Could the FCC "sunset" all American amateur radio?

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Boombox

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An SWL here, but I've monitored HF ham activity since I had a radio capable -- a long time ago.

I don't know about UHF and SHF spectrum, but trying to 'sunset' or re-appropriate any HF ham bands would be an unworkable mistake. HF is international in scope, and if the Federal government decided for some crazy reason to sunset the bands you'd still have all these transceivers kicking around that just need a power supply and an antenna to get on the air, outband style (as another RR member said way upthread).

Sunsetting the HF ham bands would make them all the equivalent of the 11 meter CB band today.

Two meters is also probably safe. A lot of public services left the VHF High band a long time ago. It's not like they seem to be clamoring to get it all back, and the hams' 4 Mhz too.
 

Citywide173

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Have you ever opened your wallet to pay for whatever comms you think should obtain?

I'm gonna say....

No.
No, but when I owned my shop I did wrte specs/bids that included redundancy and fallback capabilities. I always pointed out that it was an additional cost that could be removed, but I never had a customer take it out. I did take into consideration that many of these proposals were being made to cash strapped public safety agencies (late 80s/early 90s.) So I wasn't really taking money out of my wallet to pay for it, but I was willing to not put it into my wallet if the customer couldn't afford it, which never happened.
 

Citywide173

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They did the right thing. To do to otherwise would would have been incompetent. "Faith" should not be part of any comms system, a backup should.
No, the right thing would be to have the redundancy and preparation in place so that if the reboot failed, communications would still be possible on the system. It's a trunked system, it's not like they're operating on equipment from the 50's. There should be a failsoft mode that switches the system to a single (or multiple depending on the number of sites) repeated frequency if the reboot were to fail. This is stuff that has been specified by agencies for years as well as recommended by vendors. The cost is negligible and if it isn't in place, that falls sqaurely on the system manager. I have built systems. I still have faith in those systems 25+ years later-even though I have moved on from the radio business, the systems are still there. If you build it right, faith is absolutely part of a system.
 

dlwtrunked

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A
No, the right thing would be to have the redundancy and preparation in place so that if the reboot failed, communications would still be possible on the system. It's a trunked system, it's not like they're operating on equipment from the 50's. There should be a failsoft mode that switches the system to a single (or multiple depending on the number of sites) repeated frequency if the reboot were to fail. This is stuff that has been specified by agencies for years as well as recommended by vendors. The cost is negligible and if it isn't in place, that falls sqaurely on the system manager. I have built systems. I still have faith in those systems 25+ years later-even though I have moved on from the radio business, the systems are still there. If you build it right, faith is absolutely part of a system.

And if that did not work? there are no absolute guarantees. And it was not the county doing this reboot, it was the the manufacturer. They\ did a responsible thing. We have a very good relationship with the county and are part of those plans. The nearby nuclear power plant drills require that we be involved as we are independent of the county system. It is clear that you really just do not like ham radio or live in an area where ist is less well organized or does not have a good relationship with the local governments.. All 4 surrounding counties here, the nearby city, and the 3 hospital have amateur stations ready as backup and they are regularly tested. he amateurs inside the county EOC have background checks. Some of us (including myself) were even brought into VIPS (Volunteers in Police Service requiring background checks and regular training) and assist Search and Rescue Operations by operating the the mobile command post using their frequencies (not amateur radio). Just last week,we assisted in finding a women that had been lost in thick wilderness of the county for 5 days in extreme heat (she was OK); and have had to do such a couple times a year. If your locatl clubs do no have a relationship with the local governments, that is someones error. But if you do not have a nuclear power plant, hurricanes, tornados, and vast rural areas, then maybe you do not really need such.
 
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Duckford

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I have built systems. I still have faith in those systems 25+ years later-even though I have moved on from the radio business, the systems are still there. If you build it right, faith is absolutely part of a system.

You may be right about that. However, absolute faith in a piece of technology is another matter.....
 

DeoVindice

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An SWL here, but I've monitored HF ham activity since I had a radio capable -- a long time ago.

