BCD536 not receiving Phase 2

[tatersalad]

My BCD536 is not receiving P25 phase 2 APCO-25 Common Air Interface Exclusive transmissions. When my local public safety converted to this system, I didn't have any issues and received it without any issues. For some reason, it stopped receiving this system. I can still receive other P25 Phase 1. I have an SDS200 in the same room that doesn't have any issues receiving the same transmissions. Is this a common problem? Could it be that the new system had upgrades that the 536 cannot decode? The system in question is the North Texas Interoperable Radio Network (NTIRN) in Ellis County Texas.

 

[RaleighGuy]

@tatersalad you don't tell us what site you are listening to but, judging from the county you shared, I'm guessing the Ellis County site. My first guess is it is a simulcast issue, as that site is a five tower simulcast system. The only scanners designed to work with simulcast is the SDS scanners, which is why your SDS200 works. Also, seems the Phase 2 simulcast issues are even worse than Phase 1 from what I've read.

 

[mass-man]

You should look down at the left bottom of the screen, and click onREPORT and move your question to the TEXAS FORUM...there has been mountains of info written about the system down in Ennis. And it is quite possible that they finally finished the switch over to full Phase 2 and indeed the 536 does not do that well...not impossible, just not well. The SDS200 you have was designed and released to tackle the problem of decoding Phase 2 simulcast and from what I read does it very well. Good luck in your search for the answer.

 

[hiegtx]

My BCD536 is not receiving P25 phase 2 APCO-25 Common Air Interface Exclusive transmissions. When my local public safety converted to this system, I didn't have any issues and received it without any issues. For some reason, it stopped receiving this system. I can still receive other P25 Phase 1. I have an SDS200 in the same room that doesn't have any issues receiving the same transmissions. Is this a common problem? Could it be that the new system had upgrades that the 536 cannot decode? The system in question is the North Texas Interoperable Radio Network (NTIRN) in Ellis County Texas.

All the Ellis County talkgroups on NTIRN used in Ellis County are P25 Phase II. Which Phase I talkgroups are you receiving? Are you occasionally getting Manfield, or some of the EMS to Hospital talkgroups that are Phae I? Occasionally, mobiles using those talkgroups, as well as Johnson County agencies, are far enough outside of their normal area that their radios affiliate with the Ellis County site instead of their 'home' sites. That's why you may hear some of them, even though they are not in Ellis County. I added the Mansfield & the hospital TGIDs to my SDS scanners, and locked them out, so that I no longer hear them when I'm monitoring your county.

Raleigh has mentioned, the Ellis County site is Simulcast. While the SDS scanners can deal with simulcast, just about all the other models may have problems. More in the Wiki: Simulcast digital distortion - The RadioReference Wiki
Here's the map:


The site nearest Ennis is slightly to the east of your city. The Waxahachie, Red Oak, and Midlothian sites are at varying distances, to your northwest.The Forreston site is West-Southwest of you. Are you using an external (rooftop) antenna on your 536HP, or just the back of the set antenna that came with the scanner. If you are using the telescoping antenna, you might try moving the 536HP around in your house, & see if you can find a 'sweet spot' that may allow the scanner to work, Or, again if using the back of the set antenna, keep the antenna collapsed, and place something metallic like a baking pan or cookie sheet next to the 536 on the side that is to your west. That might block the out of sync signals enough for the scanner to work.

 

[tatersalad]

I have used a set antenna and an outside antenna. I get intermittent reception, but at least I'm receiving something. So, I know the scanner isn't defective. The other issue is that I gave the scanner to someone that lives in Southern Dallas County. With an outside antenna I cannot receive any of the NTIRN talk groups. They primarily want to listen to Ennis, Ellis Co SO and Hutchins. Dallas Co is already simulcasting on the NTIRN and Hutchins will be in the future. I apparently don't have the correct sites downloaded?

 

[tatersalad]

I haven't downloaded the NXDN upgrade. Would that be the problem?

