Broadcastify Receives Cease and Desist from Terre Haute, IN City Attorney

[prcguy]

I completely disagree and this goes way beyond our hobby. Its all about police depts and city attorneys making up laws and trying to push people around with their illegal misuse of power.

Anytime a feed is squashed its more ammunition for another city to do the same. This needs to be brought up in front of everyone in the affected city, like presenting the problem to your local news paper and pointing out there is nothing on a feed that cannot be heard by someone with a simple hobby police scanner.

Then bring up the cost of the city going encrypted and that they can hide behind that encryption with officers using racial slurs and abuse of power with no oversight from the tax paying public via monitoring. Let them know your tax money pays for their radio system and you won't stand for any unnecessary encryption.

Does the city hold any public meetings where they discuss future business and city problems? That would be a great place to bring up this problem and get some needed attention.

When you bring this problem to the attention of everyone in your city they will see the abuse of power, the cost of encryption and many people outside our hobby will be on your side.
prcguy

How about you just do the decent thing and comply with towns wishes. Broadcastify is quickly killing our hobby and now that there is a cease desist request you want to fight it? That makes no sense, if the owner and users of broadcastify wish there to be anything left to stream over the course of the next ten years or so do the decent thing and take down the stream it's that simple. If you had respect for our first responders you would respect their wishes its as simple as that. And why do we need streams in the first place if I want to know what's going on I turn on my radio and listen. Why do people in New York need to to hear Los Angeles. I'm in the Chicago suburbs and only need to hear what's going on around me if I wanted to hear someplace else I would travel to that location. And the example of the Iowa dispatch center asking for the scanner listeners help isn't valid how could anyone outside of the immediate area ever call in with honest info come on. No way anyone fifty to a hundred miles away is going to be of use to the dispatcher asking for help let alone people on the other side country listening just for fun. Let's all remember that with this great hobby comes common sense rules so if we all use common sense instead of petty complaining to combat encryption we might actually see a change but if we continue down the road we are on encryption will become the normal and that would be a great disservice to our hobby. Use common sense either put a half hour or so delay on these feeds to give police and fire time to do what they need to, to secure a scene or take down the streams all together I have never seen the point in streams somebody out there has to agree with me. My state is encrypting alot of communications that used to be in the clear and every time I enquire why with a ranking police or fire officer they say it's because of the online streaming. Save our hobby and stop streaming!

 

[kibler]

Terre Haute, IN City Attorney

ATTENTION:
It appears that there are 171 Public Safety Agencies providing a Feed to Broadcastify for there community! They don't seem to have any issues with this! What is your problem?

 

[radioman2001]

Quote" Probably get me banned, but more power to them! I personally am tired of having civilians showing up or doing "drive bys" just to see what is going on. All it take is for one 415 (person w/ gun) to shoot one of those "listeners who just happened to drive by" and it leads back to here.

Well eventually with all Police comms encrypted (as has been stated the reasons are here) I see social media taking over and being an ever bigger PIA in the Police butt. Would not take much to create a group with call ins from citizens which would probably result in the onlookers getting there BEFORE the Police. Instead of locking out the people that pay your salaries for protection they should work with them. I am not advocating that sensitive channels not be encrypted, but allowing the citizens hear whats going on should be allowed. I doubt that there is anything that any Police Officer ,Department or Town,County, or City lawyer can do to prevent onlookers, and any one that says they can is talking through their hat or worse.

One advantage of the previous scenario is that the FCC can't do anything about it in the sense of dessiminating information since the group originates it. I don't endorse anyone company but I believe the one that starts with a T would work quite well.

In areas that have total radio blackout I would actually encourage such a system, maybe started by the Press.

 

[kd7kdc]

A few years ago the United States Supreme Court decreed that it IS LEGAL for people to film law enforcement interactions. That was from the court that included conservative justice Antonin Scalia.

Edit:
Now it looks like now they are going in the opposite direction.

