CHP & Trunking 2024

[HappilyRetired]

I realize that this topic has come up from time to time. I've read back as far as 2010 with some very well placed users weighed in and said that California Highway Patrol would never go to trunking. Here we are 13 years later and I see it happening. I realized that I am a neophyte at scanners but I didn't become a detective by not being able to recognize a pattern.

Here's what I'm saying. Some of you have already seen it. My suspicion in advance is that CHP is going to be on every major County Trucking system rather than massive outlays of cash to build out their own system. Here's why and it has nothing to do with encryption. Although that will occur as well.

I was looking at San Diego/Imperial county, which I can hear fire from my home in Lake Elsinore from up on top of the hill. I can hear the El Cajon CHP units as well as those as in Imperial County. They have many talk groups. It didn't take much digging to find that Oceanside and Temecula, where I listen all the time, already have talk groups as well. They are said to be in the testing phase. 13 years ago I read that they were complaints with CHP being on RCS but those seem to be resolved if they're adding new talk groups and moving further north into Northern San Diego county.

With this being the case we have the very large Orange County system and the Riverside system which of course butts up to the San Bernardino system. I don't think it takes a lot of brain power to figure out what's going on here. Chippers may be a dead program from what I've read, that LA-RICS certainly is not. I don't expect that low band will completely disappear or may very well move up to CRIS, where I see CHP already has two test channels, and CMARS.

With these obvious things taking place why is it inconceivable to so many that I've read that CHP is moving up to 700? Not entirely as I already said. There Are places all throughout the state where low band is the only game in town.

Here I am worried about a low band antenna for my office building in San Bernardino when I've already got a very well built antenna system at my home in Riverside County, and it may be short-lived. The major metropolitan areas are all going to 700/800. Why wouldn't CHP join them? Even LAPD is changing (and sadly going encrypted.) It looks like LAPD is keeping their current frequency allocations as well as Los Angeles county. With my poor antenna system I haven't tried tuning in the Los Angeles City STRS, but it looks like the fire department is already in the process of moving from conventional to trunk.

But they too are going trunked. I'll probably be dead before it's done but isn't the handwriting on the wall?

CHP will join local public safety trunk systems with a partial pay in and accomplish the metropolitan areas excluding areas like Idyllwild, Big Bear Lake where I like to do a lot of hiking, Tahoe, Truckee...

 

[consys]

When Solano County went P25 phase 1 they included CHP in the system. While they are still on 42.600, having them on UHF was best thing that happened for listening w/ hand held. If that is done here in Sac county were I moved recently, I haven't discovered yet. There have been many speculations in other threads about will they/won't they/when??? Unless they encrypt, it might be a good thing. In any case, every time the system changes, we adapt.

 

[mmckenna]

Here's what I'm saying. Some of you have already seen it. My suspicion in advance is that CHP is going to be on every major County Trucking system rather than massive outlays of cash to build out their own system. Here's why and it has nothing to do with encryption. Although that will occur as well.

They are on several local trunked systems already.

But, the grand plan is for them to move onto the California Radio Interoperability System (CRIS). They are already doing testing in some parts of the state.

While they may stay on local systems for a while, there is the option to ISSI link (intersystem link) P25 trunked systems together to allow them to roam between systems seamlessly.

I don't expect that low band will completely disappear or may very well move up to CRIS, where I see CHP already has two test channels, and CMARS.

The state is too rugged to cover with CRIS.
While CRIS is mostly 700MHz, they are starting to build VHF overlays in some areas, so coverage will improve.
But, still, there will be places where low band will likely be the short term solution.
Long term solution? Who knows... Might stay low band for quite a while. Will probably leverage LTE, as CRIS already supports that. Maybe a combination of everything.
But in the extreme far reaches of the state, it's going to be a challenge to give them the coverage they need with 700MHz or even VHF.

The plan with CRIS was to replace all the 'little' systems that the state is responsible for, and allow one common system that would fill in all those check boxes statewide.

Keep in mind that CRIS is still being built out.

 

[mmckenna]

When Solano County went P25 phase 1 they included CHP in the system. While they are still on 42.600, having them on UHF was best thing that happened for listening w/ hand held. If that is done here in Sac county were I moved recently, I haven't discovered yet. There have been many speculations in other threads about will they/won't they/when??? Unless they encrypt, it might be a good thing. In any case, every time the system changes, we adapt.