 

[trentbob]

I haven't downloaded the NXDN upgrade. Would that be the problem?

Not unless you're trying to pick up nxdn.

As was explained, although the 536 is Phase 2 capable, it often does not work well on Phase 2 simulcast systems.

I guess at this point the radio is about eight years old and was developed before phase 2 simulcast was a prominent system. Once many phase 2 simulcast systems came online it was realized the x36 did not handle simulcast well with intermittent reception or clipped or missed transmissions.

Uniden recognizing the problem, developed SDR simulcast capable radios, the SDS 100 and 200 which will work on your systems.

As was suggested, go to your state forum and read about the systems that you're having a problem with as there is much information there regarding reception problems.

 

[hiegtx]

I have used a set antenna and an outside antenna. I get intermittent reception, but at least I'm receiving something. So, I know the scanner isn't defective. The other issue is that I gave the scanner to someone that lives in Southern Dallas County. With an outside antenna I cannot receive any of the NTIRN talk groups. They primarily want to listen to Ennis, Ellis Co SO and Hutchins. Dallas Co is already simulcasting on the NTIRN and Hutchins will be in the future. I apparently don't have the correct sites downloaded?

There are two simulcast sites in NITRN that will be used for public safety, and other agencies, in Dallas County. These are listed in the NITRN database page as Dallas Layer 1 and Dallas Layer 2.

Once everything is fully up & running as planned, City of Dallas public safety (Dallas Fire Rescue & Dallas Police) will be normally on Dallas Layer 1. Dallas County S.O. & Dallas County Fire Service, along with the various Dallas (city) non-public service agencies such as Dallas Water Utilities will normally use Dallas Layer 2. However, apparently these talkgroups, especially for the public safety agencies, are valid on both layers, While I see some Dallas Public Safety TGIDs pop-up on layer 2, and some Dallas County public safety TGIDs on layer 1, this might be because, at a specific location, they might have better signal strength to use the alternate site.

For your friend in southern Dallas County, they likely are hindered by simulcast on all the system sites of interest. As shown by the map of the Ellis County Simulcast I posted above, they would have problems with the signals from the Red Oak, Waxahachie, & Ennis sites arriving at their antenna just enough out of sync to cause problems. See the Simulcast wiki link for a more detailed description of the problem.

Similar issues would be the issue with receiving Hutchins once they move to the new system. What might work for them would be to use a directional antenna, such as a Yagi, directed at a single site in Ellis County. The Ennis location might be the best shot. Aiming that at Ennis, they still might be able to catch Hutchins & the other Dallas County NTIRN talkgroups 'off the side' of that antenna. The closest site would be near the Dallas Southside Wastewater Treatment site near South Beltline Rd & Log Cabin Rd.

I haven't downloaded the NXDN upgrade. Would that be the problem?

As Bob has noted, your biggest problem is dealing with Simulcast. The only thing the NXDN upgrade would give you is the ability to receive the NXDN systems used by the 'Best Southwest' cities: Cedar Hill, Desoto, Duncanville, & Lancaster. And that would only be temporary, as these cities will also be shifting to NTIRN. Lancaster already has NTIRN talkgroups, and are beginning to access then occasionally. Of course, if there;s an interest in also monitoring railroad channels, eventually those will be shifting to NXDN.

I know that, at times, this may sound like a broken record to some people. But, when dealing with Simulcast, your best scanner option is one of Uniden's SDS series scanners, There are a few possible work-arounds that might help in a limited number of situations, such as a directional antenna, but that is not always effective. The Unication pagers can handle simulcast, but they are not actual scanners. While you can program more that one site, and more than one set of talkgroups, you can only monitor one site, and one set of 64 talkgroups at any one time.

 

[mmaguire180]

Feom what I was told that series does not work on phase 2 simulcast systems. Only the sds series does

 

[hiegtx]

Feom what I was told that series does not work on phase 2 simulcast systems. Only the sds series does

That's not entirely accurate. Yes, the SDS series scanners work well on simulcast systems.

