Clinton County going Starcom

[dakota91]

I've been hearing three towers with a very strong signal in Clinton county for the past few months. I've been listening to ISP District 11 and 13 on these towers. Today, I also noticed new 800 Mhz antennas on all New Baden police cars. While monitoring the three towers this evening, I heard what sounded like the Clinton County Sheriff testing out the system from their cars (clearly on all three towers). One person mentioned they now have access to six new ISP channels including the three Detail channels (I assume that the other three are Dispatch A, Dispatch B, and Dispatch C), but from their conversation it sounds like they are still very unfamiliar with the system so I'm guessing this is their first day using it. The talkgroup being used was 7901, which I could not locate anywhere on RR. I guessing that once they get radios in all their cars that they will switch from their current VHF channels to Starcom21. They seem to still be using their VHF frequencies for all their normal traffic and it isn't being rebroadcast on Starcom21.

The three towers I found have an ID of 14E on my Pro-106 and the control channels are as follows:
775.340625
775.346875
775.343750

I'll keep monitoring and try and record their voice frequencies and post them later, but early indications seem to indicate that all three controls channels all link to the same voice frequencies, although I'm not getting any of the distortion common on simulcast systems.

 

[Starcom21]

So....
775.346875 is actually T301 775.34375c, which was the new control channel found on Tuesday.
775.340625 is unknown, possibly just too close to the transmitter.
301 Mascoutah [St Clair] [A800] 774.03125 774.56875a 775.28125 775.34375c 775.53125 775.78125 855.16250 859.33750
The hex ID of 14E does NOT match 301's hex which is 12d
System Name: * StarCom21 - Illinois -- 700/800 MHz (Statewide P25) Location: Statewide, Illinois Site Number: Decimal: 301 / Hex: 12d
14E is.. ???

I'm not even sure that the Hex numbers on RR is even correct, compared to what is listed on CARMA profile.

Personally havent heard Clinton County at this time.

 

[dakota91]

Clinton County going digital

I might agree that a couple of the control channels I listed may just be harmonics; however, I disagree that 775.34375 is a new control channel at Mascoutah. Mascoutah (Mid-America Airport) is probably on the St. Clair County simulcast and would broadcast St. Clair county traffic.

I'm not hearing any St. Clair county traffic on 775.34375. What I do hear is lots of ISP, both District 11 (Collinsville) and District 13 (DuQuoin). I also occasional hear the Madison county sheriff (talkgroup 7315) so I assume I pick them up only when they are near this tower. I don't believe I would hear either DuQuoin or the Madison county sheriff if the tower were in Mascoutah. My guess is that this control channel is broadcasting from a tower in either Trenton or Albers, although I would lean towards Albers since they have a large AmerenIP tower there. Albers is also within 10 miles of both Madison county and Washington county (which is part of District 13). I guess I can try to determine it this is true by removing the antenna from my scanner and driving to both Albers and Trenton and see if I can still receive this CC.

I also monitored this control channel a little more and found voice channels on 775.806250 and 775.556250. Neither of these voice channels are assigned to Mascoutah. I did find both voice channels listed as belonging to the Waterloo site, but Waterloo is over 50 miles from my house and there's no way I'm monitoring that site.

 

[Starcom21]

OK, well ISP/SC21 has had 3 locations in St Clair County that duplicate the same sites that are also simulcast towers for T359 the St Clair County sites.
Locations are East St Louis (323 or 353), Mascoutah (301) and Belleville 305. The state transmitters are located on the same tower/site as the county simulcast system.

Those you will hear ISP and other counties traffic and normally no St Clair County Traffic.

I'm assuming you are using a Radio Shack or GRE and can't give a decimal site number?
(You had a 14E ? )

Now, Tower 301 which has been the Mascoutah (formerly called "Fayetteville" on the database), is showing a control channel of 775.34375 as I am typing.

It is very possible that ISP changed locations and moved it to Trenton/Albers.... that we wont' know unless someone goes out searching for the signal. The 700 MHz sites do not have to be specifially site licensed. I had reported about a month ago, I had a feeling there was a new Clinton County site coming. So, doing like you said, if you make a trip, that may help us out.

It makes sense to move the Mascoutah site to Trenton. Very possibly what they did.

I also monitored this control channel a little more and found voice channels on 775.806250 and 775.556250. Neither of these voice channels are assigned to Mascoutah. I did find both voice channels listed as belonging to the Waterloo site,

Well, often when the Control Channel of a 700 MHz site changes, the voice channels change too. Up to this week, the T301 site control channel was different and had other voice channels.

Also, on the 700 MHz sites listed on RadioReference.com database, the voice channels are usually only known if someone has ran a computer program, or monitors the sites and notes them like you just did. The ones listed are probably old, and no one has reported the new voice channels lately.

