City of Houston Project 25 TRS

[loumaag]

...
Now, I realize this is new territory for many of us. I expect the RR DB to undergo some changes after the switch flipping.

Right now, I am going to program the system like I know & see what happens. I am already hearing Harris County on TxWarn P25.

I will tackle HPD at a latter date when I fully understand how to program my PSR 500.

Yes, it is new and a concept that is a little hard to explain. But I'm willing. If you don't mind, let me use the above sentences to clarify.

Folks with a PSR800, sort of ignore the following as you can just listen to the TDMA channels. Also, don't confuse the HPD/HFD MA channels (see below) with actual mutual aid channels listed.

We have identified the currently being used FDMA channels by both HPD and HFD. Those channels are marked (for the most part) as some channel name and MA or Mutual Aid (AlphaTag and Description). All of the HPD ones were updated a few hours ago. Those channels (I'll call them MA channels) are FDMA and they are only carried on one site, that is the Houston General Services Simulcast site (3-005). If you attempt to hear them on any other site, you will not be successful. If you try and combine listening to the HPD/HFD MA channels with any other agencies (like for example HCSO) you will not be successful since the are carried on two different layers (zones) of the system.

I know that almost any digital scanner can handle these MA channels, I am currently using a BC796D to scan both the HPD and HFD channels (although I locked out the HFD dispatch as I can't abide the robot) and it is working fine. I am also comparing the quality between PSR800 listening to a TDMA channel and listening to the same FDMA channel on an HP-1. I don't see any problems except that the PSR800 doesn't sound as good as the HP-1 (or the 796D for that matter.)

The only radio I am having a real problem with is my Pro-96, mostly it sounds like R2D2.

The key is that you really have to treat this system as 3 separate systems as far as scanners go. Site 3-005 is one system that is carrying FDMA channels that are duplicated on other sites on the layer 3 level, which would be a second system and finally the third one would be all the layer 1 & 2 sites that carry only FDMA channels that have nothing to do with those channels for the city of Houston.

BTW, the reason these HPD/HFD FDMA simulcast channels are listed as MA channels is so that they can heard by folks who don't have TDMA radios, hence are actually for Mutual Aid. I don't think anyone imagines anyone is going to talk back to HPD or HFD on those channels.

 

[dupree617]

Yes, it is new and a concept that is a little hard to explain. But I'm willing. If you don't mind, let me use the above sentences to clarify.

Folks with a PSR800, sort of ignore the following as you can just listen to the TDMA channels. Also, don't confuse the HPD/HFD MA channels (see below) with actual mutual aid channels listed.

We have identified the currently being used FDMA channels by both HPD and HFD. Those channels are marked (for the most part) as some channel name and MA or Mutual Aid (AlphaTag and Description). All of the HPD ones were updated a few hours ago. Those channels (I'll call them MA channels) are FDMA and they are only carried on one site, that is the Houston General Services Simulcast site (3-005). If you attempt to hear them on any other site, you will not be successful. If you try and combine listening to the HPD/HFD MA channels with any other agencies (like for example HCSO) you will not be successful since the are carried on two different layers (zones) of the system.

I know that almost any digital scanner can handle these MA channels, I am currently using a BC796D to scan both the HPD and HFD channels (although I locked out the HFD dispatch as I can't abide the robot) and it is working fine. I am also comparing the quality between PSR800 listening to a TDMA channel and listening to the same FDMA channel on an HP-1. I don't see any problems except that the PSR800 doesn't sound as good as the HP-1 (or the 796D for that matter.)

The only radio I am having a real problem with is my Pro-96, mostly it sounds like R2D2.

The key is that you really have to treat this system as 3 separate systems as far as scanners go. Site 3-005 is one system that is carrying FDMA channels that are duplicated on other sites on the layer 3 level, which would be a second system and finally the third one would be all the layer 1 & 2 sites that carry only FDMA channels that have nothing to do with those channels for the city of Houston.

BTW, the reason these HPD/HFD FDMA simulcast channels are listed as MA channels is so that they can heard by folks who don't have TDMA radios, hence are actually for Mutual Aid. I don't think anyone imagines anyone is going to talk back to HPD or HFD on those channels.