The radios they use will cover VHF Low, VHF High, UHF, 700MHz and 800MHz.
Currently that is done using the 4 stacks of RF decks from Kenwood/EF Johnson.
CHP is currently trailing the L3 Harris XL-200M in a couple of motorcycles in Sacramento, I believe.

And while the current VHF low analog system won't support the encryption they need. CRIS will absolutely support AES256, as required. One of the many reasons that the state is going to CRIS is specifically so they can utilize AES256 for law enforcement users.

 

[tsalmrsystemtech]

The writing is all over the walls. My radio comm business cranks in NorCal and nothing South of The pit of California. I deal with customers and clients on a daily business with sales of ASTRO and APX radios and programming and every other states besides California Hawaii and Alaska crank. The whole East Coast and the Carolinas for sure. Texas is a money cranking state too. When I am collecting green cabbage daily I see nobody in Socal spend any money on high end commerical grade radios. Also, if they have these radios they know my services are no good to them. Most people have left the state and have moved to other parts of the US for a better quality of life and also be able to buy a house and have their hobbies and have all sorts of nice stuff. Then end up buying a nice 7500 or a 8500 for their truck and an 8000 for portable use. Program the whole statewide systems and surrounding counties and city systems.

All of them are East Coasters and middle america and spend money all day long on APX 900 -6000 -7000- and 8000 on hardware and programming daily. Most other states have already moved on and went to Phase II TDMA a few years ago and still are in the clear and have no plans otherwise. All of their Troopers are on the statewide systems too. All I say is get out and get going with life. So many other states I talk to people daily that have left and never looked back in the rear view mirror. They love their commerical grade radios and programming and are happy people moving up in life. Also, they keep wanting other sites and counties added consistently.

 

[HappilyRetired]

They are on several local trunked systems already.

But, the grand plan is for them to move onto the California Radio Interoperability System (CRIS). They are already doing testing in some parts of the state.

While they may stay on local systems for a while, there is the option to ISSI link (intersystem link) P25 trunked systems together to allow them to roam between systems seamlessly.



The state is too rugged to cover with CRIS.
While CRIS is mostly 700MHz, they are starting to build VHF overlays in some areas, so coverage will improve.
But, still, there will be places where low band will likely be the short term solution.
Long term solution? Who knows... Might stay low band for quite a while. Will probably leverage LTE, as CRIS already supports that. Maybe a combination of everything.
But in the extreme far reaches of the state, it's going to be a challenge to give them the coverage they need with 700MHz or even VHF.

The plan with CRIS was to replace all the 'little' systems that the state is responsible for, and allow one common system that would fill in all those check boxes statewide.

Keep in mind that CRIS is still being built out.

Since I'm the newcomer and just learning this stuff I certainly can cede the point to you that they could be going to CRIS. But I only find two testing channels there whereas with the San Diego Imperial County RCS I've already found CHP in San Diego, Imperial county, up into Temecula as well as Oceanside. Of Course Temecula and Oceanside are on the same frequency on VHF low band, but not on the RCS. My question would be if they're going to the CRIS why would they be wasting time adding talk groups to the RCS? They've also already said that they don't have the money to put the large number of towers in that they're going to need on 700 to cover the area.

It seems fiscally more responsible for CHP to partner with local trunk systems as I had already mentioned. San Diego Imperial county, orange county, Riverside County San Bernardino county, the new Los Angeles County system coming, and the new Los Angeles City system coming. Did I miss anybody? It seems to make more sense to buy in as partners with State money to supplement the metropolitan area trunked systems rather than build out CRIS.

I will probably be dead before all of this finishes up. But it is interesting to watch tax dollars at work. I spent a lot of years with Los Angeles and I know their radio system quite well. More so than the average unit put on the street. We would do rolling stakeouts with allied agencies and we would use the Mutual Aid frequencies as well as some other tricks we had up our sleeves. Actually, a lot of it goes by LTE and you'll never know that we're there. But if we're dealing with things like the Palestinian crap qgoing on right now, Mutual Aid is a common frequency.