You're doing good so far! If you get the time, go investigate.

On Monday or Tuesday night, I heard the ISP Radio Techs talking about how well the "tower" (didn't say which one) was getting into Addieville and Nashville. Changing a control channel wouldn't neccesarily make it any better, but changing the physical location sure would!

 

[cifn2]

You mentioned you thought you heard "what sounded Clinton County Sheriff " talking of access to six new ISP channels including the three Detail channels (I assume that the other three are Dispatch A, Dispatch B, and Dispatch C)

I have never heard of any agencies other than ISP having access to ISP frequencies as Starcom has been implemented, and I highly doubt they would open it up, they might have the ability to receive them, but I doubt transmit.

They have no need to be on ISP Dispatch, or Details, ISPERN is patched to Starcom and also IREACH has patches, and then ISP can patch to ISPERN, MERCI and other frequencies.

 

[usswood]

You mentioned you thought you heard "what sounded Clinton County Sheriff " talking of access to six new ISP channels including the three Detail channels (I assume that the other three are Dispatch A, Dispatch B, and Dispatch C)

I have never heard of any agencies other than ISP having access to ISP frequencies as Starcom has been implemented, and I highly doubt they would open it up, they might have the ability to receive them, but I doubt transmit.

They have no need to be on ISP Dispatch, or Details, ISPERN is patched to Starcom and also IREACH has patches, and then ISP can patch to ISPERN, MERCI and other frequencies.

well thats just asking for someone to get hurt...why would ISP not allow there Dispatch TGs not to be accessible by STARCOM members...Sounds like a turf thing...I have heard many users contacting Indiana State police via there DISP TG for information, call assist, or even contacting a State Unit if there not scanning and listening to the county TG. ISNT THIS WHAT INTEROP is ALL ABOUT???

WHY WOULD ISP IN ILL not want that capability for users that might assist ISP and vise/versa

O yeah..I have heard the so called PATCHES in action....THEY DON"T WORK ALL THAT WELL on STARCOM...At least Downstate they DON'T

 

[Starcom21]

I don't believe it has anything to do with "turf".
Simply, too many users with access would only create problems. The dispatchers and troopers can't have others getting on their dispatch systems and messing things up. THAT would be a safety issue.

Yes, often Interop is used as the excuse for these types of systems, but until everyone gets on it, there won't be much interop.

Now, for the most part, it appears a lot of agencies at least still have a VHF radio in their car to be able to access ISPERN and I-REACH for emergency and interop purposes.

The patches in this area work just fine, with the exception of ISPERN patches getting "stuck" on.

St Clair County agencies have had multiple (and still do) patches to their legacy VHF/UHF systems and most things work just fine.

I still haven't heard Clinton County Sheriff in use on any of the towers in my area. (which I am right near Clinton County)

On a side note..... Bond County Sheriff applied for Starcom Frequencies last week, for a site in Greenville.

ULS Application - Public Safety Ntl Plan, 821-824/866-869 MHz, Trunked - 0003752308 - Bond, County of - Administration

Add 000866.58750000 1 1 2 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000867.80000000 1 1 3 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000868.25000000 1 1 4 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000868.72500000 1 1 5 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000866.12500000 1 1 1 FB2 1 100.000 52.700

well thats just asking for someone to get hurt...why would ISP not allow there Dispatch TGs not to be accessible by STARCOM members...Sounds like a turf thing...I have heard many users contacting Indiana State police via there DISP TG for information, call assist, or even contacting a State Unit if there not scanning and listening to the county TG. ISNT THIS WHAT INTEROP is ALL ABOUT???

WHY WOULD ISP IN ILL not want that capability for users that might assist ISP and vise/versa

O yeah..I have heard the so called PATCHES in action....THEY DON"T WORK ALL THAT WELL on STARCOM...At least Downstate they DON'T

 

[usswood]

I don't believe it has anything to do with "turf".
Simply, too many users with access would only create problems. The dispatchers and troopers can't have others getting on their dispatch systems and messing things up. THAT would be a safety issue.

Yes, often Interop is used as the excuse for these types of systems, but until everyone gets on it, there won't be much interop.

Now, for the most part, it appears a lot of agencies at least still have a VHF radio in their car to be able to access ISPERN and I-REACH for emergency and interop purposes.

The patches in this area work just fine, with the exception of ISPERN patches getting "stuck" on.

St Clair County agencies have had multiple (and still do) patches to their legacy VHF/UHF systems and most things work just fine.

I still haven't heard Clinton County Sheriff in use on any of the towers in my area. (which I am right near Clinton County)

On a side note..... Bond County Sheriff applied for Starcom Frequencies last week, for a site in Greenville.

