Could FM CB supplant FRS?

[OkieBoyKJ5JFG]

A few months ago, I bought a CB radio for my truck after decades of being off the air. Since September 2021 (IIRC) CBs can use FM mode, and this one has that capability. To my surprise, it also has the capability to use "privacy" (a misnomer, but whatever) tones. So, it's now a radio that transmits in FM mode on a free, channelized service, in essence just like FRS. Unlike FRS, however, it can operate at 4 watts, is allowed to have external antennas, and has 40 channels instead of 22. There's no technical reason why FRS would be a better choice for family/friends traveling together or camping/whatever. The main impediment to widespread adoption of FM CB for "family" communication, as I see it, is the cost of entry. CB radios can be had fairly cheaply, but not as cheaply as the "bubble pack" FRS radios. Is there any chance that FM CB could eventually take a significant portion of the FRS market? (Full disclosure -- I don't really care, I'm just curious.)

 

[W2JGA]

Go visit a big truck stop and listen to regular CB.

Now imagine that crap bleeding over from AM to FM at higher power levels while your kids sit in the back seat wondering what a lot lizard is.

 

[AK4PY]

GMRS is the reason that FM CB will not replace FRS. GMRS is up to 50W and allows repeaters. Checkmate.

 

[ecps92]

GMRS is the reason that FM CB will not replace FRS. GMRS is up to 50W and allows repeaters. Checkmate.

and imagine the Antenna size on a handheld CB vs an FRS or GMRS Bubble pack

 

[W2JGA]

and imagine the Antenna size on a handheld CB vs an FRS or GMRS Bubble pack

I'm sure you can wind enough copper wire inside a piece of plastic to 'radiate' and make the RF section happy.

 

[KK4JUG]

I think it's too little, too late for CB to be anything but what it is right now, regardless of how you try to dress it up.

 

[Hit_Factor]

Nope. No one likes those long antennas on an HT.

 

[WSAC829]

40 channels instead of 22

FRS legally only has 14 channels. The remaining 8 channels of the 22 are supposed to be designated for GMRS. Yet the FCC allowed FRS radios to include channels 15-22, and nobody reads the fine print on the box or manual that says you need a license to use those channels. Now you got kids and family carpools keying and roger beeping all over GMRS repeater frequencies. That was the downfall of GMRS, and probably the reason why the price dropped to $35 for a 10 year license from $85 for 5 years. The FCC really dropped the ball on that one.

 

[W2JGA]

That was the downfall of GMRS, and probably the reason why the price dropped to $35 for a 10 year license from $85 for 5 years. The FCC really dropped the ball on that one.

When did they drop the price? (I paid 85 for mine)

 

[Hit_Factor]

When did they drop the price? (I paid 85 for mine)

Couple years ago.

 

[OkieBoyKJ5JFG]

Valid point. I hadn't thought about the much (muuuuch) longer antenna needed to get any distance at CB wavelengths.

 

[OkieBoyKJ5JFG]

You're probably right about that. It's possible that CB has gone so far down the path of unrighteousness that there's no chance of redemption. It's kinda sad because when I was young, I enjoyed CB a lot. It was not as insane in 1977 as it is now, though.

 

[mmckenna]

FRS legally only has 14 channels. The remaining 8 channels of the 22 are supposed to be designated for GMRS. Yet the FCC allowed FRS radios to include channels 15-22, and nobody reads the fine print on the box or manual that says you need a license to use those channels. Now you got kids and family carpools keying and roger beeping all over GMRS repeater frequencies. That was the downfall of GMRS, and probably the reason why the price dropped to $35 for a 10 year license from $85 for 5 years. The FCC really dropped the ball on that one.

You are a couple of years behind on that statement. FRS now has access to all 22 channels. Been that way for a while. Still has the 1/2 watt/2 watt and non-removeable antenna limitation though.

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

 

[mmckenna]

A few months ago, I bought a CB radio for my truck after decades of being off the air. Since September 2021 (IIRC) CBs can use FM mode, and this one has that capability. To my surprise, it also has the capability to use "privacy" (a misnomer, but whatever) tones.

Yes, PL/DPL makes FM CB useful now. Unfortunately, as @KK4JUG pointed out, we're about 20 years behind most other countries.

So, it's now a radio that transmits in FM mode on a free, channelized service, in essence just like FRS. Unlike FRS, however, it can operate at 4 watts, is allowed to have external antennas, and has 40 channels instead of 22. There's no technical reason why FRS would be a better choice for family/friends traveling together or camping/whatever.