⁰But that's another system there. The ICI system. What's going to happen with that when all Los Angeles County agencies are required to switch over to the Los Angeles County P25 Smart Zone II system? I'm not quite sure what I said right there, but it sounded good. Lol. Seriously, it's just one of the many things that I read. I really been pounding this group reading as much as I can to get caught up. Will the ICI disappear? Isn't it just a modified smart zone system anyway? From what I read the ICI system is made up of individual cities that maintain their own equipment and microwave to wherever to link their systems together. I don't see it as out of the ordinary for the county to come in and say YOU WILL and fall in line with the rest of the counties in Southern California. Doesn't Los Angeles have a CW IRS system? I actually know the answer to that because I see them building it out adding new sites to it on a regular basis. I wonder if that's going to be the architecture for the Los Angeles County system. Again, can't they force the individual cities to become part of the Los Angeles County system? Orange County did. So did San Bernardino from what I've read.

I see this is a probability because the city of Los Angeles and the County of Los Angeles can then go to the federal government for Grants to build out their wide area trunked system. Let's face it, Los Angeles is a very large populated area and if everybody is basically doing their own thing but just happens to have the ability to interface with other agencies something seems to be missing. That shows how little I know. I can tell you one thing about this whole thing and everybody switching to encryption. I'll stay within the Forum rules here but all I will say is that there is no vast reason for agencies to encrypt. In all of my many years there was no criminal smart enough or dumb enough for the most part to get caught with a scanner at the scene of a crime. Our response times were generally so long to begin with it didn't matter. Most of the cities around us had the same issue. The bigger deal were large events where certain people were using Zello and emulating our same LTE push to talk cell phones. I won't go any further than that. My comments are meant is passive and not in favor one way or another. It's going to happen regardless. I think it's just a big money grab by Motorola.

 

[mmckenna]

My question would be if they're going to the CRIS why would they be wasting time adding talk groups to the RCS? They've also already said that they don't have the money to put the large number of towers in that they're going to need on 700 to cover the area.

CHP doesn't have enough money to build out their own statewide radio system.
That's why CalOES is doing it. One system for the state users, share the costs. Sell excess capacity to other agencies.

As for RCS, it's because it's there and well established. Does not mean that they won't use CRIS in the future.

P25 trunked systems can use ISSI, which is an RF subsystem interface to allow radios to roam between systems. It ceases to look like a lot of little systems, and starts acting like one big one. I know for sure that CRIS is going to do ISSI between smaller systems and themselves.

It seems to make more sense to buy in as partners with State money to supplement the metropolitan area trunked systems rather than build out CRIS.

See my ISSI comment above.
The plan is for CRIS to be built out to not only support state users, but other local/county agencies that wish to join. That doesn't mean all the existing systems are going away, only that there are options.

 

[mmckenna]

I'll stay within the Forum rules here but all I will say is that there is no vast reason for agencies to encrypt.

You are certainly welcome to that opinion.
This has been discussed quite a bit, and there's no need to rehash it all again. Encryption is coming for many reasons. Read up on some of the past posts to get an idea why.

I think it's just a big money grab by Motorola.

Motorola isn't the only player in this market.

 

[tsalmrsystemtech]

You are certainly welcome to that opinion.
This has been discussed quite a bit, and there's no need to rehash it all again. Encryption is coming for many reasons. Read up on some of the past posts to get an idea why.



Motorola isn't the only player in this market.

California DOJ Mandate

Why Radio Encryption Is RTDNA’s Biggest Issue In 2023 - Radio Television Digital News Association

www.rtdna.org

 

[HappilyRetired]

You are certainly welcome to that opinion.
This has been discussed quite a bit, and there's no need to rehash it all again. Encryption is coming for many reasons. Read up on some of the past posts to get an idea why.



Motorola isn't the only player in this market.

Complaining about encryption is a violation of the forum policies and that's not / was not my intent. I don't believe that appeared as my intent. I was discussing the merits of why the San Diego Imperial County RCS has four CHP systems on it with multiple talk groups but yet it's indicated that they're going to CRIS.

 

[HappilyRetired]

CHP doesn't have enough money to build out their own statewide radio system.
That's why CalOES is doing it. One system for the state users, share the costs. Sell excess capacity to other agencies.

As for RCS, it's because it's there and well established. Does not mean that they won't use CRIS in the future.

P25 trunked systems can use ISSI, which is an RF subsystem interface to allow radios to roam between systems. It ceases to look like a lot of little systems, and starts acting like one big one. I know for sure that CRIS is going to do ISSI between smaller systems and themselves.