ULS Application - Public Safety Ntl Plan, 821-824/866-869 MHz, Trunked - 0003752308 - Bond, County of - Administration

Add 000866.58750000 1 1 2 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000867.80000000 1 1 3 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000868.25000000 1 1 4 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000868.72500000 1 1 5 FB2 1 100.000 52.700 Add 000866.12500000 1 1 1 FB2 1 100.000 52.700

Simply 2 many users?? R U saying that everyone would have there ISP TG going?? why wouldnt they be on there own TG...I don't understand that statement...what kind of system can't handle users...STARCOM isn't used by that many agencies as it is and there is an overload problem already..WOW...maybe time to scape the system and install one that can handle the STATE..if it is a truely STATE WIDE SYSTEM???

And I would have to disagree on the Patches downstate...I monitor DARWIN and PARIS sites...they dont work that well, most traffic is heavily garbled...also I believe the system picks up parts of ISPERN from other agenices transmitting on it without ISP being patched to it...I not sure if they leave these patches going 24/7, but there is more none traffic and garbled traffic on it than anything...HECK when D12 puts out a BOLO, there not even multiselecting with the patch...how do they expect non STARCOM agencies to even hear there BOLO

 

[N9JIG]

There are many reasons the ISP would not want local agencies operating on their talkgroups. Part of the issue would be channel capacity in the trunked system. Unlike conventional systems trunked users can affect capacity merely by having the talkgroup in the scan list or by monitoring the system.

Also, most agencies are loathe to have other agencies operating on their local channels absent a specific agreement to do so, and that agreement will spell out the specific reasons the channels or talkgroups would be used for.

If a local agency wants to monitor the ISP then they should purchase a scanner to do so. If they need to talk on the ISP channels then they should work out the procedures with the ISP and make arrangements.

The ISP does not provide local dispatch services to other agencies AFAIK, at least not anymore. If they did then those agencies obviously would have to operate on the ISP talkgroups.

IL has many options for interoperability that negates the need for agencies to have everyone elses channels, including ISPERN, IREACH, ITAC, VTAC, UTAC and StarCom21 Interop talkgroups. While many agencies need to monitor the ISP this can be done with a $500 scanner and not affecting the loading of the system.

 

[usswood]

I understand what your saying...thats why I believe the Indiana State Police work better with other agencies in-state, then Illinois State does IMHO...with budget cuts and rising costs I don't think 500 dollar scanners are in the future of your smaller departments.

Maybe the problem is Procedures should have already been in place when the system was designed.

ISP could do all dispatching with the new state system, if all agencies were on it, they would all still have there separate TGs and such,

Just look what ISP in Indiana is doing...going to Regional Dispatch Centers...doesn't mean that each Region will be on the same TG...that would get a little crowded huh

 

[cifn2]

Simply 2 many users?? R U saying that everyone would have there ISP TG going?? why wouldnt they be on there own TG...I don't understand that statement...what kind of system can't handle users...STARCOM isn't used by that many agencies as it is and there is an overload problem already..WOW...maybe time to scape the system and install one that can handle the STATE..if it is a truely STATE WIDE SYSTEM???

And I would have to disagree on the Patches downstate...I monitor DARWIN and PARIS sites...they dont work that well, most traffic is heavily garbled...also I believe the system picks up parts of ISPERN from other agenices transmitting on it without ISP being patched to it...I not sure if they leave these patches going 24/7, but there is more none traffic and garbled traffic on it than anything...HECK when D12 puts out a BOLO, there not even multiselecting with the patch...how do they expect non STARCOM agencies to even hear there BOLO

What in the world are you talking about? The ISPERNS are all broadcast on 155.475 just like they always have been, and actually they are heard before the Starcom users hear them, the Starcom system ISPERNs in D12 are delayed by 1-2 seconds. Local agencies that are non-starcom do in fact receive ISPERN traffic.

You are talking Central IL, not "Downstate" I have heard a MERCI patch as I have stated before, where St. Mary's Lifeflight was given a patient report and landing scene information from a D19 trooper on his portable and St. Mary's Lifeflight gave their information, ETA etc, on MERCI to Starcom patch. It was loud and clear, and worked great.

The system is far from being unused as you want to believe. I don't know if you have heard, but Ameren is moving to Starcom so imagine, all the traffic which used to be handled by their system moving, that does add users too, along with every state police, and IEMA unit to name a few, and then throw in a few locals, some ILEAS, and other interop radios, IDPH, hospitals and more and you got several handfuls of users, which will cause problems at some time.

Most of the heavy garbled patches are long distance patches, and not really needed, for example the other day D11, was coming across D12, and D19 ISPERN patches, not sure why, but it was, could have been a D11 car working in the D12/D19 area, or it could have been the SOS from the D11 down in this area.

Either way I have heard patched communications that sound just fine, and I have heard junk. Most of the ISPERN patches I am not interested in anyways, The ISPERNS come across from the District are loud and clear and simulcast on VHF too.

