BCD536HP Mobile Install Issues

[JamesO]

cmdcomm,

Did you consider something like I suggested?

If the series diode Voltage drop is an issue, you could also add a relay in parallel (tied to the crank signal) with the diode that opens during engine cranking, isolating the scanner power feed. A simple diode and capacitor can be added to the relay as a time delay to allow 15-30 seconds after engine cranking for the charging system to stabilize before the relay releases and then bypasses the

The other possible option would be to add a large capacitor inside the radio for the logic circuitry and/or put a series diode and capacitor inside the radio to have self contained solution within each radio. This would raise questions about warranty coverage, but from the sounds of it, a radio will probably pay for itself in a few hours in this business? Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

 

[03msc]

cmdcomm,

Did you consider something like I suggested?

If the series diode Voltage drop is an issue, you could also add a relay in parallel (tied to the crank signal) with the diode that opens during engine cranking, isolating the scanner power feed. A simple diode and capacitor can be added to the relay as a time delay to allow 15-30 seconds after engine cranking for the charging system to stabilize before the relay releases and then bypasses the

The other possible option would be to add a large capacitor inside the radio for the logic circuitry and/or put a series diode and capacitor inside the radio to have self contained solution within each radio. This would raise questions about warranty coverage, but from the sounds of it, a radio will probably pay for itself in a few hours in this business? Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

This is what I was thinking when I read the post...some real solutions have been posted here on proper install and I don't think any of them had to do with changing the programming but, rather, adding a component.

 

[XTS3000]

Many ideas suggested here may fix cmdcomm's problems. However it sounds like he's got many vehicles with up to 10 scanners in each.

cmdcomm replaced perfectly working 996XT's with the 536, which now won't work properly. If cmdcomm has 100 vehicles with 10 536's, that's 1000 "fixes" that need to be made. Who pays for this work to be done to make the 536's function properly? Should cmdcomm have to foot the bill for fixing Uniden's defective scanners sold to his customers?

Imagine selling a customer $6000 in scanners, only to find out that they all defective and you need to charge that customer another $50-$100 per radio to fix a brand new scanner. Remember cmdcomm is a business, not just a hobbyist with 1 or 2 536's.

Maybe Uniden should put a disclaimer that their 536 scanners are NOT designed for professional use, only for hobbyists.

 

[JamesO]

Many ideas suggested here may fix cmdcomm's problems. However it sounds like he's got many vehicles with up to 10 scanners in each.

cmdcomm replaced perfectly working 996XT's with the 536, which now won't work properly. If cmdcomm has 100 vehicles with 10 536's, that's 1000 "fixes" that need to be made. Who pays for this work to be done to make the 536's function properly? Should cmdcomm have to foot the bill for fixing Uniden's defective scanners sold to his customers?

Imagine selling a customer $6000 in scanners, only to find out that they all defective and you need to charge that customer another $50-$100 per radio to fix a brand new scanner. Remember cmdcomm is a business, not just a hobbyist with 1 or 2 536's.

Maybe Uniden should put a disclaimer that their 536 scanners are NOT designed for professional use, only for hobbyists.

Sorry, not really the scanner IHMO.

Yes, the 536HP may behave differently than the 996XT, but these scanners are being used in a VERY severe environment. It is a simple Voltage drop, low Voltage swing issue.

Although the shop installs a lot of products, it does not mean the orignal installs were ideal just because they worked.

These tow trucks are stopping and starting all the time, performing jump starts and all sorts of crazy things are going on. You are putting thousands of dollars of electronics in these trucks, you could/should spend some money and extra time on the DC power supply.

Also would be interesting to see the antenna set up on these trucks. Single antenna per scanner, multiple scanners on a single antenna, LNA and multicoupler?

I am sorry, if you are a "Professional" installation shop, you would be able to EASILY identify the root cause of the problem and come up with a solution independent of the equipment supplier.

There may be a firmware solution, but even a firmware solution is to fix or cover up a DC power instability/problem that should not be really happening.