See my ISSI comment above.
The plan is for CRIS to be built out to not only support state users, but other local/county agencies that wish to join. That doesn't mean all the existing systems are going away, only that there are options.

I don't know what ISSI means and I'll just stay quiet at this point.

 

[mmckenna]

I don't know what ISSI means

Think back to the old days of cellular phones. When you'd wander outside your carriers coverage area, you'd roam onto another system that had established agreements with your carrier. Your phone would just work like it did, but it would be on a different system.

P25 trunked systems can do the same thing. It requires that connection between system cores, and things to be set up correctly. but it'll do what you are showing in your posts. The CHP trunked radio can be on the RCS system, and when they travel outside that area, it can fall back to CRIS.

and I'll just stay quiet at this point.

I don't think you should. You made some excellent observations that were pretty dang close. I'm just helping you fill in some of the blanks.

 

[LAflyer]

CHP North Sacramento will be on CRIS as soon as December for their Gold frequency. Depending on how it goes, they may roll it out to other areas. There are still some coverage concerns, and CHP are in the process of acquiring newer radio equipment that can fall back to LTE if needed in marginal areas.

Regarding questions about LA basin, LARICS and ICI already have established ISSI link, and can communicate on each other systems. This already occurred during last years Super Bowl, and a few more recent multiagency events.

 

[mmckenna]

and CHP are in the process of acquiring newer radio equipment that can fall back to LTE if needed in marginal areas.

I met with my Harris rep on Thursday and we were talking about that. I know they've been trialing it on a few of the motorcycles recently.

Harris is supposed to be releasing an update that relates to MCPTT and BeON in the next month or two. Waiting to see what it'll do.

 

[Mike_G_D]

In regards to the San Diego and Imperial County RCS NexGen and the CHP talk groups in the system. Those Oceanside TG's were in the system LONG before the system became a full on p25 P2 system and well before CRIS was known about (at least widely among hobbyists) and being discussed in these forums. They were there for use but the only divisions that decided to use the RCS CHP talk groups were the two in south and southeast more densely populated parts of San Diego County. Oceanside and Temecula never did use them as far as I know (certainly possible that they could have tested them occasionally but I never caught them doing so and I used to listen to them pretty constantly way back when those TG's first showed up many years ago and never heard a peep on them). They just stayed on low band VHF. I heard from someone more in the know than I am (they apparently had some contacts and connections withing the agency) that they were sometimes used for special details but otherwise not for routine traffic. My guess is that now that CRIS is coming online further south and getting into the SD County area they may re-investigate the RCS CHP talk groups usage and whether they want to keep them on the system or not; maybe as part of the ISSI "roaming" feature between the RCS and CRIS sites. Time will tell.

 

[AM909]

Like most things, it may come down to money. My understanding is that even among state agencies, the subscribers have to pay the system $x/month for airtime and $y/month maintenance/lease and maybe $z capital pay-in. Even if it just ends up being a journal entry between accounts at the state level, they have to budget for it and may consider options from other qualified sources, like RCS which I'm told is normally pretty expensive as these things go. Anyone know the story behind that? Did Border get pissed off at the state's ComDiv?

As far as CRIS coverage, my understanding from their docs some time ago was that it's design intent was to cover something like 90% of the state's population, not area. This means there are large swaths of mountain canyons and desert with few inhabitants (like most of the huge San Bernardino County ) that are not (at least originally) designed to be covered. I don't know how effective it was, but the CalTrans 7/800 conventional analog system is an example of some of the lengths you have to go to if you want to cover some of that. They have hundreds of high-level and roadside fill-in voting sites. Their 47 MHz channels are still listed, too. (Anyone know if they're still active or equipped?)

 

[HappilyRetired]

Like most things, it may come down to money. My understanding is that even among state agencies, the subscribers have to pay the system $x/month for airtime and $y/month maintenance/lease and maybe $z capital pay-in. Even if it just ends up being a journal entry between accounts at the state level, they have to budget for it and may consider options from other qualified sources, like RCS which I'm told is normally pretty expensive as these things go. Anyone know the story behind that? Did Border get pissed off at the state's ComDiv?

As far as CRIS coverage, my understanding from their docs some time ago was that it's design intent was to cover something like 90% of the state's population, not area. This means there are large swaths of mountain canyons and desert with few inhabitants (like most of the huge San Bernardino County ) that are not (at least originally) designed to be covered. I don't know how effective it was, but the CalTrans 7/800 conventional analog system is an example of some of the lengths you have to go to if you want to cover some of that. They have hundreds of high-level and roadside fill-in voting sites. Their 47 MHz channels are still listed, too. (Anyone know if they're still active or equipped?)