 

[cifn2]

I understand what your saying...thats why I believe the Indiana State Police work better with other agencies in-state, then Illinois State does IMHO...with budget cuts and rising costs I don't think 500 dollar scanners are in the future of your smaller departments.

Maybe the problem is Procedures should have already been in place when the system was designed.

ISP could do all dispatching with the new state system, if all agencies were on it, they would all still have there separate TGs and such,

Just look what ISP in Indiana is doing...going to Regional Dispatch Centers...doesn't mean that each Region will be on the same TG...that would get a little crowded huh

You want a broke state to hire more dispatchers to handle more radio traffic? Are you kidding me?

Do you realize the amount of radio traffic ISP handles for its self? They handle ISP, CMS, Drug Task Force, Fire Marshal, District Attorney's, just to name a few groups. You want to add Local Police for every agency inside a 8-10 county radius? Are you okay? That is a disaster.

Now on the other hand combining a few of the smaller ISP Districts not number wise but dispatch wise, wouldn't be a bad deal, I don't think.

Who said everyone needs a $500 scanner, I think your beef is with your investment into what you thought would be the golden statue and almighty. Every department has at least 1 starcom radio, they all got them. ILEAS issued all Police Departments that wanted one a radio. All they had to do was sign the paper saying they would take it, they don't have to pay anything, until they transmit, and even that has changed a bit, the costs have went down. I talked to someone at a hospital with one, and they are without charge for a year, then after that it is a yearly fee, IDPH picked up the cost of the first year I believe.

Either way, they have them for if they need them in a disaster, and then they still can use the VHF ISPERN and IREACH to talk to ISP, they will always be around, the system is PATCHED.

 

[usswood]

thats not what Im saying...and Im tired of trying to explain...I think some should research what a TRUNKED RADIO SYSTEM IS ALL ABOUT...and a STATE WIDE SYSTEM AT THAT

This is DOWNSTATE compared to the ones that live in the CHI area

thats what they r doing...not combining districts..just going to Regional Dispatch Centers...it that hard to understand??

No talkgroups will change

 

[N9JIG]

There is no technical reason that the ISP couldn't regionalize dispatch centers, say into 4 centers statewide (Chicago, Rock Island, Peoria and Springfield perhaps) and even combine districts themselves. It would be a fairly simple thing to connect remote sites and controllers via phone lines, T-1's etc. and handle communications thru these regional centers.

That all said, I don't think we will ever see much more than an occasional district merger or a larger district taking over a smaller districts communications (like 18 being handled by 9). There would be a lot of work and expense to actually do such a project, and the actual savings would not be realized quickly. Unless you can prove a quick realization of savings it will be a hard sell for the current state government to make such a drastic move. It would mean the realigning of power and authority, always a big impediment to these projects.

What I can see happening in a practical sense is the combining of some ISP posts here and there as well as some sort of regional sharing by county centers and ISP centers, such as the one in the Chicago area, where Cook County's Comm center is in the ISP facility.

 

[cifn2]

thats not what Im saying...and Im tired of trying to explain...I think some should research what a TRUNKED RADIO SYSTEM IS ALL ABOUT...and a STATE WIDE SYSTEM AT THAT

This is DOWNSTATE compared to the ones that live in the CHI area

thats what they r doing...not combining districts..just going to Regional Dispatch Centers...it that hard to understand??

No talkgroups will change

ISP has the same system in place for interops as Indiana most likely?, they still have towers that receive ISPERN and IREACH and the TAC channels and those go into the Starcom system, and ISPERN goes out to VHF also

You brought up they had regional dispatch centers, but that is more money into play which Illinois doesn't have, what is not to understand about that?

 

[usswood]

isp Has The Same System In Place For Interops As Indiana Most Likely?, They Still Have Towers That Receive Ispern And Ireach And The Tac Channels And Those Go Into The Starcom System, And Ispern Goes Out To Vhf Also

You Brought Up They Had Regional Dispatch Centers, But That Is More Money Into Play Which Illinois Doesn't Have, What Is Not To Understand About That?

Wrong!!!! There are only Mutual Aid TALKGROUPS...CHANNELS and not associated with Trunked Radio Systems sir...there r no ghetto patches for ILEEN or POINT TO POINT (155.370)...everyone has access to the MA talkgroups...and if they leave there area..there r STATE WIDE MA TALKGROUPS to support them. As I said before, our local SO have access to Terre Haute States police Talkgroups and vise versa. Isn't that what INTEROP is all bout....these R Million dollar radio systems...cmon ILL WAKE UP

I didnt say they have Regional Dispatch Centers...I said...because of the system, they are going to Regional Dispatch Centers in the Future..SOON, because the system can handle it