I wanted to thank you for the above post. For myself I've gotten most of that information already. It though is hard for me to explain to someone how to program a RS pro106/197 or it GRE cousins by computer. This is because I do it the slow manual way. And I do mean slow. Then I clone the other radios that I have like it. Furthermore you done a much better job of explaining it then I could ever dream of.

Thanks again,

Mike Dupree

 

[RexBanner]

The only radio I am having a real problem with is my Pro-96, mostly it sounds like R2D2.

Thank you for the detailed post. I'm trying to get the "General Government Services Layer" frequencies working on my Pro-96 now - I think I'm making progress but I want to make sure I've done this properly.

I've added all of the frequencies from Houston General Government Services Simulcast Site Details (Texas Wide Area Radio Network (TxWARN) Project 25) to my Pro-96, under mode "M", with Motorola trunking enabled. I've heard a handful of transmissions so far - one with an HPD Northwest "18F" unit number that I recognized, so I suspect I'm making some progress here, though it can't be quite right just yet because I've heard just a handful of brief broadcasts in the last ~15 minutes I've been listening.

What am I doing wrong? Is it my mistake or can the Pro-96 just not keep up?

If a separate thread would be more appropriate, please let me know. I don't intend to hijack this topic.

Rex

 

[loumaag]

Thank you for the detailed post. I'm trying to get the "General Government Services Layer" frequencies working on my Pro-96 now - I think I'm making progress but I want to make sure I've done this properly.

I've added all of the frequencies from Houston General Government Services Simulcast Site Details (Texas Wide Area Radio Network (TxWARN) Project 25) to my Pro-96, under mode "M", with Motorola trunking enabled. I've heard a handful of transmissions so far - one with an HPD Northwest "18F" unit number that I recognized, so I suspect I'm making some progress here, though it can't be quite right just yet because I've heard just a handful of brief broadcasts in the last ~15 minutes I've been listening.

What am I doing wrong? Is it my mistake or can the Pro-96 just not keep up?

If a separate thread would be more appropriate, please let me know. I don't intend to hijack this topic.

Rex

Rex,

No you are doing it right, but let me suggest that you program in the identified talk groups for HPD and/or HFD (12 HPD and 5 HFD) and run the radio in closed mode. The problem is that the Pro-96 gets all the channel grants and tries to go to all of grants being sent out on the CCh. Obviously it can't handle the TDMA channels and when it gets there, it doesn't find a useable signal and returns this just causes it to go crazy trying until if finally lands on one it can handle. There is a LOT of traffic on that site, most of it TDMA. In closed mode, it will ignore all but the programed TGs.

At least you are hearing something, ... well to be fair I am hearing something too, but I wouldn't call it understandable. However, since I have a 796D that is doing this just fine, I may just send the Pro-96 back to it's previous duty, monitoring DPS conventional.

 

[kayi4cle]

Thank you for the detailed post. I'm trying to get the "General Government Services Layer" frequencies working on my Pro-96 now - I think I'm making progress but I want to make sure I've done this properly.

I've added all of the frequencies from Houston General Government Services Simulcast Site Details (Texas Wide Area Radio Network (TxWARN) Project 25) to my Pro-96, under mode "M", with Motorola trunking enabled.

Did you program ALL the frequencies for that site? I only programmed the one control channel and 3 control channel alternates into my Pro-96 and that seems to work okay.

 

[dupree617]

Did you program ALL the frequencies for that site? I only programmed the one control channel and 3 control channel alternates into my Pro-96 and that seems to work okay.

I would think you would need them all. You can pick up the control channel if you want. But it needs to have the frequency that people are actually are talking on. The control channel is connected to the controller. So the controller can tell the radio what channel the operator can talk on. If I crossed my boundaries for there maybe something that I'm not getting. I am sorry, but I'm only trying to help.

Thanks,

Mike Dupree

 

[kayi4cle]

Page 33 of the PDF version of the Pro-96 Users Manual states: "When monitoring Motorola trunked radio systems, it is only necessary to program the trunking control channel." And, indeed, when I first set mine up for the new system it worked fine with just the 1 control channel. I went back and added the alternates. I think most of the newer radios only require the control channels to follow Motorola trunked systems. You will probably find some useful info in the Wiki explaining how trunking works and how the control channel controls the voice channels. I would have to read and study back up on it to give you a good explanation, but I know that in every newer radio I have programmed, the instructions say to only enter the control channels and the radio will do the rest. That makes it a lot easier than it used to be!

