BCD536HP Simulcast issue not fixable?

[KC2YQW]

I'm a little irritated at this point having spent several days trying to program a new county P25II system into a $500 scanner only to be told that Simulcast Systems do not work on the radio. I purchased the scanner about 4-5 years ago knowing the county would be upgrading to phase 2, and since the new system went up I have tried to connect to it, only to have the scanner not be able to find a CC for the system.

To my amazement, the response was to purchase a radio that is more expensive! Another words there's no fix/patch/update to resolve this issue. I find that hard to believe, but if it is true, I WILL NOT be purchasing another uniden radio in the hopes that the problem is "Fixed." So since members in NJ cant seem to point me in the right direction, I am hoping someone in the tech support section could help out and perhaps explain what exactly is the problem. Sorry for my rant, its just the frustration boiling over at this point.

Currently I am trying to program the Ocean County P25II system into the BCD536HP. I have included the HPE file below which I think includes the current settings and such. When I go to the northern part of the county, the radio sorta works when in discovery mode, but not in scan mode. When I get home in the southern part of the county, the radio cant even find a data signal to get the trunk information. Its as if I was missing the frequencies. All data was pulled from the RR database which I made sure to update.

Actions I have taken so far:
Checked antenna connections, all are fine
Checked the county's FCC license and I did find 7 frequencies not listed in the RR database. I added them to the site list, however still no luck.
Checked that attenuation was on, no change, and was advised to turn it back off.
Tested with 3 other 700Mhz systems, NJICS, Burlington County, and Atlantic county. Atlantic county sorta works but not 100% likely due to distance. NJICS and Burlington county work fine with no issues.

I'm simply looking for a solution other than "Hey buy a more expensive product and it MIGHT fix your problem." I am willing to accept I screwed something up in programming, (and believe that will likely be the case) but replacement is not an option for me at the moment.

 

[BenScan]

Other than upgrading the scanner there are only a couple of options. Only use the scanner in certain spots where simulcast is not an issue, or the scanner is closer to only 1 of the towers, compared to all of the other towers on the simulcast system. Another option is to buy a yagi antenna, cable, and connectors and aim the antenna towards one of towers, and only one of the towers mentioned above. Yes, it sucks that Uniden did not build a better product to begin with. That being said, the SDS 100 and 200 do work much better for simulcast.

Good luck & Happy Scanning!

 

[cfsimmont]

Welcome to scanning! There are no guarantees with any consumer grade equipment, some may be more suitable in certain situations than others, however just becouse the scanner you purchased covers the frequencies and modes used in your area doesn't mean it will work to your liking. Your problem isn't just a "Uniden" issue, its a "Scanner" issue. If the system that you are trying to monitor is a simulcast system, ANY scanner can have difficulties even the more expensive. There are certain things that may improve reception but, with the advanced digital trunked systems being used throughout the country today they are a far cry from the simple single frequency radio systems that were popular years ago.

 

[ChrisABQ]

If you're the least bit computer savvy, check out SDR dongles for your computer. $35 each dongle with free programs on the internet. I listen to my local P25 P2 system here in Albuquerque and I'm able to stream directly to my phone. No simulcast distortion, no $700 price tag. Much better reception and you hear EVERY communication because it's NOT a scanner.
There's ton's of information on this site and videos on Youtube.com.

My preferred software, SDRTrunk and Trunking Recorder, both FREE. Takes about 30 minutes total to setup.

Streaming over the phone means you can take it mobile, anywhere on Earth that you can get a cell signal.

You can always sell your scanner as well, there's a classified section on this site.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Have a read at what simulcast distortion is here. It's perhaps the most well documented & discussed issue on these forums. Search & you'll unearth thousands of posts on the subject. There are a number of workarounds mentioned in the link I provided but they work in very few cases. New Jersey is chock full of simulcast systems so if I were you I'd sell the 536HP to go towards an SDS200. You won't regret it

 

[tvengr]

Where did you get the frequency list for Ocean County Simulcast? The database shows only 11 frequencies and you have 18.