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[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Quote" Probably get me banned, but more power to them! I personally am tired of having civilians showing up or doing "drive bys" just to see what is going on. All it take is for one 415 (person w/ gun) to shoot one of those "listeners who just happened to drive by" and it leads back to here.

Well eventually with all Police comms encrypted (as has been stated the reasons are here) I see social media taking over and being an ever bigger PIA in the Police butt. Would not take much to create a group with call ins from citizens which would probably result in the onlookers getting there BEFORE the Police. Instead of locking out the people that pay your salaries for protection they should work with them. I am not advocating that sensitive channels not be encrypted, but allowing the citizens hear whats going on should be allowed. I doubt that there is anything that any Police Officer ,Department or Town,County, or City lawyer can do to prevent onlookers, and any one that says they can is talking through their hat or worse.

One advantage of the previous scenario is that the FCC can't do anything about it in the sense of dessiminating information since the group originates it. I don't endorse anyone company but I believe the one that starts with a T would work quite well.

In areas that have total radio blackout I would actually encourage such a system, maybe started by the Press.

There is a group APP called WAZE that points out where police cars are located (spotted).

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.waze&hl=en

I see something like this being enhanced with all those "useless" scanners after encryption is widespread.

Bear with me on this:

All police radios leak a bit of local oscillator (LO) signal from their receivers. The frequency is predictable based on the model of the radio. The strength and distance is a bit short of WiFi but it is unique and identifiable. A modern scanner with connection to a PC or smartphone by wired or BlueTooth connection can report those received signals and the GPS location of the receivers to a database. Thus the community can identify where public safety activity is occurring. It cannot discriminate between a police, fire or garbage truck radio on a trunked system, however the wonks that code stuff might be able to figure out a garbage route over time and code that data differently.

If this sounds a bit far fetched, I can assure you it isn't. The DOT has considered using the LO leakage of car radios and cellphones to track traffic flow.

 

[radioman2001]

Well what's scary is they are already using the TPS monitoring transmitters to track cars. They are unique, low power and easily intercepted.

I am familiar with WAZE and really was not impressed with the results of PD spotting, traffic info was just OK based upon the time since entered.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Well what's scary is they are already using the TPS monitoring transmitters to track cars. They are unique, low power and easily intercepted.

I am familiar with WAZE and really was not impressed with the results of PD spotting, traffic info was just OK based upon the time since entered.

They are using Sunpass readers here in FL to track cars. I should collect all those abandoned toll RFID's from garage sales and Goodwill stores and fill my car up with them. I would be a cluster of rogue traffic.

 

[Rred]

"using the TPS monitoring transmitters to track cars."
Who and where is this actually being done? I can't seem to find any reference to it beyond theory.
And, FWIW, the folks at VWG (Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche) are now using wheel rotation counts and software in the mandatory ABS systems to determine low tire pressure, eliminating the extra cost of the TPS units, eliminating the battery life and tire changing issues, reducing costs, and reducing unsprung wheel weight and tire balance issues. For a number of years now. TPS sensors are more sensitive--but on their way out.

WAZE has come a long way in the last few years, from being a phone crashed, to being a useful tool. The roadside reports are a mixed blessing but when it says "Traffic speed, 3mph" I'm usually sure I should take an alternate route.(G)

Or maybe you guys heard yesterday's nooze, that the government wants to put "V2V" vehicle-to-vehicle transponders in all cars, mandating them on new production within 4-5 years, so that "all" cars will eventually be able to communicate and, in theory, reduce accident rates?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

(snip)

Or maybe you guys heard yesterday's nooze, that the government wants to put "V2V" vehicle-to-vehicle transponders in all cars, mandating them on new production within 4-5 years, so that "all" cars will eventually be able to communicate and, in theory, reduce accident rates?

Those TPS are expensive and delicate devices;

I wonder if a "feature" of the V2V will be remote shutdown.