 

[RexBanner]

At least you are hearing something, ... well to be fair I am hearing something too, but I wouldn't call it understandable. However, since I have a 796D that is doing this just fine, I may just send the Pro-96 back to it's previous duty, monitoring DPS conventional.

Wow, you weren't kidding! I'm listening now and to say that I'm hearing every other word would be generous. It seems that some talkgroups are more understandable than others - HPD Westside, which I monitor quite often, is completely useless though.

".... Westheimer need a ..... for a lockout 9001 ......"
".... for a minor 20G80's ...... highway 6 ..... dropping"

I might as well not be listening at all. Is this likely to improve (can the Pro-96's firmware be updated or something like that?) or is this what I'm stuck with?

What do you guys think: should I go for a different P25 scanner or just go for the PSR-800? I read recently that GRE shut down production and laid off most of their staff here in the States. That doesn't inspire much confidence.

I'm seeing a few 800s on eBay that are ending between $400-550 -- that's crazy expensive but I'd rather spend that money once instead of trying different P25 scanners and being disappointed each time, if that's what it takes to get a clean feed.

Looking forward to you guys' thoughts

Rex

 

[Carney]

I'd like to pick up a Motorola two way that I can program to pick up HPD and HFD, anybody know what model will cover it?

 

[loumaag]

Did you program ALL the frequencies for that site? I only programmed the one control channel and 3 control channel alternates into my Pro-96 and that seems to work okay.

Either way will work

I would think you would need them all. You can pick up the control channel if you want. But it needs to have the frequency that people are actually are talking on. The control channel is connected to the controller. So the controller can tell the radio what channel the operator can talk on. If I crossed my boundaries for there maybe something that I'm not getting. I am sorry, but I'm only trying to help.

Thanks,

Mike Dupree

No, the scanner ignores all other frequencies and only listens to the CCh anyway. When a voice channel is granted, it uses a table to look up the VC and tunes it independently of what you have programmed. Either way it works the same.

...
What do you guys think: should I go for a different P25 scanner or just go for the PSR-800? I read recently that GRE shut down production and laid off most of their staff here in the States. That doesn't inspire much confidence.

I'm seeing a few 800s on eBay that are ending between $400-550 -- that's crazy expensive but I'd rather spend that money once instead of trying different P25 scanners and being disappointed each time, if that's what it takes to get a clean feed.

Looking forward to you guys' thoughts

Rex

Rex, the 800s are at a premium and if you are only interested in listening to the HPD dispatch channels then any P25 scanner should work. I am disappointed in the Pro-96's performance on this but am impressed greatly by my BC796D. The HP-1 works also, but I am not going to commit an HP-1 to that duty alone. I need to dig my BCT396T out of the truck and program it in and see how it works for it. That is my "in town" mobile radio (I use a control head and external speaker with it) and I need to do that anyway. I would recommend that you wait a few days until the dust settles and folks start reporting on successes and failure using other P25 scanners.

I'd like to pick up a Motorola two way that I can program to pick up HPD and HFD, anybody know what model will cover it?

You may do what you will, but I would recommend against doing that for several reasons, none of which are appropriate to this thread.

 

[Carney]

It's pretty common to do that in Houston, the radio is just programmed to be receive only, unable to transmit. The reception is crystal clear and much more dependable than scanners

 

[loumaag]

It's pretty common to do that in Houston, the radio is just programmed to be receive only, unable to transmit. The reception is crystal clear and much more dependable than scanners

No, it WAS pretty common. It is not going to be so common when dealing with a P25 system. Again, as I said, it is beyond the scope of this thread, but I still would recommend you not to do it.

 

[SCPD]

I'm getting a lot of: "Zebra xxxx radio".
*silence*
"Zebra xxxx radio"
"Zebra xxxx please use your new radio, were using new digital."

Do they have two radios? analog and digital or its one unit with analog and digital together?

 

[mfn002]

I'm getting a lot of: "Zebra xxxx radio".
*silence*
"Zebra xxxx radio"
"Zebra xxxx please use your new radio, were using new digital."

Do they have two radios? analog and digital or its one unit with analog and digital together?

At last check, they are using Motorola UHF/700 MHz APX7000 dual-band handhelds, so it's possible the unit was on the wrong channel.