I don't know about UHF and SHF spectrum, but trying to 'sunset' or re-appropriate any HF ham bands would be an unworkable mistake. HF is international in scope, and if the Federal government decided for some crazy reason to sunset the bands you'd still have all these transceivers kicking around that just need a power supply and an antenna to get on the air, outband style (as another RR member said way upthread).

Sunsetting the HF ham bands would make them all the equivalent of the 11 meter CB band today.

Two meters is also probably safe. A lot of public services left the VHF High band a long time ago. It's not like they seem to be clamoring to get it all back, and the hams' 4 Mhz too.

To be frank, it's moreso business/industrial that would like 2m, not public safety. There's a real need for additional VHF-Hi spectrum.

Being both a business/industrial licensee and a ham, I can see both sides of that.
 

N4DES

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Could they, yes. Will they, doubt it. But what they (the FCC) will continue to do is to chip away at the spectrum we have as either a primary or secondary user to the highest bidder. I anticipate in the future all that will be left is 6 Meters, 2 Meters, a reduced 70cm, and HF.

6G, that is in current development will reduce, if not eliminate the rest of the microwave spectrum when it eventually rolls out.
 

MTS2000des

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I don't see VHF or below useful for 6G. Lower frequencies require larger antennas which limits effectiveness of subscribers wanting internal and smaller/thinner devices, and as has been proven with low band DTV, susceptible to interference (which is abundant from man made sources) and then is subject to propagation anomalies like tropospheric ducting, sporadic-E, etc.
UHF OTOH, has great potential for "long range" cellular. But they'll have to evict the military and Federal users first and I don't see them just packing up and leaving.
 

dlwtrunked

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I always wondered what antenna system amateurs would use at an EOC that would survive (or be up and running) before public infrastructure would be. Is there simply an allotment of jacks the amateur would use to connect their own antenna to?

I'll admit I'm biased against ARES/RACES/SkyWARN. In the few cities I've listened to it, it's a complete mess. In one area, many people were reporting nothing significant, but one gentleman was reporting hail and funnel clouds, and he was within 1 mile of other observers. In another area, people would key up over one another and declare wind speeds without any equipment. I might as well get grandma to give me the weather and her estimates. *shrug*

In our case, in local counties and city EOC, the amateur station is a permanent fixture with its own antennas (including HF). The problem is rarely antennas at the EOC, it is more likely to be some sort of failure at their repeater site. In addition, we can use our own antennas inside the EOC to communicate to various repeater in the area.
By the way, the NWC trains Skywarn people how to accurately estimate wind speed without equipment--this is necessary as many (most?) significant observations are made while mobile (preventing a weather station) as one is outside. Much of what you complained about them reporting is what the NWS wants them to report. Most NWS operations have a licensed amateur and equipment in their building. SkyWARN is a NWS program that includes amateur radio as only one of its components.
 

xmo

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bill4long wrote: " Let me ask the question a different way: why does anyone think they "need" VHF-Hi? "
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There are a number of statewide VHF systems. Finding enough frequencies for 60 or more trunked sites with 4,5, or more frequency pairs eats up spectrum in a hurry. 60x5x2=600 frequencies. Now try to coordinate that with existing local operations and adjacent states.

4 MHz of virgin spectrum would help immensely.

That said - 2 meters has to be the most popular ham band. Vacating that would be very challenging. Plus - the people who would benefit most don't have the deep pockets to get the FCC's attention. If they were flush, these licensees would have just spent more for enough sites to get the needed coverage on 700 or 800.
 

mmckenna

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I agree. I tried to coordinate 3 VHF pairs for a multsite simulcast system and was not successful. Too many large 7/800MHz regional trunked systems that haven't been forced to give up the 40-50 VHF pairs that are still licensed "just in case".

4 MHz of virgin spectrum would help immensely.

The federal government/NTIA has a lot of VHF spectrum tied up. I know they need it, but the amount they have and sloppy arsed coordination could easily squeeze that down.
 

drdispatch

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Could they, yes. Will they, doubt it. But what they (the FCC) will continue to do is to chip away at the spectrum we have as either a primary or secondary user to the highest bidder. I anticipate in the future all that will be left is 6 Meters, 2 Meters, a reduced 70cm, and HF.