UHF uses a much smaller antenna. It's easier to have a somewhat efficient UHF antenna on a hand held radio. Not so much for CB. Hand held CB's with a reasonable size flexible antenna is going to be a really poor performer with very little ERP.

What most users want is a hand held radio with non-obtrusive antennas. FRS fits that very well. For those of us that grew up when CB was the only real 'license free' option, long antennas were not a great option and broke frequently.

The main impediment to widespread adoption of FM CB for "family" communication, as I see it, is the cost of entry. CB radios can be had fairly cheaply, but not as cheaply as the "bubble pack" FRS radios. Is there any chance that FM CB could eventually take a significant portion of the FRS market? (Full disclosure -- I don't really care, I'm just curious.)

I highly doubt it.

FM on CB uses really narrow bandwidth, 8KHz. FM in the FRS band is permitted to use 12.5KHz. That extra room gives better audio fidelity, which is important in a hand held radio with a small speaker.

The antenna issue has always been the sticking point for average Joe citizen. To make use of the 4 watts FM on CB, you have to have an efficient antenna. That gets to be pretty big, and a lot of people don't want that on their car/van/truck, etc.

CB uses a wavelength of around 36 feet (where the "11 meter band" comes from). FRS wavelength is about 2 feet. That not only means the shorter antennas to be efficient, it also means it penetrates buildings and cars better. So using an FRS hand held radio inside the car, while less than ideal, actually gets enough signal through the windows to be useful. Trying to use a cb hand held in the car, even with a short antenna, is going to suck.

FM CB would have been a great thing 20+ years ago, but that ship sailed and it isn't coming back. There will be those that adopt it, and it has its place in the communications toolbox, but it's not going to revitalize CB, and it's not going to replace FRS/GMRS.

 

[slowmover]

When the need for Citizen Band becomes more clear, the clownish aspect now present will dissipate or be forced off-air.

All other services should be considered in light of intended use. CB is unmatched for being far from home, and in rural America.

FM on CB will be more of an adjunct in HF. I don’t see it as replacement to VHF. It’s where two men are getting together to continue a conversation started on the hailing channel.

.

 

[WSAC829]

You are a couple of years behind on that statement.

Just jumped on the FCC website. Guess you are right, but it still makes part of my statement stand. The FCC screwed up GMRS by allowing it.

 

[AK4PY]

You're probably right about that. It's possible that CB has gone so far down the path of unrighteousness that there's no chance of redemption. It's kinda sad because when I was young, I enjoyed CB a lot. It was not as insane in 1977 as it is now, though.

I hear a group of locals on CB all the time in the evenings. They sound like a nice bunch. If this was all CB was then I'd love it. Unfortunately, when the band opens, if you ever wondered what it might have been like in an insane asylum, well... wonder no more. WIIIIIRRRRRLLLLLL WIIIIIIIDDDDDEEEEE... AND I JUST GOT DOWN, READIN THE MAIL. These people sure get a lot of mail.

 

[dylanmitchell]

A 27 Mhz 1/4 wave antenna is 9 feet. GMRS 1/4 wave is 6 inches and 1/2 wave would be 13 inches. Same reasonmost portable ham radios are UHF/ VHF.

 

[spongella]

That is such a great question. I've had many different GMRS, FRS, and Pre-FM CB radios over the years, base and mobile.
Just going to throw out some off-the-cuff ideas from experience. None are criticisms or recommendations though. Commenters, feel free to shoot any of these ideas down, I'm 73 and can take it hihi.

FM CB lacks the use of repeaters whereas GMRS gives you that option if you require it. Repeaters can greatly increase your range if they are available in your area. You may have to pay for use.

GMRS/FRS is limited in range while FM CB can give you hundreds or thousands of mile contacts depending on ionospheric conditions.

You don't need to apply for a license with CB, at least in the USA. GMRS requires one. FRS doesn't.

You'll need larger antennas for both mobile and base operations for CB.

There are many more manufacturers of GMRS/FRS equipment, not as many in the CB world. CB handheld units are not as plentiful as GMRS/FRS also.

CB is limited to 40 channels and 5 watts input. Use of a 11m amplifier was made illegal years ago by the FCC. If I remember, when I had my GMRS license the max was 50W.

CB radios are generally more expensive too.

Hope this helps.

 

[spongella]

When did they drop the price? (I paid 85 for mine)

Me too $85, ouch.