Could the FCC "sunset" all American amateur radio?

[kb9mwr]

@jwt873

Good info, the problem is in the eyes of legislators and such, they reference our basis and purpose section for our continued justification to spectrum access. Amateur Radio has only tiny slivers of spectrum in other countires (if any at all), and that could also happen in the US.

In the minds of regulators, Amateur Radio isn’t much more socially relevant than blacksmithing is to modern manufacturing.

What I am about to present isn't new. Bruce, K6BP wrote a well thought and researched overview in 2017 in response to a Technological Advisory Council (TAC) on reforming rechnical regulations accross all FCC radio services.

Several of the personal radio service rules (Part 95) were subsquenctly.

FCC to Consider Changes to Part 95 Rules - Radio World

FCC Personal Radio Service Revisions Will Affect GMRS, FRS, CB, Other Part 95 Devices

And some are still in motion:
https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-374114A1.pdf

Meanwhile there are number of ham radio requests, some even from the ARRL that have gone no where. (Symbol Rate Petition of 2013, and the 2018 Technician Enhancement Proposal). And as Bruce pointed out most of our regulations have been unchanged for 65 years or more.


Our Basis and Purpose MUST be freshened up to relect the educational benefits and purposes for continued justification of spectrum allocation to the Amateur Service.

Our emergency services role continues to diminish (with the advent of FirstNet and Starlink) and the other currently-stated missions of Amateur Radio have already reached irrelevance.

Examples:
Bruce pointed out the context of "enhance international goodwill" was written before direct dialing of long distance calls (transatlantic telephone cables). So, Radio Amateurs were the only people who regularly had casual conversations with people overseas.

He also pointed out that the word "reservoir" is critical to understanding this statement:
"Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts"

The U.S. was at war in Korea as this statement was written, and World War II had concluded less than a decade before. The military had a need for a reservoir of trained radiotelegraph operators who could go to war.

Bruce pointed out the word “education” doesn’t appear in §97.1, and there is no tie-in to the oft-promoted need to educate young citizens in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics).

So while I don't think the FCC would sunset all of ham radio (as you point out they can't), just their inaction on regulatory matters is our own slow death. And maybe that is the intent?

 

[bill4long]

Our Basis and Purpose MUST be freshened up to relect the educational benefits and purposes for continued justification of spectrum allocation to the Amateur Service.

Naaaa. My prediction is that things will continue as they are, and if the regulators get to the point they don't want to bother with it any more, they'll turn administration and enforcement completely over to the ARRL and be done with it.

As for the spectrum occupied by hams, it's not very valuable to anyone, if at all. Too many new commericial/public-safety bands for anyone to salivate over 2m and 220. Military is primary on 440, and hams are already secondary. (The microwave frequencies may still hold some interest, butonly a very tiny number of people use those.) Maybe 20 years ago those frequencies may have held interest, but not now. The HF frequencies have absolutely zero value to anyone else. Not to mention the treaties that would be violated if they got turned over to other services. The whole idea of terminating ham radio is absurd because it solves no problems, causes problems, and would piss off an army of radio guys, many of which would give the middle finger salute and keep operating anyway.

 

[jwt873]

@jwt873


What I am about to present isn't new. Bruce, K6BP wrote a well thought and researched overview in 2017 in response to a Technological Advisory Council (TAC) on reforming rechnical regulations accross all FCC radio services.

I read it.. It's a great overview of the current state of affairs and he provides some compelling arguments regarding the need for the 'modernization' of the hobby. He does recognize that the ITU plays a major part in spectrum management.

One thing to note is that we've done pretty well on the HF front. Apart from the traditional bands that were permanently assigned for amateur use back in 1927, we've received other frequencies. At the ITU's World Administrative Radio Conference in 1979, we got the 30, 17 and 12 meter bands. (Often referred to as the WARC bands). Not too long ago we were given access to the 60 meter 'channels' and the 630 and 2200 meter bands

Since VHF/UHF and above does not normally propagate worldwide like HF does (where it can cause interference), ITU member countries have more latitude on what can be done with this part of the spectrum. They definitely can gobble up current amateur bands. I have a group of friends that are VHF/UHF geeks that regularly use ALL the bands up to 10 Ghz.. One has done moonbounce at 47 Ghz and mountaintop to mountaintop work at 78 Ghz. They have great concerns that they may lose swaths of spectrum rendering a lot of expensive equipment useless.