Also keep in mind that there will be a lot of variation from truck to truck due to the overall battery and vehicle condition as well as the installation configuration. There is probably a very basic threshold where these scanners get unhappy with a low Voltage drop and some trucks may trigger this and some may not.

And yes, different firmware could resolve the issue, but you may not be able to count on this. I do a lot of home networking and I have found that many wireless routers get locked up do to momentary power drops that are under 1-2 seconds. This can cause the routers to hang, the routers to load the default configuration or the routers to loose only the wireless configuration. I have wrestled with this for YEARS. I original thought it was strictly a hardware problem, however, after doing some testing, I found that 3rd party open source firmware was ROCK solid in some of the same hardware that the OE firmware just totally failed in on a regular basis. So lesson be learned, many, many variables here.

I finally decided after years of doing home networking and having so many people working from home and so many kids needing to do online things for school to include now using Online Textbooks, that I almost always install a battery back up UPS unit on all the networking gear. This cuts down on the customer outages, frustrations and the number of phone calls I receive. Sometimes you have to look at the big picture.

If these towing companies are spending thousands of dollars on radio gear, this is not for the entertainment of the drivers, this is how they make their money. A few hundred dollars is a drop in the bucket for these guys, they can loose this on a single tow job, so I do not think the towing companies would mind a more robust and more stable power supply for their gear if it works reliably.

I will try to check my 536HP in my truck when I start it, but it is not a Diesel and my battery/charging system may be VERY different than what these trucks are dealing with.

 

[03msc]

Many ideas suggested here may fix cmdcomm's problems. However it sounds like he's got many vehicles with up to 10 scanners in each.

cmdcomm replaced perfectly working 996XT's with the 536, which now won't work properly. If cmdcomm has 100 vehicles with 10 536's, that's 1000 "fixes" that need to be made. Who pays for this work to be done to make the 536's function properly? Should cmdcomm have to foot the bill for fixing Uniden's defective scanners sold to his customers?

Imagine selling a customer $6000 in scanners, only to find out that they all defective and you need to charge that customer another $50-$100 per radio to fix a brand new scanner. Remember cmdcomm is a business, not just a hobbyist with 1 or 2 536's.

Maybe Uniden should put a disclaimer that their 536 scanners are NOT designed for professional use, only for hobbyists.

They are not defective. :roll:

It has been said in those suggestions, it's really how they should've been installed in the first place...even the 996's, etc.

If you plugged something into your wall at home that required 110v but, for some reason, the power company was only supplying 75v now and then and the equipment wasn't working properly, you'd blame the equipment and not the power company? Or use a generator as an example in place of the power company...if it isn't supplying steady power, that's the fault of the equipment manufacturer that the voltage drops and not the generator manufacturer? Interesting...

 

[LIScanner101]

Did everybody already forget that 996's worked fine for cdcomm?

Did Uniden forget that this same customer bought hundreds of scanners from them previously,

And is doing the same thing now?

Maybe a simple "oh, wait you need to (do this, that and the other thing) when you install our new scanners in your application" would have been good PR?

 

[JamesO]

Did everybody already forget that 996's worked fine for cdcomm?

Did Uniden forget that this same customer bought hundreds of scanners from them previously,

And is doing the same thing now?

Maybe a simple "oh, wait you need to (do this, that and the other thing) when you install our new scanners in your application" would have been good PR?[/QUOTE

The 996 and the 536 are not the same animal for many reasons.

Just because the 996 graciously worked in the SEVERE environment, does not mean these scanner should have worked and should have been subjected to the SEVERE environment.

If I spend $6k or more on scanners to do my job, I would probably spend at least 5-10% of the total equipment price of DC line conditioning for these radios.

Maybe the 536 should be more robust, but they are being designed for the consumer electronics market. Yes they should consider other markets, but we are dealing with microprocessors and logic circuits here and the ONLY way to clear an invalid logic state is to power the device off, allow all the capacitors to drain, restart the device in a "known" logic state.