 

[Ensnared]

Adios HPD

Well, since I don't live in Houston & rarely visit the city, I must say that the expense of a PSR 800 is unwarranted at this time. Yes, I see where you can monitor HPD dispatch in "T" mode, but does this mean there is mobile to base traffic as well? Some agencies encrypt the mobile side of a conversation while keeping the base in the clear. If you can hear both sides of the transmission using "T" mode talk groups, then it might be worth the purchase.

I appreciate the fine effort made by our moderator (LM) to simplify the complex. If you are reading this, you did a great job!

Right now, I am going to take a large gulp of coffee & chill out.

I don't think there are many Phase II systems in the country at present. We will see if the radio industry steps up to the plate to deliver what listeners want, a scanner with full Phase II capabilities.

 

[loumaag]

Thank you, Ensnared.
There is no encryption used on the dispatch channels at all.

To all of you who want to listen to HPD and/or HFD dispatch, you don't need a PSR800. You can listen on any P25 capable scanner (although I must admit I can't get my Pro-96 to decode it very well). You just program it using Site 3-05 only and program only the appropriate FDMA dispatch TGs to scan. Remember that site does not carry the same traffic as any TGs using layers 1 or 2, so only the HPD or HFD is what I am talking about. (Well actually Houston Parking Enforcement also. )

Don't let the scanner operate in Open or ID Search modes and don't include a Wildcard. The reason for this is all P25 control channels are the same, so your scanner will attempt to join all voice channel grants FDMA and TDMA alike, this means your non-TDMA scanner will spend a lot of time doing useless moves to a VC that it can't monitor and then return to the CCh and back to a VC in an endless cycle until it finally lands on a FDMA channel it can actually decode. In Closed or ID Scan modes it will only go to the TGs you have programed and you will do hear the traffic you are listening for.

You will still have to deal with the multi-path problem on decode, just like any other simulcast P25 signal. This is what is affecting my Pro-96 so much that I have given up. My BC796D is doing much better job on this and actually sounds better than my PSR800 decoding the same traffic on the TDMA TG channel.

 

[kayi4cle]

You just program it using Site 3-04 only and program only the appropriate FDMA dispatch TGs to scan. Remember that site does not carry the same traffic as any TGs using layers 1 or 2, so only the HPD or HFD is what I am talking about. (Well actually Houston Parking Enforcement also. )

Lou, I think that perhaps you meant to say Site 3-05.

By the way, thanks so much for all the great information you provide and all the help you give to others in our hobby! You are very much appreciated.

 

[loumaag]

Lou, I think that perhaps you meant to say Site 3-05.

Oops, yeah, 3-05. Going to fix the original so nobody else can get confused.

 

[Ensnared]

Quick Question

Thank you, Ensnared.
There is no encryption used on the dispatch channels at all.

To all of you who want to listen to HPD and/or HFD dispatch, you don't need a PSR800. You can listen on any P25 capable scanner (although I must admit I can't get my Pro-96 to decode it very well). You just program it using Site 3-05 only and program only the appropriate FDMA dispatch TGs to scan. Remember that site does not carry the same traffic as any TGs using layers 1 or 2, so only the HPD or HFD is what I am talking about. (Well actually Houston Parking Enforcement also. )

Don't let the scanner operate in Open or ID Search modes and don't include a Wildcard. The reason for this is all P25 control channels are the same, so your scanner will attempt to join all voice channel grants FDMA and TDMA alike, this means your non-TDMA scanner will spend a lot of time doing useless moves to a VC that it can't monitor and then return to the CCh and back to a VC in an endless cycle until it finally lands on a FDMA channel it can actually decode. In Closed or ID Scan modes it will only go to the TGs you have programed and you will do hear the traffic you are listening for.

You will still have to deal with the multi-path problem on decode, just like any other simulcast P25 signal. This is what is affecting my Pro-96 so much that I have given up. My BC796D is doing much better job on this and actually sounds better than my PSR800 decoding the same traffic on the TDMA TG channel.

When you program these TG's for dispatch using that special layer for the PSR 500, will you be able to hear only dispatch? Or will you be able to hear the mobile units come back? I know this is a stupid question, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I read where you said these TG's would not carry the same traffic.

 

[RichinTx]

Help a dummy out here.

So essentially a BCD996XT is now worthless in Houston for monitoring HPD, HCSO, etc?