Heard a rumor...Is Cattaraugus County getting a New Frequency?? I was told it was 159.015?? If so what is it going to be used for??? Know that 154.325 has been muted. Any help would be much appreciated!!!
Cattaraugus County New Frequency???
- Thread starter nyemt774
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c0untyb0y
Member
Is this related to the freq coordination w/ Canada, eh? 159.015 isn't that far away from county MRD of 159.405. Maybe 154.325 and 154.370 will be fire F1 and F3 now?
159.015 is licensed to the Town of Lyndon Higway Department. No record of an active or pending license for the County.
The Lyndon license has a "Secondary Use Only" Special Condition, probably due to Canadian issues, so it does not seem to be a viable frequency for the County.
The Lyndon license has a "Secondary Use Only" Special Condition, probably due to Canadian issues, so it does not seem to be a viable frequency for the County.
c0untyb0y
Member
essentially sounds like it's back to square one for Little Valley then. might as well keep the low band around, and perhaps even improve upon it - voted towers, vehicular tactical repeaters, etc.
Thanks k2hz...I wondered the same thing. If it was a town highway frequency. Since the County has installed a new tower in Lyndon, I can see the Lyndon Town highway also utilizing it,
On to another question, Maybe you or some else could answer it. What makes Canada so important? I travel frequently to Buffalo and I never hear Canada on any of these frequencies that are in question. What is the hub-bub all about??? To me Cattaraugus and Allegany counties are far enough away that the two should be able to co-exist without causing interference. No matter what is done, you can't mess with Canada, What gives???.
On to another question, Maybe you or some else could answer it. What makes Canada so important? I travel frequently to Buffalo and I never hear Canada on any of these frequencies that are in question. What is the hub-bub all about??? To me Cattaraugus and Allegany counties are far enough away that the two should be able to co-exist without causing interference. No matter what is done, you can't mess with Canada, What gives???.
There is a treaty between the US and Canada that requires coordination of any application within a zone that extends approximately 75 miles from the border. There is a specifc legal definination of the zone called Line A.
There are technical standards for calculated interference levels to existing systems that can not be exceeded and will result in rejection of the application. In questionable cases, the applicant is sometimes given Special Temporary Authority to operate to see if actual interference occurs. In other cases, a license may be granted as Secondary Use on the basis of no interference to Canada.
In many cases, the frequency in question is a repeater input in Canada so you won't hear their mobiles but a US base or repeater output on the frequency would cause severe interference to Canada.
Canada also maintains very strict limits on the Effective Radiated Power of their systems. ERP of 25W or less are common for business users and 50W for public safety are common with an occasional 100W license for a major public safety system. This compares to US systems with several hundred Watt ERP.
Cattaraugus 159.405 at McCarty is 380W ERP so it is common for US systems to be heard well outside their actual area of operation. Canadian systems are usually engineered for only the minimum power needed. This is one factor in the apparent FCC policy of little or no review of Canadian applications.
I believe it is still possible to license VHF frequencies in the WNY Line A area but it takes some research and patience to pick viable frequencies and go through some modifications if Canadian objections arise. It can take 6 months to 2 years to finally get a license but it can be done. What I have seen happen too often is that some salesman or consultant claims they can expedite the process and a system is put on the air on a poorly chosen frequency and sometimes before a license is granted or even applied for with the sort of bad consequences we are seeing. I don't know the circumstances of the specific systems we are discussing. Considering a frequency with known Canadain issues for an expanded system seems to be counterproductive.
One thing that aggravates the frequency "shortage" in the area is Public Safety systems that continue to renew their licenses for frequencies abandoned years ago. This prevents frequency coordinators from even considering these frequencies, which probably are clear with Canada based on the present licenses, for new systems.
There are technical standards for calculated interference levels to existing systems that can not be exceeded and will result in rejection of the application. In questionable cases, the applicant is sometimes given Special Temporary Authority to operate to see if actual interference occurs. In other cases, a license may be granted as Secondary Use on the basis of no interference to Canada.
In many cases, the frequency in question is a repeater input in Canada so you won't hear their mobiles but a US base or repeater output on the frequency would cause severe interference to Canada.
Canada also maintains very strict limits on the Effective Radiated Power of their systems. ERP of 25W or less are common for business users and 50W for public safety are common with an occasional 100W license for a major public safety system. This compares to US systems with several hundred Watt ERP.