Can the amateur community lose VHF/UHF spectrum.. Yes.. Can the FCC sunset all American ham radio (as per the topic of this thread). That's a yes too. They just have to cancel all the ham licenses. (I suspect that would spark a legal challenge).

But, in order to stay in good standing with the ITU, they can't assign licenses for any other services to operate on the frequencies internationally assigned for ham radio. So what would be the point of sun-setting ham radio?

 

[bill4long]

I read it..

I read it too. And whatever else he might say, I was a little taken aback by this:

So much valuable spectrum would not be allocated simply to facilitate the operation of a private club of
tech nerds.

I mean, really now, what's really in this guy's head? That's just plain awful and patently ridiculous. Ham radio spectrum isn't valuable, it's not a private club, and it's hardly populated by "tech nerds." Whatever else he might say, this reveals the mind of a screwball, in my opinion.

It doesn't really matter. It's been several years. The FCC doesn't care about his rantings and ravings.

I don't care what people say, Amateur Radio is here to stay!

 

[vagrant]

What K6BP wrote is wonky all over the place. For one, he identifies operators as a private club of tech nerds, but then later suggests a $50 a year licensing fee. That would further the point he argues against. Oh look, how kind. He offers a waiver to children and those with limited incomes. You know, people that cannot afford the annual fee, but can afford the radio gear. As bill4long noted, it is ridiculous and not a private club. Still, I may fit the desorption of a tech nerd to some degree. You will need to use the special handshake to know who I am.

Even more absurd is that 90% of that money be dedicated to enforcement and administration of the "Amateur service". What exactly does that mean? He advises that it be used for people and offices be setup with that $30-$40 million dollars annual money. You know, people that aren't there now because amateur radio isn't a problem that needs $30+ million thrown at it. Also, where the hell does that remaining 10% of the money go and why? Weird man...weird. Some parts of that is a smattering of words that does not convey a thing. It is a weird rambling.

As to the topic, I think this guy said it best.

Ludicrous

 

[kb9mwr]

You don't have to agree with the whole thing.

I think the private club of tech nerds/ suggests a $50 a year licensing fee thing is that;
He is pointing out the spectrum we are holding could be made available to a larger group instead of us "tech nerds", and that would benefit the public more that way. And that he is suggesting that if it is to continue as it has, then the fee is to justify the license processing that has traditionaly be absorbed (he also suggests it could cover some enforcement costs).

Keep in mind, Bruce, K6BP wrote that before the present fee was implemented. He did his homework and knew something was comming down the pike. And what is to say the current $35 won't go up? We all know it doesn't cover any type of enforcement. So his hint at offloading the whole amateur service to a 3rd party really doesn't seem half baked to me, and it might be to advantage to do so IF that could be pulled off somehow.

Back to the reset of it, I think he has some very good observations, namely the basis and purpose should be freshened, regulation by bandwidth is overdue, and the 15 dB amplfier gain rule is hindering modern implementations using SDR's with low drives like the hackRF, etc/

As for no one wanting our bands and the false sense of security that comes with being a secondary user:

Backin 2019 there was a bill proposing to build an Internet kill switch nad part of what was HR 607 (Broadband for First Responders Act of 2011) that posed a threat to the lower part of the 70 cm band. The proposal was that the Dept. of Homeland Security was going to in-effect build a 400 MHz WiFi network, for if the switch was ever thrown.

Recently our 3 GHz allocation was rescinded where the Radiolocation service was primary, with us being secondary for most of the amateur allocation.

 

[dlwtrunked]

I think you are dating yourself with some of these beliefs.

Most major municipalities/counties/states now have redundant communications systems that have backup generator power in multiple locations, communications trailers (COWs) and satellite capabilities. Most minor municipalities don't even have an EOC. I have never seen an amateur operator at our EOC and can attest to the fact that even when they are present at events, such as the Boston Marathon, their interaction with public safety for communications purposes is almost non-existent.

That said, I do carry a HT with me on Marathon Monday just in case, but I am the anomaly. In the past, your statements were true, but as time has moved forward, the amateur operator has been far outpaced by technology and, as a result, is becoming more and more irrelevant as a tool for assisting public safety.