 

[JoeBearcat]

I would not wait for a solution that re-invents the laws of physics, but that is just me. There is no firmware solution possible that will fix the hardware limitations. If it were me (again), I would sell the 536 and put that money toward an SDS200 if none of the workarounds work for you.

 

[ofd8001]

Here are some other things you can try that may, emphasize may, improve the situation:

1. Set the site attenuator to On
2. Tinker with the digital settings (Manual/Auto) and threshold value. Be patient, there are many combinations
3. Think about a different antenna. The issue with simulcast is that you are getting too much signal from multiple sites. The best simulcast decode I got was when my antenna cable was broken. (Of course the other systems went to heck). Some folks have had success with a bent paper clip (yeah, honestly).
4. Try a different room for the scanner (yeah, this simulcast thing is that temperamental).
5. Yagi antennas pointed directly at a site have been known to be helpful.

An SDS model will significantly improve the simulcast problem, but not completely eliminate it.

 

[JoeBearcat]

Actually, the Yagi method key is to null all but one site which may mean the Yagi is not pointed at any particular site.

 

[K4EET]

Hi @KC2YQW. @ofd8001 has some good suggestions that I was getting ready to make. I do want to emphasize their last sentence:

An SDS model will significantly improve the simulcast problem, but not completely eliminate it.

You have to generally put up a good fight to receive a simulcast system’s traffic without errors as much as is possible. But in the end, don’t expect it to be perfect. The closer you do come to that perfect decode, the happier you will be. So take your time and plan your “attack” on the problem (Simulcast Distortion) carefully.

With respect to yagi antennas and their “cousins” like corner reflectors, parabolic grids, etc., what you are striving for are well a defined main gain lobe with deep nulls between the minor lobes. The higher the gain the better as long as you align the antenna with nulls from all transmitter sites but one. You will have to “play” with the alignment from there and “play” with the in-line signal attenuation until you get the best decoded signal possible. Note that this is not a 15 minute job. It will take some quality time working with the antenna alignment, in-line signal attenuator and the other parameters of your scanner as mentioned by @ofd8001 above.

I am in a simulcast situation with a Uniden BCD536HP scanner and it receives quite well. All that I had to do antenna-wise was go with an indoor quarter wave for 800 MHz mag-mounted to a metal table on a specific corner. I have plans to install an A/B coaxial switch to switch between that antenna and a broadband discone antenna mounted outside above roof level for when I want to scan other systems that are not simulcast.

Hope that helps some…

73, Dave K4EET

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I'm a little irritated at this point having spent several days trying to program a new county P25II system into a $500 scanner only to be told that Simulcast Systems do not work on the radio. I purchased the scanner about 4-5 years ago knowing the county would be upgrading to phase 2, and since the new system went up I have tried to connect to it, only to have the scanner not be able to find a CC for the system.

To my amazement, the response was to purchase a radio that is more expensive! Another words there's no fix/patch/update to resolve this issue. I find that hard to believe, but if it is true, I WILL NOT be purchasing another uniden radio in the hopes that the problem is "Fixed." So since members in NJ cant seem to point me in the right direction, I am hoping someone in the tech support section could help out and perhaps explain what exactly is the problem. Sorry for my rant, its just the frustration boiling over at this point.

Currently I am trying to program the Ocean County P25II system into the BCD536HP. I have included the HPE file below which I think includes the current settings and such. When I go to the northern part of the county, the radio sorta works when in discovery mode, but not in scan mode. When I get home in the southern part of the county, the radio cant even find a data signal to get the trunk information. Its as if I was missing the frequencies. All data was pulled from the RR database which I made sure to update.

Actions I have taken so far:
Checked antenna connections, all are fine
Checked the county's FCC license and I did find 7 frequencies not listed in the RR database. I added them to the site list, however still no luck.
Checked that attenuation was on, no change, and was advised to turn it back off.
Tested with 3 other 700Mhz systems, NJICS, Burlington County, and Atlantic county. Atlantic county sorta works but not 100% likely due to distance. NJICS and Burlington county work fine with no issues.