And the Unication pagers also work well, even though they are not 'true' scanners. The Unications are apparently rugged as well, and can withstand simple drops. But they are limited to only one site and no more than 64 channels (talkgroups) at any one time. You can program additional sites, or sets of talkgroups, but only listen to one site/64 channels at any one time. They can only be programmed with software & a PC. You cannot create a system or add channels directly on the pager.

Scanners other than than the SDS series, such as the 436HP, and 536HP, as well as the 325P2 and 996P2, may not do well in many simulcast situations. But simulcast distortion is extremely location specific. If you happen to be very close to one of the transmit towers, it's stronger signal may drown out weaker, out of sync signals from more distant sites. At other times, your location may be such that signals from the other sites are either blocked, or attenuated to a much weaker signal by terrain, such as hills between you & the other sites, or blocked by a cluster of buildings. Or, something about your location, such as metal siding on the outside, or foil backed insulation in the walls, may reduce the distorting signals enough that a scanner other than an SDS series might work. Or, 'less' of an antenna, like a very short one such as the Comet 'Miracle Baby', a race antenna popular at NASCAR tracks, or even a paperclip, might work. One other possible work-around could be a directional antenna, such as a yagi, aimed at one specific tower, which may negate the problems. Of course, while these measures might be doable at a fixed location, such as your home, all bets are off when you walk out the door & go mobile in your vehicle.

If you are dealing with a simulcast system, and considering purchasing a scanner other than one of the SDS series scanners (or Unication pager), buy your less effective scanner from a dealer that does not whack you with substantial restock fees for a return if your initial choice does not work out.

 

[tatersalad]

I purchased an SDS100 with the anticipation that it would receive Ennis and Ellis Co in the NTIRN. Unfourtnally, it doesn't. My frustration is that I programmed the scanner with Sentinel just as I did my SDS200. It works fine in Ennis. However, when I take it to Hutchins it doesn't receive anything in the NTIRN. I am a police officer for an Ellis Co police dept. I took my work radio (Motorola MPX6000) to Hutchins to see if it would receive anything. It works perfectly. So, I have no idea what I'm doing incorrectly in the programming part.

 

[Ubbe]

So, I have no idea what I'm doing incorrectly in the programming part.

Do "Export to hpe file, favorite list" from the SDS200 Sentinel programming and do "Import from hpe file" after changing to the SDS100 profile. Then it should be the same programming in the SDS100 as in SDS200 for that favorite list. The only thing that are left to check are the Service Types.

/Ubbe

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

I purchased an SDS100 with the anticipation that it would receive Ennis and Ellis Co in the NTIRN. Unfourtnally, it doesn't.

Check to ensure all applicable service types are turned on for the talkgroups you want to hear, otherwise the scanner wil omit scanning those talkgroups. Reference "tag" column in database

So, I have no idea what I'm doing incorrectly in the programming part.

Are you using Uniden Sentinel to program what you want to scan into a favorites list or simply entering your zip code and hoping for the best?

 

[donc13]

Are you using location control and what range do you have set? As others have mentioned, what service types do you have selected?

 

[tatersalad]

I didn't use my zip code. I have all of the service types checked. I spoke to Uniden tech support the other day and they suggested turning off location control. I use Sentinel to program specific TGID.

 

[RMason]

If I understand correctly, your sds100 receives NTIRN when you are in Ennis. When you travel to Hutchins, which is about 25miles away, you no longer receive NTIRN. What sites do you have programmed? You may be getting out of range of the Ellis County site. What antenna are you using?

 

[tatersalad]

I've used the supplied antenna and a Tram 1410 Scanner 25MHz-1300MHz VHF/UHF super discone base antenna. I have also taken my SDS200 and the Motorola MPX6000 to Hutchins and didn't have any problems receiving NTIRN. I understand that the Motorola mobile and portable radios used for work don't compare to a scanner. I have received and transmitted with those in far north Dallas. I also changed locations to Kaufman and received only one transmission from Ellis Co. late last night on the SDS100. I receive VHF P25 systems, like Hutchins without any issues. I also received Dallas PD on their simulcast on their new system. Should I change the GPS settings? What sites should I avoid and un avoid...if any?