You live in an area where where tornado and hurricanes are relatively rare. Our county and the adjacent major county both have ham stations in the EOCs that are activated each year during weather emergencies and my county has amateur radio as part of its response to a possible emergency at the nearby nuclear power plant (that is required in the licensing of such). In one case of a hurricane, I was sent to a county shelter and when the power went out, their generator (serviced two weeks earlier) failed leaving me the only one with power. We also supported the Red Cross during the same storm. And their have been others. The local club supports comms at many activities. If your area is not doing such, their is no real emergencies, no activities, or you local hams are not taking initiative. But that is not true of many parts of the country.

 

[N4GIX]

I think I may have mentioned some few months ago that here in NW Indiana (District 1) a group of us hams resurrected ARES. Last month we were activated to help out by providing communications for civilian volunteers. A young, autistic boy had gone missing from the hotel where his family was staying, having traveled from St. Louis, MO for a wedding.

Emergency folks from three counties and many townships, as well as some police and fire personnel from Illinois gathered together after the first night's search ended with the boy still missing. Altogether nearly 400 volunteers showed up early on Saturday morning, and were briefed on the proposed search operation. The "professional responders" maintained their own communications, but several of the ARES volunteers set up a net on the 2m N9IAA super-wide area repeater, and acted as a liaison with the professional responder's net control.

The civilian volunteers were divided into as many groups as the ARES personnel were available. Their assignments were given to each search group by the coordinator based on a grid square he and his team had designed. They were to search only within their assigned area, checking every house and back yard, or any where else a scared and lost 11 year old boy might be hiding...

After five days of searching, the boy was finally found when the authorities built a coffer dam upstream to lower the water level in the Little Calumet river. Sadly the boy had fallen into the river and drowned. His body was found tangled up in bushes that caught and held the body under water.

The main point I'm making is that ARES members served as "force multipliers" by freeing up the professional responders to do what they do best. None of them had to be distracted from that duty to provide comms for the volunteer groups. That task was what ARES can do best. Many of us in ARES District 1 are also trained weather spotters, and regularly take part in that whenever we have severe weather move through our area.

 

[vagrant]

@kb9mwr - The bands amateurs use are already available to people that can pass the various exams, regardless of skin tone, sexual identity, hair color, or lack of hair, etc. Seriously, if a person is unable pass the Technician exam they are more of a liability than an asset to the spectrum amateurs use as well as themselves. Fortunately, there are other services that are licensed, but do not require a test (GMRS). We also have frequencies allocated that are license by rule. Hurrah us! There are also people smarter than I that do not want an amateur license and are quite happy with GMRS and or the licensed by rule options. Hurrah them!

Yes, there is a door one needs to open in order to use the allocated amateur frequencies. Everyone is welcome to come through the door. Still, if they do not have the intelligence to turn a door knob (pass the exam), there are other options for them to use.

 

[merlin]

While they have the power to do so it is never going to happen.

 

[Citywide173]

You live in an area where where tornado and hurricanes are relatively rare. Our county and the adjacent major county both have ham stations in the EOCs that are activated each year during weather emergencies and my county has amateur radio as part of its response to a possible emergency at the nearby nuclear power plant (that is required in the licensing of such). In one case of a hurricane, I was sent to a county shelter and when the power went out, their generator (serviced two weeks earlier) failed leaving me the only one with power. We also supported the Red Cross during the same storm. And their have been others. The local club supports comms at many activities. If your area is not doing such, their is no real emergencies, no activities, or you local hams are not taking initiative. But that is not true of many parts of the country.

You are quoting me out of context. My post was a reply to a post that contained the following statement:

During disasters when federal, state and local infrastructures go down the amateur radios operators are the only group I know that are self

supporting. They have the means to be back up and running way before the local infrastructure would be.

So I must ask, was the county shelter set up as the EOC for the county? Did the county communications system go down county wide because of this outage? What other public safety agencies were present that didn't have commnication capabilities (one would hope that portable coverage was designed for the whole county?) What would the impact have been if you had not been present?

Today's systems are much more resilient, redundant and reliable. To claim that amateur operators are as important a part in supporting those systems as they were in the past is just nostalgic wishing.