I'm simply looking for a solution other than "Hey buy a more expensive product and it MIGHT fix your problem." I am willing to accept I screwed something up in programming, (and believe that will likely be the case) but replacement is not an option for me at the moment.

I am using same radio here in Florida on a simulcast phase II system and apart from some crummy audio now and then, it works reliably. I would not discount the possibility that you have some basic settings wrong. If you can find someone local to you with same radio and on same system, you should compare notes. It is possible that your system is encrypted or that Motorola is using the TDMA control channel. not sure the x36 radios understand that scheme.

 

[GTR8000]

It is possible that your system is encrypted

He has plenty of clear talkgroups in his favorites list. The whole system is not encrypted.

or that Motorola is using the TDMA control channel.

MSI does not yet support TDMA control channels for ASTRO 25 systems.

not sure the x36 radios understand that scheme.

They do not, but in this case that fact is irrelevant.

 

[rr60]

The comments here all on target. For me here in Jersey, both my x36’s have been poor on any P25 LSM system no matter what. I gave up many years ago trying to get them to decode reliably. Garbage in garbage out.

As a result of my x36 experience I have not been able to buy anything. I too have read the 100/200 threads and I just can’t get there. Done with that.

Many other paths exist to decode P25 LSM in the RR forums. My .02 cut your losses when you can.

 

[trentbob]

I'm a little irritated at this point having spent several days trying to program a new county P25II system into a $500 scanner only to be told that Simulcast Systems do not work on the radio. I purchased the scanner about 4-5 years ago knowing the county would be upgrading to phase 2, and since the new system went up I have tried to connect to it, only to have the scanner not be able to find a CC for the system.

To my amazement, the response was to purchase a radio that is more expensive! Another words there's no fix/patch/update to resolve this issue. I find that hard to believe, but if it is true, I WILL NOT be purchasing another uniden radio in the hopes that the problem is "Fixed." So since members in NJ cant seem to point me in the right direction, I am hoping someone in the tech support section could help out and perhaps explain what exactly is the problem. Sorry for my rant, its just the frustration boiling over at this point.

Currently I am trying to program the Ocean County P25II system into the BCD536HP. I have included the HPE file below which I think includes the current settings and such. When I go to the northern part of the county, the radio sorta works when in discovery mode, but not in scan mode. When I get home in the southern part of the county, the radio cant even find a data signal to get the trunk information. Its as if I was missing the frequencies. All data was pulled from the RR database which I made sure to update.

Actions I have taken so far:
Checked antenna connections, all are fine
Checked the county's FCC license and I did find 7 frequencies not listed in the RR database. I added them to the site list, however still no luck.
Checked that attenuation was on, no change, and was advised to turn it back off.
Tested with 3 other 700Mhz systems, NJICS, Burlington County, and Atlantic county. Atlantic county sorta works but not 100% likely due to distance. NJICS and Burlington county work fine with no issues.

I'm simply looking for a solution other than "Hey buy a more expensive product and it MIGHT fix your problem." I am willing to accept I screwed something up in programming, (and believe that will likely be the case) but replacement is not an option for me at the moment.

I know this is frustrating for you and I don't know what kind of research you did on radio reference before purchasing your radio but given what you have in your area of New Jersey it would have been worth spending a few hundred dollars more for a simulcast capable radio.

Around 2014 when I purchased both the 436 and 536, my County was using a type ll smartzone system and the radios worked great. Unfortunately in late 2015 we switched to a tdma 700 MHz phase ll system with one site called simulcast and 24 towers that were very close to each other and were simultaneously transmitting the same thing. It was simulcast distortion hell secondary to LSM.