​

 

[hiegtx]

Do "Export to hpe file, favorite list" from the SDS200 Sentinel programming and do "Import from hpe file" after changing to the SDS100 profile. Then it should be the same programming in the SDS100 as in SDS200 for that favorite list. The only thing that are left to check are the Service Types.

/Ubbe

It's not necessary to do that.

Instead, when in Sentinel;s main screen (not one of the Editor screens), select the list that you want to copy.

With your source list selected, click on that small icon, 2nd item on the second line of icons, that resembles two sheets of paper.

That will give you a pop-up asking for the name you want to use for the newly copied Favorites list,

That will create a duplicate Favorites list, with the name you specified, with the same systems as in your source list. Be sure & change your target model to the SDS100 (or whatever scanner the copy is for) & edit any specific changes you want to emply on the new list.

 

[hiegtx]

I've used the supplied antenna and a Tram 1410 Scanner 25MHz-1300MHz VHF/UHF super discone base antenna. I have also taken my SDS200 and the Motorola MPX6000 to Hutchins and didn't have any problems receiving NTIRN. I understand that the Motorola mobile and portable radios used for work don't compare to a scanner. I have received and transmitted with those in far north Dallas. I also changed locations to Kaufman and received only one transmission from Ellis Co. late last night on the SDS100. I receive VHF P25 systems, like Hutchins without any issues. I also received Dallas PD on their simulcast on their new system. Should I change the GPS settings? What sites should I avoid and un avoid...if any?

​

I think you are shooting yourself in the foot with your location settings. You know what you want to monitor, and where. These are already in your Favorites list (or should be) for the list your SDS200 uses. Juggling the range & location settings appears to exclude some of what you want to monitor in your list on the SDS100..

For the Favorites lists that I use most often, I do not use location control. I know what I can hear, from what location, and create my lists accordingly. If you have a list that works on your SDS200, then use that as a template for a list for the SDS100. (See the post above for copying notes.)

If you manually created a list for your SDS100, instead of appending from the main database (or importing via software such as ProScan), did you also manually enter the location details for the sites & departments that were entered manually? If you manually created, but did not also enter location data, then the location is used as zero degrees latitude & longitude, which is off the coast of Africa in the Atlantic Ocean. No possible range & base location entered for your scanner is going to put that location in range.

Location based scanning, with or without using a GPS, is one way for a true newbie to be able to start scanning using only the main database, their location, and a range. That gives them a head start to begin using their scanner while they get familiar enough with it to start building one or more Favorites lists for the specific systems they are interested in. Using a GPS, and location (along with the main database) is useful when you are traveling to or through areas that you are not familiar with.

From the Hutchins area, the closest transmit site of the Ellis County Simulcast is Red Oak, off to the southwest. Ennis, roughly South South East, is farther away, as is Waxahachie, roughly South Southwest of Hutchins.

I would suggest trying either your existing SDS100 list, or a copy of the SDS200's list, in the Hutchins area with location control set as off. See what you get there. I'm much farther to the northwest of those sites, in Dallas County, yet I can monitor them.

 

[tatersalad]

I suppose the reason I'm so frustrated is that in the beginning, I downloaded my favorite list from my SDS200 to the SDS100. It worked fine In Ennis. Whenever I got to Hutchins, which is 25 miles north of my current location, I don't receive anything from the Ellis Co system. I live 2 miles from the tower in Ennis off of FM 85. I don't receive anything in Kaufman whenever I was over there today, but when I entered Ellis Co on SH 34, I began to receive Ellis Co. I think I have an invisible force field around me that keeps me from receiving anything from Ellis Co lol. The location control is off too.