 

[dlwtrunked]

You are quoting me out of context. My post was a reply to a post that contained the following statement:

So I must ask, was the county shelter set up as the EOC for the county? Did the county communications system go down county wide because of this outage? What other public safety agencies were present that didn't have commnication capabilities (one would hope that portable coverage was designed for the whole county?) What would the impact have been if you had not been present?

Today's systems are much more resilient, redundant and reliable. To claim that amateur operators are as important a part in supporting those systems as they were in the past is just nostalgic wishing.

The county shelter was in a school and set up by the county. The link there by amateur radio was back to the amateur station that is a permanent part of the county EOC. Similar activities occur in our surrounding counties. I have also been sent out as backup when the county 800 MHz system had issues, as a backup. Another time, the county system was rebooted and I was sent to a local fire department as a backup if the reboot failed. All this was not that long ago. We also have stations at the local hospitals. We are an important part of the local nuclear power plant emergency drills (in the county EOC and riding in SO vehicles which alert areas that sirens do not cover and even taking care of reading dosimeters so the deputy can keep driving). Also spent 39 1/2 hours as the Pentagon with other amateurs helping provide comms for entities supporting the recovery personnel until mobile cell sites were brought in to help with the cell phone overload. By the way, during the earthquake on the east coast, the landline and cell systems again were overloaded (and I know from being here that it was longer than they said.) Resilient, redundant, and reliable--things can go wrong and I can guarantee that at some level they will but will not speculate further. One should not assume one area or perceptions apply to the rest of the country.

 

[Citywide173]

The county shelter was in a school and set up by the county. The link there by amateur radio was back to the amateur station that is a permanent part of the county EOC. Similar activities occur in our surrounding counties. I have also been sent out as backup when the county 800 MHz system had issues, as a backup. Another time, the county system was rebooted and I was sent to a local fire department as a backup if the reboot failed. All this was not that long ago. We also have stations at the local hospitals. We are an important part of the local nuclear power plant emergency drills (in the county EOC and riding in SO vehicles which alert areas that sirens do not cover and even taking care of reading dosimeters so the deputy can keep driving). Also spent 39 1/2 hours as the Pentagon with other amateurs helping provide comms for entities supporting the recovery personnel until mobile cell sites were brought in to help with the cell phone overload. By the way, during the earthquake on the east coast, the landline and cell systems again were overloaded (and I know from being here that it was longer than they said.) Resilient, redundant, and reliable--things can go wrong and I can guarantee that at some level they will but will not speculate further. One should not assume one area or perceptions apply to the rest of the country.

So your County system doesn't have a fallback mode? They don't have enough faith in a routine reboot that they feel the need to involve outside volunteers to ensure that communications are uninterrupted? This isn't an issue of ARES, it's an issue of an incompetent system designer/manager/vendor. I am not against ARES, just don't think the relevance is what it was years ago and using it as an argument against the FCC sunsetting amateur radio is weak at best.

 

[bill4long]

So your County system doesn't have a fallback mode? They don't have enough faith in a routine reboot that they feel the need to involve outside volunteers to ensure that communications are uninterrupted? This isn't an issue of ARES, it's an issue of an incompetent system designer/manager/vendor. I am not against ARES, just don't think the relevance is what it was years ago and using it as an argument against the FCC sunsetting amateur radio is weak at best.

Some counties don't have money to burn on massive comms redundancy. His county may be one of those situations where the local hams have a close relationship to the county comms manager and can reliably provide valuble assistance. You do what you can with what you have. Not all ARES groups are created equal. Let's not let bigotry and prejudice from afar color the conversation.

 

[Citywide173]

Some counties don't have money to burn on massive comms redundancy. His county may be one of those situations where the local hams have a close relationship to the county comms manager and can reliably provide valuble assistance. You do what you can with what you have. Not all ARES groups are created equal. Let's not let bigotry and prejudice from afar color the conversation.

Fallback mode is not a massive comms redundancy. In public safety, it is generally specified in the bid.

I still stand by my statement that the existence of ARES would not be a compelling argument for the FCC to not sunset all American amateur radio, which was the post I initially responded to until the poster I replied to took my comment out of context, but now I'm being portrayed as bigoted and predjudiced. If anyone can produce an argument to that statement, not one off local antecdotes that apply to small areas, but the country as a whole, I'm all ears.