 

[krazybob]

Broadcastify is not quickly killing this hobby. Scanners have been on the market for 40 years or more. I got my first one when I was twelve years old and strapped it to my handlebars and Riggs a rechargeable battery and mobile antenna. Back then I would pedal around following the police and fire calls. I've matured since then. It's unfair to blame broadcastify when the average Joe can walk into their Radio Shack and buy an inexpensive scanner and listen to their local police and fire department.

I can tell you that in the many number of days that I was working in law enforcement I never once had a suspect that had a scanner. I know that has changed a bit with the online scanners but not so much that law enforcement agencies need to spend multi millions of dollars combating it. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever for a fire department to be encrypted. There are Rumblings did the fire department that I work for is going to do just that. There are also Rumblings that Orange County California is also going to increase their fire department after nearly 20 years of encrypting all the police agencies within their County.

This is a different world that we live in. I fully understand and respect the needs of Homeland Security at the local level. There are certain types of calls however they don't need to be encrypted and a compromise may very well be what's necessary. Citizens have a right to know that there's an armed robbery that has just occurred at a particular location. I'm sure that a terrorist could care less. What a terrorist would care about would be on an encrypted channel. There's your balance. But I don't think that a balance is what some police departments or after period as is very well stated there over 170 agencies on Radio Reference Reference / Broadcastify that provide direct feeds. They recognize that the public is not always their enemy.

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[troymail]

Y'all can tell yourselves whatever you want that makes you feel good -

The fact is, once they encrypt, it will be nearly impossible to get them to undo it.... I won't say totally impossible (never say never) but I guaranteed you it will be like pushing a huge boulder up a steep hill....

 

[krazybob]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you. I certainly haven't said anything to suggest that I expect them to change their mind. I'm simply saying that their logic for doing it it's loud. Citizens showing at the crime scene happens. Just look at any major traffic collision in town. You'll have looky-loos on every corner. At a fire hydrant that's been sheared off and add an extra hundred people to the onlookers. Some people are so stupid that they hear the robbery in progress with shots fired that they run towards the area. That's stupid but that was my job! Lol. No, you are correct. Once encrypted they will stay encrypted and without a valid reason to do

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[kd7kdc]

Well if the agencies want to fight us we need to get off the couch out of our monitoring shacks etc and bring the fight to them.

The more you say "oh well it was fun while it lasted" the more that will be the norm.


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[RFI-EMI-GUY]

possible legal resource to counter C&D letters regarding on line activities

https://www.lumendatabase.org/

specifically

https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/new

 

[Rred]

"Once encrypted they will stay encrypted and"
You guys are missing an obvious example and third path here.
Consider the military GPS system. Which has two "channels", military (with high grade encryption) and civilian, with low grade optional degradation. When Desert Storm saw so many reports of lost soldiers in the desert, writing home and literally cleaning out the domestic US retail market for GPSes for their own use...the civilian "degradation" was turned off, and has remained off ever since. And look how common "precise" GPS has become.
But even back then, if you had some legitimate need for the higher precision military signal (more like two CENTImeters instead of ten to twenty meters) you could submit a letter and often get approval to buy and use a military grade unit, which received the fully encrypted signal.

I'd suggest that in an age of encrypted public safety radio, it would also be fairly simple for the FCC to put this into regulations. You want to encrypt? OK, but anyone meeting set criteria (a citizen, not a felon, etc.) must be allowed to apply for and be granted access to the encrypted signals. And considering that something like 1:20 US citizens, and more like 1:10 male US citizens, are current or former US military members as well...there's good reason to consider that some people can be entrusted to listen in.

Most current cops are too old to remember, but at the first "modern" sniper incident (the "Texas Tower" in the 60's) the police who responded, could not help any of the victims, because they had only six-shooters against a sniper up in the tower. No way to return fire and create a chance for rescue. Until a plain old Texan in a pickup truck with the cliché gun rack in the rear window drove by...and a smart cop stopped him and said "I need your rifle."

Yes, sometimes civilians are damned useful. And yes, sometimes public safety agencies need to be reminded about that. Encryption? Yeah, that can be shared, to mutual advantage.