6G, that is in current development will reduce, if not eliminate the rest of the microwave spectrum when it eventually rolls out.
Yes, the old "Death by a thousand cuts" scheme.
 

alcahuete

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It's not that there aren't any VHF pairs available, it's that once people have them, they sit on them forever, even if they haven't used them in years. So many business users and various agencies have moved on to UHF long ago, but keep their allocations. I don't blame them, but it's a crappy way for the FCC to do business.

Same exact thing is true with amateur radio. Here in Southern California, it is potentially a decade long wait to get a coordinated VHF pair. But so many repeaters are either off the air, or sit unused.

And don't even get me started on the huge swaths of frequencies allocated to the military, that they haven't touched in years.

FCC needs to step in and stop the frequency camping once and for all. If you don't have an active system, you're done. It comes right off your license.
 

mmckenna

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FCC needs to step in and stop the frequency camping once and for all. If you don't have an active system, you're done. It comes right off your license.

I went out of my way many years ago to go through all our frequencies and cancel anything that wasn't in use. I only had two VHF frequencies I released, one was a paging channel that couldn't be used for anything else, and the other one some Arse-Hat frequency coordinator had put another fire department on without clearing it with us first. "Whoops, sorry….".
 

902

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Have you tried coordinating a VHF-Hi pair in a major urban area?

I have.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. VHF high band is a big garbage can. They don't need MORE frequencies with the same failed methodologies. They need RESPONSIBILITY on all fronts.

What needs to happen:

1. The "powers that be" have to get away from the mindset of "selling frequencies" to STEWARDING frequencies. That won't happen because stewardship doesn't make for revenue.

2. NO ONE needs 40 km AOP unless your jurisdiction is that big or bigger. I've seen so many 1 square mile towns that have tried to BS their way into "needing" the frequency for 25 miles in all directions. The database needs to get away from this "beer can" methodology (put a beer can on a map and draw a circle). Submit a shapefile or KML of your jurisdiction, add a 3 mile buffer, and make your service contour not exceed that area. Period. That means directional antennas, no mountaintops to cover the valley below, and all the other things that co-opt the frequency for 8 states. If you're a state or a gigantic county, that's one thing. But for small communities, I'd follow the NYC/NJ 700 MHz RPC (Region 8) methodology of statistically putting 80% of the signal inside the defined service area and a buffer around it. Bad news for scanner land because you shouldn't be able to hear it 120 miles away under normal conditions.

3. The FCC screwed up on their poor attempt at "refarming." In fact, they abandoned that and just took the lazy man's way out by calling it “narrowbanding.” Probably just as well, because it would have turned into building the pyramids, like the NPSPAC "rebanding" shuffle, except without a transition administrator or the deep pockets of a "buyer" paying for the shuffle.

What was needed from the FCC were these things:

a) 6.25 kHz channel centers, just like the NTIA channels. 4K00 emissions go on the 6.25 kHz centers. 7K60, 8K10, and 11K2 emissions go on the 12.5 kHz centers. That way there is no spill-over into adjacent channels. Instead, by halving 15 kHz, we put 11K2 of turds into a 7.5 kHz bag. It spills over. So, you can’t use the adjacent channel anywhere near an incumbent. If it were based on 6.25 centers, all of these technologies would fit within their allotted channelspace and the adjacent could be used. Narrowbanding really didn’t fix anything except for getting older, often garbage, equipment off the street.

b) License base and repeater receivers, or at least record them in ULS. The reason that doesn’t happen, aside from the monumental undertaking, is that the FCC doesn’t really have the funding to significantly change ULS. They were supposed to go to a “Consolidated Licensing System” (“CLS”) about 12 years ago, and it was never funded. It went away. So, every time Congress throws something at them, they must find the funding to react and adjust ULS. Licensing receiver sites and antennas gives real spectrum managers an idea of what to protect instead of guessing. Canada also licenses system receivers and, in international matters, will object to any frequency reuse that isn’t demonstrated to go down to the noisefloor under normal conditions at that site.