Cattaraugus 159.405 at McCarty is 380W ERP so it is common for US systems to be heard well outside their actual area of operation. Canadian systems are usually engineered for only the minimum power needed. This is one factor in the apparent FCC policy of little or no review of Canadian applications.
I believe it is still possible to license VHF frequencies in the WNY Line A area but it takes some research and patience to pick viable frequencies and go through some modifications if Canadian objections arise. It can take 6 months to 2 years to finally get a license but it can be done. What I have seen happen too often is that some salesman or consultant claims they can expedite the process and a system is put on the air on a poorly chosen frequency and sometimes before a license is granted or even applied for with the sort of bad consequences we are seeing. I don't know the circumstances of the specific systems we are discussing. Considering a frequency with known Canadain issues for an expanded system seems to be counterproductive.
One thing that aggravates the frequency "shortage" in the area is Public Safety systems that continue to renew their licenses for frequencies abandoned years ago. This prevents frequency coordinators from even considering these frequencies, which probably are clear with Canada based on the present licenses, for new systems.
Thanks for the info k2hz...You are one heckuva source of useful info!!!,,,As I sit here next to my 15x, once again 154.325 is ACTIVE. Coming in loud and clear...Hope it stays up and running....
c0untyb0y
Member
Thanks nyemt774 and k2hz for you information as well. Still very curious as to how this will all work out.
Catt. County 154.325 High-Band Down again
Well here we go again..After an apparent communications glitch last night (Saturday, 09/21/2013) 154.325 has gone silent once again. Wish the Cattaraugus County Legislatures would take some of the Casino Money they received and appropriate some of it to fixing and taking care of the Volunteer Fire/EMS folks that FREELY give of their time and give us some DECENT and RELIABLE communications!!!!!
Well here we go again..After an apparent communications glitch last night (Saturday, 09/21/2013) 154.325 has gone silent once again. Wish the Cattaraugus County Legislatures would take some of the Casino Money they received and appropriate some of it to fixing and taking care of the Volunteer Fire/EMS folks that FREELY give of their time and give us some DECENT and RELIABLE communications!!!!!
Further to the explanation above... the rule states that whatever side of the border has the larger population in the respective zone shall have veto power.. for Buffalo-Rochester and Western NY.. the population is somewhere around 2.5 million.. where metro Toronto is well in excess of 8 million people wrapping around the lake from Oshawa to Hamilton... the opposite is true for Windsor-Detroit ... Detroit is around 5 million and Windsor is around 500,000 so Windsor loses and Detroit wins.
We still don't seem to have any official word on what the County is planning to do.
All we know is that someone is running an unlicensed cross band repeater on 154.325 and there is a rumor of use of 159.015.
The Cattaraugus license for 154.325 is class "FB" (simplex base). Repeater "FB2" operation is NOT authorized. The 159.015 license belongs to a Town, not the County and it is also "FB".
If the County wants to license either frequency for FB2 or any expanded use there are known Canadian coordination issues. 154.325 is FB only at McCarty, all other sites are "FBS" which means standby use.
This is an unusual classification but it means the site is only authorized as a backup to the primary site. The coordination history shows Canada replied "NHIC" which means No Harmful Interference but with Comments. The normal response is "NHIA" No Harmful Interfernce Anticipated" which means all is OK or "HIA" meaning Harmful Interference Anticipated which means NO!.
NHIC usually results in Special Conditions on the license to address the Canadian concerns. That does not seem to be the case here but that may be the reason for the unusual "FBS" classification for the sites other than McCarty. It does not bode well for future changes in the license without some reduction in ERP or directional antennas to overcome Canadian objections.
159.015 is licensed to Lyndon, not the County, and already is restricted to Secondary Use status to protect Canada.
If Cattaraugus County is planning a High Band Fire repeater system we should be seeing some FCC license applications. That should be a first step, especially with the delays and problems associated with Canadian coordination and apparently nothing has been filed yet.
Do we know the unauthorized repeater being heard is even being operated by the County? Unlicensed cross band repeaters put up by VFDs or even individuals are not uncommon.
All we know is that someone is running an unlicensed cross band repeater on 154.325 and there is a rumor of use of 159.015.
The Cattaraugus license for 154.325 is class "FB" (simplex base). Repeater "FB2" operation is NOT authorized. The 159.015 license belongs to a Town, not the County and it is also "FB".