 

[mmckenna]

Fallback mode is not a massive comms redundancy. In public safety, it is generally specified in the bid.

I agree. I have several public safety systems with redundancy, and it's not a big deal. It's not usually a fully duplicated hot standby system, but it might be a single repeated channel at an alternate site.
With trunked systems, you have failsoft.
With conventional systems, there may be multiple sites, simplex channels, and MOU's with other agencies. Locally we have agreements between all the city/county agencies to utilize their radio systems in the event of a failure. Our officers can easily switch over to the adjacent city and/or county SO systems and keep working. Our PD can also fall back on our fire department radio system, as well as public works/local government channels.
We also have cellular and satellite options.
Generators with a week's worth of fuel and 24-72 hours worth of batteries is pretty common around here. I even have portable generators that can be deployed if needed. I keep spare antennas, spare Heliax, spare connectors, spare repeaters, etc. in our spares stock. So while a primary system may be down, we have alternate choices while I repair what is broken.

My experience on both the ham side and the professional side is that most hams are not well versed in public safety radio systems. The hams I've talked to seemed to think that we're running 1960's era repeaters with tubes off an old rotten extension cord and a 1968 Craftsman generator that hasn't had it's oil changed in 10 years. Their feeling is that the system is just one good kick away from failing. Might be the case in some areas, but no where around me.
With the large number of simplex nationwide interop frequencies, the need to have hams standing by to take over is greatly reduced. At least for those agencies that were smart enough to program those IFOG frequencies into all their radio -and- train users to utilize them.

Ham radio absolutely can play a role in this stuff, but lets keep it based on some sort of reality. Utilizing ham radio to off load non-critical traffic while the public safety agency is on a backup system is a good approach. In my 30 years of doing this, including earthquakes, fires and protests, our agency has never needed to call in hams to provide communications. It's a good option to have, but we've never needed it.

 

[bill4long]

Fallback mode is not a massive comms redundancy. In public safety, it is generally specified in the bid.

I still stand by my statement that the existence of ARES would not be a compelling argument for the FCC to not sunset all American amateur radio, which was the post I initially responded to until the poster I replied to took my comment out of context, but now I'm being portrayed as bigoted and predjudiced. If anyone can produce an argument to that statement, not one off local antecdotes that apply to small areas, but the country as a whole, I'm all ears.

Have you ever opened your wallet to pay for whatever comms you think should obtain?

I'm gonna say....

No.

 

[bill4long]

My experience..... It's a good option to have, but we've never needed it.

That's a beautiful and wonderful thing. And I clap my hands proudly.

But the USA is a huge country with all kinds of situations that may not line up with your experience. And the other guy's.

Just sayin'.

P.S. You have great skills, I like to read what you write, But it's a big country. CA doesn't rule the country (thank God), as much as some people think it should. For a whole lotta reasons. Humility is a good thing.

(P.S. Born and raised in Los Angeles.)

 

[mmckenna]

That's a beautiful and wonderful thing. And I clap my hands proudly.

But the USA is a huge country with all kinds of situations that may not line up with your experience. And the other guy's.

Just sayin'.

And that's exactly why I said: "It's a good option to have, but we've never needed it."
Wether or not my experience matches others, the fact is in 25 years at the same place, we've never needed to call in amateurs.

I know some places in the south with hurricanes utilize hams with HF gear to get traffic in/out of the area. That's a great resource to have. We have several satellite phones and M-Sat terminals that can link us to others, so I'm not sure what hams would provide that we can't already do ourselves. But maybe it's that living in earthquake country that has taught us to be prepared to take care of ourselves for a while.

P.S. You have great skills, I like to read what you write,

Well, thanks I appreciate that.

 

[dlwtrunked]

So your County system doesn't have a fallback mode? They don't have enough faith in a routine reboot that they feel the need to involve outside volunteers to ensure that communications are uninterrupted? This isn't an issue of ARES, it's an issue of an incompetent system designer/manager/vendor. I am not against ARES, just don't think the relevance is what it was years ago and using it as an argument against the FCC sunsetting amateur radio is weak at best.

They did the right thing. To do to otherwise would would have been incompetent. "Faith" should not be part of any comms system, a backup should.