So short of restarting the equipment, resolve the power supply problem.

Hope that maybe??? Uniden can change/tweak the firmware to work around this, but this may or may not be possible, may or may not happen on the time frame the end user and installer wants and may or may not resolve the problem 100%.

 

[LIScanner101]

JamesO,

If you were cdcomm and had previous success with multiple vehicle installs of 996's what would have made you think that you would not have the same success with multiple vehicle installs of 536HP's?

You are engaging in Monday morning quarterbacking here.

 

[JamesO]

Not Monday Morning QB'ing.

If I ran the shop, I would have assumed that the swap of the scanners would work without issue.

But when I ran into issues, I would realize there were only a few choices.

1. Get with Uniden, but they will not have a solution in a timely manner and likely may not have a solution.
2. Put back the install as it was.
3. Realize there is an issue and come up with a solution on my own for the end customer.

Not sure who is sitting on $10k or more worth of hardware.

If is is the towing companies, I would want my installer to find a solution.

If is is the installer, the issue is pretty obvious, I would need to come up with a solution.

Sorry, but I totally agree with O3msc, if you cannot provide stable power, you get what you get. I recently had a Dentist Office that had a harmonic power problem causing the UPS units to rapidly switch on and off depleting the batteries. After a lot of testing it was determined the problem was in the office suite. The Doctor did not want to invest in the reworking of the power in the suite as the lease is up in 6 months, so we went with a more expensive dual conversion UPS unit at least for the server to keep it alive.

It is a bandaid, but this was the final solution as only some UPS units were sensitive to the harmonic issue.

The problem is most UPS units are designed to protect against low/no Voltage, not unstable Voltage. The UPS venders are not interested in designing/redesigning their units to deal with line harmonics/60 Hz phase jitter. So the solution was pretty simple, get a UPS unit that will mask the problem until the Doctor decides what if anything they plan on doing with the power in the suite, assuming they resign their lease and stay in the facility.

 

[03msc]

JamesO,

If you were cdcomm and had previous success with multiple vehicle installs of 996's what would have made you think that you would not have the same success with multiple vehicle installs of 536HP's?

You are engaging in Monday morning quarterbacking here.

If it was me I would have tried one install to see if there were any issues. Completely different scanner so no guarantee that it will behave the same. You install one, see if there are any issues, and if so then you take the necessary steps to install properly to make the other however many work.

Am I the only one who thinks this is the logical approach?

 

[LIScanner101]

So then you both agree that the NEW, FLAGSHIP Uniden scanner is a poor choice for multiple installs in fleet vehicles as compared to OLDER Uniden scanners?

Guys, I get it, loud and clear - there is an issue, and cdcomm needs to resolve it. That's patently obvious and I think everybody knows that.

My entire point is that the NEW scanner should be even BETTER than the OLD scanner. That's all.

I am sure cdcomm will do what he has to do, but if I were him I would have a sour taste in my mouth about Uniden scanners going forward.

 

[JamesO]

New is rarely better!!

It is all about designing down to a price and not up to a level of performance/reliability.

The NEW scanner just uncovered and OLD problem that should have never slipped through the cracks.

Sorry, crappy install from day 1 for the environment IHMO.

Uniden may or may not have control over this issue. There is always a timing issue with digital circuits when power drops out. Unfortunately the 536HP just is very sensitive to this specific low Voltage drop out. There are capacitors inside the 536HP that do not discharge fast enough, hold a logic state high, and causes the scanner to be stupid. Maybe there is a firmware solution, maybe not.

 

[LIScanner101]

JamesO,

Thank you once again for supporting my position that the new Uniden scanners are a worse choice for fleet vehicle installs than their OLDER scanners.

I'm sure Uniden is very happy to lose potential new fleet vehicle installers who are reading this thread.

 

[LIScanner101]

New is rarely better!!

It is all about designing down to a price and not up to a level of performance/reliability.