If the County wants to license either frequency for FB2 or any expanded use there are known Canadian coordination issues. 154.325 is FB only at McCarty, all other sites are "FBS" which means standby use.
This is an unusual classification but it means the site is only authorized as a backup to the primary site. The coordination history shows Canada replied "NHIC" which means No Harmful Interference but with Comments. The normal response is "NHIA" No Harmful Interfernce Anticipated" which means all is OK or "HIA" meaning Harmful Interference Anticipated which means NO!.
NHIC usually results in Special Conditions on the license to address the Canadian concerns. That does not seem to be the case here but that may be the reason for the unusual "FBS" classification for the sites other than McCarty. It does not bode well for future changes in the license without some reduction in ERP or directional antennas to overcome Canadian objections.
159.015 is licensed to Lyndon, not the County, and already is restricted to Secondary Use status to protect Canada.
If Cattaraugus County is planning a High Band Fire repeater system we should be seeing some FCC license applications. That should be a first step, especially with the delays and problems associated with Canadian coordination and apparently nothing has been filed yet.
Do we know the unauthorized repeater being heard is even being operated by the County? Unlicensed cross band repeaters put up by VFDs or even individuals are not uncommon.
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k2hz..I would hope it isnt an unauthorized repeater system. And that the whole "upgrade" or migration to high band is on the up an up. Our Fire/EMS people need it desperately. We are dealing with peoples lives here. We need to hear our pages without interruption. The county just received a ton of Casino money, We shouldnt have to beg to get decent communications. I am currently listening to Allegany County toning for a structure fire in Canaserega, on their Narrowband dispatch 155.5425. The signal is coming in LOUD and CLEAR better than our dispatch 33.700 in Catt county. Low Band communications doesnt work here. Right now dispatch is fighting to keep the Yorkshire tower running. I just heard them say it was up and down, sporadic. Why is this happening? It shouldnt be an issue. Whatever communication Company Catt. county is using to maintain the tower system doesnt seem to know what they are doing or equipment needs to be replaced with more reliable product. I would think when one is dealing with peoples lives that should be higher priority than funneling money for tourism as it has been reported the Legislator has been discussing using the Casino money for...Unbelievable....
The 154.325 system is indeed properly licensed for simplex base mobile communications and paging over the McCarty site with the other sites available only as backups to McCarty. The license does not authorize any automatic repeater operation. It could be at least semi-legitimate to do a cross band patch under control of the dispatcher when required but not to run a full time repeater.
Allegany County Fire has a multi-site simulcast system on both their alert and response frequencies and the response frequency is a repeater and is properly licensed. I would expect Cattaraugus to be applying for licenses for a similar system to have coverage comparable to Allegany which appears to be working very well.
The Cattaraugus Police/Sheriff system is a properly licensed multi-site repeater system like Allegany.
This is why I wonder what Cattaraugus Fire expects if they operate under the terms of the present license and if there is any formal plan for this migration of Fire to High Band. I would hate to see taxpayer money spent on a system that either does not perform as expected or gets shut down or runs into long delays for lack of proper licensing.
Allegany County should be an example both for what the system should be and the problems that can result from Canadian interference issues.
c0untyb0y
Member
then you march into Little Valley on a Wednesday afternoon when the legislature meets and you voice that concern. grab a few more people to tag along and see what happens. knowing what I've seen in the past, the county isn't funding any more maintenance on the towers so Yorkshire ends up getting band aid fixes instead of a complete overhaul. I wouldn't blame the radio vendor at all for this mess.
slightly off topic, but the good people of Hinsdale waited patiently for 20+ years before Little Valley would act on a bridge removal for Sherlock Hollow Rd. there's no way public safety should have to wait the same amount of time to get a radio system that works!
c0untyb0y
Member
too bad the brain trusts in Little Valley and Belmont couldn't of worked together and made a decent communications system as in Allegany Co for both counties. the state is big on consolidation/shared services and the potential could of been huge for both counties to of worked together on this.
D
DaveNF2G
Guest
The State's stance on consolidation and sharing is lip-service motivated by hunger for federal grant money. They cannot and will not force anyone to do anything by any means except by failing to send money. Home Rule is alive and well.
D
DaveNF2G
Guest
The State's stance on consolidation and sharing is lip-service motivated by hunger for federal grant money. They cannot and will not force anyone to do anything by any means except by failing to send money. Home Rule is alive and well.
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