CRIS is being designed so that it has 90% coverage of populated areas and 60% coverage of mass. Referring to San Bernardino county, the largest county of any County in the entire United states, that's a big ticket to fill.

The other design element of CRIS is that it is LTE enabled. This means that it will use conventional cell phone towers to fill in where typical trunked repeater systems don't exist or are unable to communicate with the user. Cell towers. Right. Give us one good earthquake and we can see an entire area knocked out of radio communications. Cell phone coverage was supposed to be within 3 miles of a freeway. In serious sounds quite workable especially since CHP is obviously on the freeway.

I don't know any of the design specifications, but one of them that existed at LAPD was we had our fallback channel. This was a conventional repeater channel at our station. If dispatch ever went down we could switch over to station dispatch instantly. It actually gets used quite a bit on simplex. That would be a great addition along with the LTE portion of CRIS.

According to the deputy chief of the California highway patrol, the system will be entirely encrypted. It has been a five phase process and apparently they are now working on the 5th phase. I'm not spending any more money on radios.

 

[mmckenna]

Phase 1 for CRIS was to cover 90% of the population and major transportation corridors. That was using 700MHz.
The plan was to provide radio coverage for smaller state agencies that didn't have their own radio systems and provide an interoperability tool between state agencies.

The design has since been expanded since to include VHF overlay, which will increase coverage area.

As agencies sign on, more site are being added. While San Bernardino county is large and has some remote areas, there are more remote parts of the state that are getting coverage.
Several VHF sites have been added in the far northeast part of the state. Mono County has been pretty well covered as local agencies there have signed on.

LTE integration using the Motorola SmartConnect feature has been added to the P25 core. It's intended as an option for those that don't need to carry radios, and a way to add additional coverage.
As for earthquakes, the trunked sites are pretty well built and the existing sites have survived a lot of earthquakes and fires, so I don't think anyone is too worried about that. LTE does rely on commercial carriers, but not all cell sites are as fragile as the amateur radio community wants you to think. CPUC came along a few years back and required on site generators at almost all cell sites after the big Camp Fire up in Paradise. Also, many areas of the cell network have overlapping coverage, so loss of a single site isn't that big a deal.

Meantime, CRIS is (or has) added a redundant P25 core in Southern California to back up the main core in Sacramento.

As for low band, it's not going anywhere soon. But, keep in mind, the CHP isn't totally happy with low band, either. It has its problems with funky coverage, interference and the difficulty of getting parts for the old repeaters.

As of earlier this year, user fees were $300/year per radio for agencies that want to join, although I suspect that some agencies get a better rate.

There is a free level of access that gives any agency access to regional mutual aide channels. Users just need to have a suitable radio and work with the state.

 

[mmckenna]

It actually gets used quite a bit on simplex. That would be a great addition along with the LTE portion of CRIS.

All agencies have access to national interop channels. Agencies should be programming those into radios for that sort of use.
Also, trunked sites will go into failsoft mode, so radios on the same site can still talk.

According to the deputy chief of the California highway patrol, the system will be entirely encrypted. It has been a five phase process and apparently they are now working on the 5th phase. I'm not spending any more money on radios.

Yeah, no way I'd be buying a new scanner now.

 

[HappilyRetired]

All agencies have access to national interop channels. Agencies should be programming those into radios for that sort of use.
Also, trunked sites will go into failsoft mode, so radios on the same site can still talk.



Yeah, no way I'd be buying a new scanner now.

And I just bought three more. A 996 P2 and two BCT15Xs. I must admit I don't know how to program the San Bernardino fire department system because up until now I've been listening to their VHF patch channels. I had no clue CHP was about to vacate low band. I imagine they will stay on low band up in the mountains and up in Mammoth and Truckee; Up in the Sierras and the Kings. I spent a lot of time up in Big Bear and I can tell you that the cellular system sucks, so LTE is not going to be much help to them. But I do hear CHP units complain that they can't hear dispatch. Upon research it appears that there is so much computer generated noise in newer vehicles like the Ford Interceptor that it wipes out the VHF low-band receivers.

This is all new to me. I would think they'd have been able to make a filter by now.