 

[gmclam]

How about you just do the decent thing and comply with towns wishes. Broadcastify is quickly killing our hobby and now that there is a cease desist request you want to fight it? That makes no sense, if the owner and users of broadcastify wish there to be anything left to stream over the course of the next ten years or so do the decent thing and take down the stream it's that simple. If you had respect for our first responders you would respect their wishes its as simple as that. And why do we need streams in the first place if I want to know what's going on I turn on my radio and listen. Why do people in New York need to to hear Los Angeles. I'm in the Chicago suburbs and only need to hear what's going on around me if I wanted to hear someplace else I would travel to that location. And the example of the Iowa dispatch center asking for the scanner listeners help isn't valid how could anyone outside of the immediate area ever call in with honest info come on. No way anyone fifty to a hundred miles away is going to be of use to the dispatcher asking for help let alone people on the other side country listening just for fun. Let's all remember that with this great hobby comes common sense rules so if we all use common sense instead of petty complaining to combat encryption we might actually see a change but if we continue down the road we are on encryption will become the normal and that would be a great disservice to our hobby. Use common sense either put a half hour or so delay on these feeds to give police and fire time to do what they need to, to secure a scene or take down the streams all together I have never seen the point in streams somebody out there has to agree with me. My state is encrypting alot of communications that used to be in the clear and every time I enquire why with a ranking police or fire officer they say it's because of the online streaming. Save our hobby and stop streaming!

When I am away from home, I listen to streams to hear what is going on. I doubt I am the only one.

 

[MaximusTheGreat]

Well if the agencies want to fight us we need to get off the couch out of our monitoring shacks etc and bring the fight to them.

The more you say "oh well it was fun while it lasted" the more that will be the norm.


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The first step in getting "off the couch" is by donating and collecting money. After all, lawyers, court costs, and and administration fees are not cheap.

How much can you donate to Broadcastify for legal expenses at this time ?

I'm not taking on the Local Governments nor do I care to donate any money to a cause that is purely fueled by greed. Greed of the feeders. But like it has been stated earlier, we are beating a dead horse already. #PoorHorsey

 

[natedawg1604]

Given the circumstances, they are being KIND and GENEROUS by sending this letter. Most agencies would just fork over some $$$ for a ADP upgrade and be done with it, this agency probably doesn't want to spend the money for a lousy upgrade and decided to send the letter instead.

 

[LubeckTech]

Personally I think Dispatch channels should not be encrypted for a variety of reasons. The majority of the law enforcement community does not agree. I work for a communications company who provides radio equipment and services to all types of public service agencies and what will eventually happen is even the dispatch channels will eventually encrypt. The equipment they are currently purchasing is mostly digital with encryption modules and entitlements already in place or available as funds become available. We had a situation in Washington county Ohio where on multiple occasions individuals were using their cell phones to listen to the Sheriff's P25 talkgroup during various types of criminal incidents. The Sheriff decided to encrypt ALL department communications as this was the simplest way to halt the interception of their traffic via cell phones and scanners. They had been using Ohio MARCS for about a year and already had the equipment in place so it was a simple matter of some programming to accomplish the task. For many departments encryption will be expensive and will be the reason they will seek and receive state and federal grants. The public at large tends to support Law enforcement having "privacy" and will probably be willing to spend the money to see that they get it. Unfortunately most people today are not interested in what is going on around them and think those of us who are interested in radios and monitoring are a bunch of weirdos anyway.

 

[MaximusTheGreat]

Given the circumstances, they are being KIND and GENEROUS by sending this letter. Most agencies would just fork over some $$$ for a ADP upgrade and be done with it, this agency probably doesn't want to spend the money for a lousy upgrade and decided to send the letter instead.

Or perhaps they are wanting to set a precedent and go all the way with a lawsuit until Broadcastify buckles. Causing a domino affect on feeders closing up on shop. Restoring the balance back to "our" hobby. "Our" also includes YOU!