is NOT SmartZone.

And Astro 25 is just Motorola's brand name for their P25 equipment and systems but other stuff gets rolled in sometimes also. (Brands are messier than technology.)

 

[N_Jay]

I gotta call you on that one. Define 'pure P25' please.

Joe M.

What you would call a "P25 System".
P25 standard control channel, and P25 CAI voice channels.

 

[RyltnVFD]

2+ years ago, I don't think there was anyone with a multisite pure P25 solution on the market.

Then how did MPSCS come about?

 

[N_Jay]

Then how did MPSCS come about?

MPSCS?

When was it implemented?

 

[Voyager]

What you would call a "P25 System".
P25 standard control channel, and P25 CAI voice channels.

So you do admit there is a P25 control channel standard?

Joe M.

 

[N_Jay]

So you do admit there is a P25 control channel standard?

Joe M.

Sure. There are LOTS of P25 standards. I doubt there is any one system that complies with them all!

More reading for those who want to learn.

http://www.tiaonline.org/standards/project_25/index.cfm

http://www.tiaonline.org/standards/search.cfm?keyword=102

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

MPSCS?

History of MPSCS.

 

[N_Jay]

History of MPSCS.

Thanks,

I misspoke. change my "2+" to "about 3". :wink: