Bouncing signals off the moon

[WB3DYE]

When Herb Krumich finishes setting up and testing his latest amateur radio installation, he’ll be able to use the moon as a sort of mirror to bounce a transmission to the other side of the world.


https://www.citizensvoice.com/news/man-will-use-moon-to-bounce-radio-signals-to-other-side-of-world-1.2534215

 

[Pete_uk]

Moon bounce is quite popular. I did read a report that suggested that for the Lunar LOP-G station to operate this would have to cease as it will require a quiet RF environment.
I hope the report was mistaken.

 

[wtp]

EME...
144.0-144.05
222.0-222.025
432.0-432.07
and think big...

Welcome to 6m EME

Working REAL long path on 50 MHz moonbounce is now very possible - even with single yagi antennas - and really brings magic to the "Magic Band"!

www.bigskyspaces.com

i could not find any dedicated 6m freqs, yet.

 

[Token]

Moon bounce is quite popular. I did read a report that suggested that for the Lunar LOP-G station to operate this would have to cease as it will require a quiet RF environment.
I hope the report was mistaken.

By comparison to many other signals that end up bouncing, intentionally and accidentally, off of the Moon ham radio stuff is pretty small potatoes. If Hams can't do EME because of the LOP-G, many other signals would also have to be stopped, some of them unintentional and thus difficult to make sure they never happen. In other words, I would not put a lot of faith in that.

The Moon has even been used as an INTEL source, since radar (and other interesting signal) transmissions from the Earth often get accidentally bounced off the Moon.

T!

 

[kayn1n32008]

I recently watched a YouTube video of a guy using a 25m radio telescope to bounce 23cm SSB off the moon. Received Signal was like S9+

I can only find it on Facebook. A fellow named Alex Ritter posted the video.

 

[mikewazowski]

My dentist was an EME guy. Would trade dental work for work on his EME array. He was also the crane guy's dentist.

4 2m Cushcraft Boomers and matching 70cm Boomers just inside the 2m antennas. Used an HF rig with transverters and custom amps.

I made a few EME contacts using his equipment but working VHF contests with the array level was the best.

Google W5UN if you want to see a serious EME station.

 

[Firekite]

Absolutely insane.

 

[mm]

most 6 meter EME IS NOW DIGITAL on 50.190 MHZ.

In fact Lance w7gj from FRENCHTOWN montana is on right now from the seychelle islands, indian ocean , as I type this operating as S79GJ.

in the past couple of hours s79gj just worked
ur0mrc ukraine, s57rr slovenia, g8bcg england, oz1djj denmark, with a single 8 element 6 meter antenna off of the moon.

W7GJ 2019 6m EME DXpedition to LI75rg in the Seychelles

 

[prcguy]

I had a single M2 2M5WL Yagi years ago and they are 33ft long. This guy has 32 of them, yikes!

Absolutely insane.

View attachment 75500

 

[jwt873]

I've got a friend who's done moon bounce at 47 gHz. He's playing with point to point 77 gHz right now, but hasn't managed to bounce it off the moon yet

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

The Moon as a passive reflector has been used by any number of "Three Letter Agency's" as ears in the sky.

Moon Bounce Elint — Central Intelligence Agency

Moon Bounce Elint, Frank Eliot. The capability of enemy anti-aircraft and anti-ballistic-missile systems, naturally a matter of intense interest to us, depends in part on the capability of a number of sub-systems, one of the most important of which is the radars used for target acquisition and...

www.cia.gov

I have had opportunity's to visit of what's left of some of these projects at scatter's field sites of the the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) - the big horn antennas and such-- they are still quite impressive.

To my official guides: "what did you guys hear with these things ?"

Just big smiles as reply's



Lauri

 

[Token]

The Moon as a passive reflector has been used by any number of "Three Letter Agency's" as ears in the sky.

Moon Bounce Elint — Central Intelligence Agency

Moon Bounce Elint, Frank Eliot. The capability of enemy anti-aircraft and anti-ballistic-missile systems, naturally a matter of intense interest to us, depends in part on the capability of a number of sub-systems, one of the most important of which is the radars used for target acquisition and...

www.cia.gov

I have had opportunity's to visit of what's left of some of these projects at scatter's field sites of the the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) - the big horn antennas and such-- they are still quite impressive.

To my official guides: "what did you guys hear with these things ?"

I have worked on several of those systems. I missed it myself, was a bit too late into the game, but I do still work with a guy, yes, he is still working today with like 58 years service, who worked on the Sugar Grove 600 foot dish before it was canceled.

T!

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

As a graduate student I had access to a large 30 metre dish, which at that time was being used for some deep space soundings. Hooked into its Cassegrain feed was a blowtorch of a 900 MHz transmitter with corresponding receivers.