We tried every gimmick in the book but ended up using Motorola professional radios at the newspaper I worked at to receive my County. The x36 radios did work for some in the center and North part of the county where the towers were less dense but it could be hit-or-miss and sometimes unreliable. When the sds100 came out, they needed some firmware updates before they actually worked on my system and they didn't have the volume punch that my apx7000 had but they work great. I also have the sds200. Unfortunately our police went 100% encrypted but I'm retired now anyway.

So as has been mentioned trying to isolate reception to 1 tower can work unless the towers are just too close to each other. People talk about p25 threshold and perhaps a longer system hold time but honestly that stuff doesn't work.

So as Dave mentioned above you really want a desensitized antenna that will give you poor reception in an attempt to isolate reception to one tower. So he is using a quarter wave 800 MHz whip probably three or four inches long. People have also used paper clips, another method is to drill a hole in a empty paint can and put the rubber duck of a 436 in the hole.

As far as a directional beam, it's tough if the towers are dense.

Here's what you're dealing with...



Good luck with your endeavors attacking this issue... Bob.

 

[dave3825]

told that Simulcast Systems do not work on the radio.

That's a pretty bold statement that's not entirely true .

There are many people who own 536 scanners and have no issues at all and there are many people who do have issues. Like Frequency1 said,

The 536 is notorious for hit or miss reception of simulcast systems.

Hit or miss, its either gonna work or it wont work. It all depends on antenna, location your scanning from and where the towers are located. If your radio is trying to latch on to more than one transmitter you will have problems and that was my problem at one point.

Actions I have taken so far:

Checked the county's FCC license and I did find 7 frequencies not listed in the RR database. I added them to the site list, however still no luck.

The system is up and running and is in the database with the proper, confirmed, known to be working freqs. I would remove the extra freqs you added since that is definitely not your problem as others are scanning the system with only the freqs listed in the database.

Prior to buying my 436, I did a ton of research and saw many already existing issues with simulcast distortion. I also saw that while the x36hp series did not work well for some people, it worked perfect for others. All the warning signs for x36 series and simulcast distortion were here on these forums way back in 2015. I went ahead and purchased my 436 in 2015. Where I used to live, about 3 miles away was iffy meaning like others said, one room it would work and another it would not. I did the paper clip thing and in the room it did not work well in, it was much better and almost perfect. I purchased the Remtronix 800mhz antenna and that made it better. I lived right between 2 transmitters on the same site.

 

[Ezra]

I have similar problems in Miami with Miami, Miami Dade, and Miami Beach all P25 simulcast. I do have a 800 mhz 16 element Yagi and if I point to a particular site that clears up the problem. Well it's not actually pointed directly at the site but I just played around with the direction a bit and it started working and then I noted the position and for a year it's worked fine in that position for that system. I started with a 4 element yagi but the the 16 element works better.

The 436 works well in some parts of town and I'm guessing it in the places where there is a dominant site with good signal, like anywhere on the edge of town it works fine as the scanner is hearing only one site. But when you are equidistant to two sites (in town) it all falls apart. Thus the yagi, which will select a single site based on direction. I even played around with a Faraday cage and that works to some extent but the Yagi works better. So for a base setup it'a s totally usable solution.

For mobile, the only solution I found is stay on the edge of town.

TerraWave 900 MHz 15 dBi Yagi Antenna
Brand: TerraWave
Specific Freq. (MHz):824-960
Gain (dBd):12.86
Maximum Power Input (Watts):50

 

[Citywide173]

When did you purchase the 536? It is a decent radio for many places, but the saying "caveat emptor" definitely applies. I understand that complete replacement is not an option at this point in time, but if you have had the radio since it's introduction (2014) you have to accept that the radio is "old technology" even though it is still offered for sale.

You are not limited to Uniden products and selling the 536 to offset the purchase price of an SDS series, P25RX or P25RX-II, Unication pager or SDR dongle might be worth looking into-there may be a learning curve, but you might be able to get what you want at a lower overall financial outlay. You might also want to look at the "paper clip antenna" suggestion that can be found by searching the board.