The NEW scanner just uncovered an OLD problem that should have never slipped through the cracks.

Sorry, but your answer makes absolutely no sense.

WHAT old problem? You mean the successful install of multiple 996's by cdcomm? You mean THAT problem? How can you call it a problem if it worked?

Do you want to rethink your position here?

 

[mikewazowski]

Gentlemen, let's try and keep the thread focused on solving the problem. No more off topic posts.

 

[JamesO]

JamesO,

Thank you once again for supporting my position that the new Uniden scanners are a worse choice for fleet vehicle installs than their OLDER scanners.

I'm sure Uniden is very happy to lose potential new fleet vehicle installers who are reading this thread.

Not supporting YOUR position in any way, shape or form.

We are not going to agree on this one.

As I mentioned, just because something is a newer model does not mean it is always superior to an older model. I see features and horsepower stripped from things all the time in many products.

But in this case with the 536HP, it is just a different animal, my guess is the problem has something to do with the audio/recording circuitry or muting. Could the design be beat on further, yes, I assume it could have been, but the problem is very few designers, software programmers or QC folks actually uses what they design, program or QC and very few understand the SEVERE usage of a product.

If the power is stabilized in these mobile installs, this is a non issue. END OF STORY.

I am on topic, I have offered solutions and I have dealt with strange things with this in the past.

As I mentioned, either wait on Uniden and HOPE they have a solution or solve the issue with the installs, I could have this sorted in less than an hour and for about $50 per truck.

 

[LIScanner101]

I agree that we are not going to agree on this one.

You take the position that Uniden deliberately "stripped" their new scanners of being used in a manner similar to their older scanners. That makes no sense unless Uniden is insane.

I take the position that Uniden merely goofed and is being mum on the issue aside from a PM from UPMan to cdcomm.

I think we are not going to see eye to eye on that.

Getting back to the problem at hand, cdcomm will fix this one way or the other at additional expense.

 

[JamesO]

I agree that we are not going to agree on this one.

You take the position that Uniden deliberately "stripped" their new scanners of being used in a manner similar to their older scanners. That makes no sense unless Uniden is insane.

I take the position that Uniden merely goofed and is being mum on the issue aside from a PM from UPMan to cdcomm.

I think we are not going to see eye to eye on that.

Getting back to the problem at hand, cdcomm will fix this one way or the other at additional expense.

You are putting words in my mouth, Uniden did not strip their new scanners of being uses in a manner similar to their older products.

It is a very simple situaiton where the current product is far more sensitive to low Voltage drop outs than the prior unit. Was it intentionally designed in this manner, no, I doubt is was, but component choice, tolerances and other things caused this. But this current model scanner is also a bit more complex, just look what the display states when you power the scanner off.

There is constant writing to a from a SD card and writing to any solid start device requires a stable power source. Not sure this is the specific problem, but this is one of many challenges as you put more logic, processing and memory in any device.

 

[LIScanner101]

My tablets and smartphones have microSD cards in them.

None of them "care" if they are plugged into my power taps in my cars or truck when I turn my vehicles on or off.

The new Unidens DO "care", but they shouldn't - and that has been my point from the start of this thread.

Stop carrying the water for Uniden. They goofed. Their product is no different than a zillion other SD card-equipped devices - or at least they SHOULD be.

 

[03msc]

LIScanner101, you put words in our mouth (or mine, at least). You, again, are blaming the scanner and not the install.

Solutions have been offered throughout this thread and my point in posting is to say that my input is that those suggestions should be followed for this install (and any install, really) to maintain proper voltage. I believe that is the solution that is needed here. You continue to blame Uniden and that is not finding a solution. (See my example earlier about the power company or generators). To put it plainly: NO I do not agree with you.

To be clear that I'm on-topic, my suggestion to the OP is to follow the suggestions outlined by a few others in this thread to properly install the new 536 in the environment in which the OP is wanting to install them or select a different scanner if he doesn't want to install them properly.