When we were not using it for its intended purposes, I would point it at the moon and 'ping' it with brief second pulses-- then delite in listening to the return signal. It would ping back in ~2.5 seconds; To this date I can think of nothing that has solidified the concept of the speed of light better for me than our playing around with that moon bouncing. **

Listening to a return analog signal is also an experience. Since the signal illuminates a huge sphere, the return signal is mixed. The portion that strikes the closest to the earth returns first, while the signal that returns from the poles is slightly delayed. The effect?.. a haunting hollow sound.... it has to be heard to be appreciated.

"Follow the Yellow Brick Road " stuff......***

Lauri

____________________________________________________________________

**The Moon is approximately 384,000 kilometers away (768 K's for a two way path.) Light travels at approximately 300,000 K's per second...... 768,000/300,000 is about 2.5 seconds for a round trip to the moon.



***Never sung that into a mic while under the influence of helium ??... awww

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[ladn]

blowtorch of a 900 MHz transmitter with corresponding receivers

Gotta ask-with that kind of power, were you ever able to detect a "double bounce" (E-M-E-M-E)?

I remember from a tour at the DSN at Goldstone some years back being told when they fire up the really big guns, sometimes birds literally got cooked in mid-flight when they transited the beam path (obviously they didn't heed the NOTAM) .

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

"...........Gotta ask-with that kind of power, were you ever able to detect a "double bounce" (E-M-E-M-E)?.............."


To tell the truth, I never look'd into it. Certainly we had the ability to multi-bounce signals back and forth- but I was just playing around. We really weren't supposed to do that- my department frown'd on grad students free-lancing- but who could resist ??


The transmitter was quite the monster- housed in its own trailer with enuff RF hazard signs to scare off the most curious visitor.... the output mesauring in Ziga Watt's. **

The most awesome thing- for me however, was to stand at the base of the dish as it moved from one sector of the sky to another. What marvelous things I knew it would detect ! - just to sweep it thru the Milky Way was un régal sublime.



Lauri



______________________________________________________


** I never saw it bring down any birds-- and maybe we were remiss (?) in those halcyon days- but we weren't required to file Notices to Airmen.


This attachment kind'a diverts from the subject- but its a very readable treatise on high power'd microwave- for those so curious. These powerful beauty's can knock your socks off !

http://hotstreamer.deanostoybox.com/TeslaCoils/OtherPapers/NorthReport/northrept.pdf

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[Firekite]

output mesauring in Ziga Watt's

What’s that, now?

 

[prcguy]

When I hired into Hughes Aircraft in the 80s, the department next to mine made Gyrotron stuff. They would test them at night and warn everyone in the building to remove any unexposed film from the area and they routed all the power for the huge Hughes complex into one area to power the Gyrotron. Power output for some models was in the several hundred kW range in MM wave bands and they fed a horn antenna pointing down into a deep hole in the ground. Not sure what the testing was for and we knew better than to ask.

"...........Gotta ask-with that kind of power, were you ever able to detect a "double bounce" (E-M-E-M-E)?.............."


To tell the truth, I never look'd into it. Certainly we had the ability to multi-bounce signals back and forth- but I was just playing around. We really weren't supposed to do that- my department frown'd on grad students free-lancing- but who could resist ??


The transmitter was quite the monster- housed in its own trailer with enuff RF hazard signs to scare off the most curious visitor.... the output mesauring in Ziga Watt's. **

The most awesome thing- for me however, was to stand at the base of the dish as it moved from one sector of the sky to another. What marvelous things I knew it would detect ! - just to sweep it thru the Milky Way was un régal sublime.



Lauri



______________________________________________________


** I never saw it bring down any birds-- and maybe we were remiss (?) in those halcyon days- but we weren't required to file Notices to Airmen.


This attachment kind'a diverts from the subject- but its a very readable treatise on high power'd microwave- for those so curious. These powerful beauty's can knock your socks off !

http://hotstreamer.deanostoybox.com/TeslaCoils/OtherPapers/NorthReport/northrept.pdf

.
.
.

 

[VK3RX]

I remember from a tour at the DSN at Goldstone some years back being told when they fire up the really big guns, sometimes birds literally got cooked in mid-flight when they transited the beam path

We have a DSN site here (link below). I did some work a few years ago related to amendments to the restricted airspace around the site due to a new dish and output power.

Regarding birds, it would be a case of big sky, small birds, smallish beamwidth, and a case of really really bad luck if one got zapped

Note the Antennas > Tracking Today > DSN Now link on the right:

Canberra Deep Space Communication Complex

 

[zz0468]

A small handful of years ago, the San Bernardino Microwave Society had regular use of the 40 meter dish at Owens Valley Radio Observatory. Two bands were activated, 1296 and 10 GHz.

1296 sounded like a 20 meter band opening, and on 10, they could pick and choose what crater to bounce the signal off of.

EME is still a pretty heady technical challenge, but some of the digital modes have lowered the bar to the point that most hams can at least afford to do it.

 

[zz0468]

Anyone remember the 7 MHz EME test run by HAARP about 15 years ago?