c) The FCC neglected to direct a standard repeater offset on VHF high band. Instead, they are picked at random. My repeater input is someone else’s repeater output. If their CTCSS or CDCSS is the same as mine, they will key my repeater and never even know it. It’s even worse when someone attempts to deploy a VHF trunked system (an abomination of nature, like breeding cats and dogs), or an atypical channel occupancy pattern, like DMR with AVL on the second timeslot keeping the repeater transmitting for almost 24 hours constantly. There needed to be a standard split with NO base station operation whatsoever on the mobile frequencies. There are “mobile only” channels in 90.20. And, the FCC allowed exceptions for “secondary use” of base stations on those channels. NO MEANS NO. No secondary use of base stations on mobile only frequencies.

d) Segregating simplex systems from repeaters. No one ever thought it was important to segregate simplex operations from repeater operations. My hometown fire department was on VHF simplex, and it worked fine until the band got crowded. A manufacturer put up a big simulcast system 75 miles away in another state, and my guys were taking a beating in a basement fire, potentially calling MAYDAY, when I’m hearing Mountain Zeke and Clem yacking about driving down Rt. 18 and picking up the tanker and finding parking spaces near the firehouse for their pickup trucks. 75 miles away. And, we couldn’t hear in-town simplex traffic anymore. The police were no better on their VHF simplex system. Simplex needs to be segregated from repeaters. For a while, they were forced to use cardioid patterns because of a complaint I filed in 1988, but more and more agencies turned up on the frequency and the noise made its use intolerable. The neighboring town shared the channel. For their 3 square miles, they had 8 voting receivers just to hear portable traffic in their 3 square miles because of all the blocking. And, NO MEANS NO. No repeaters on simplex channels, although talk-around should be allowed on repeater output frequencies. Because segregating repeaters and simplex systems isn't a thing, the agencies abandoned VHF and went to a UHF repeater which has been chugging since 1994.

4. The “preparers” are usually clerical workers before someone handed them a generic application as a template and they started demanding powers and ERPs over 90.205 limits for the covered areas because they’re incapable of doing basic engineering. (Look at how many mathematically derived ERP calculations you see in ULS. It’s sparse) Many can’t tell the difference between a radio and a toaster oven. So, many of them fudged a 40 km AOP so that “safe harbor” doesn’t red-flag the application. Then they scream that their client “NEEDS!” all that power (see above on my take on 110 W output and 40 km AOP for 1 square mile communities), and, by the way, they also need 20 MHz of separation because an unscrupulous dealer sold them a mobile duplexer when they really needed to buy a large pass-reject duplexer because of the usage density in their region. And, they marked that mobile duplexer up to the same cost as a “real” duplexer.

5. Warehousing of frequencies. I used to have a jurisdiction near me that hoarded frequencies and held them fallow. I was a friend of the system manager and he would use some of his budget to “buy” a channel for animal control, park rangers, you name it, he had a VHF pair just for them. And, after hours and on weekends it would be fallow. Meanwhile, nearby another agency needs a clear frequency pair for responder activities. If you need more than a certain number of pairs, you should have to trunk them (go back to my statement on trunking VHF 90.20 frequencies being an abomination of nature… unless there’s a carve-out for them). In most cases, a handful of trunked pairs can emulate many more discrete frequencies. Need a new channel? Have the system manager set up a new talkgroup and program radios for it.

6. Vacated frequencies. You turn up an 800 MHz system? Cancel your VHF licenses. No forever “backups.” Build backup functionality into the new system. So many systems are sitting on channels that are for some contingency that never happens, but they’re holding the licenses and renewing them with no intention of ever using them again. The same is true of VHF low band, where a talkgroup dumps out on a legacy low band frequency, killing it anywhere nearby by broadcasting talkgroup traffic on the legacy channel. Forever, or until the base station burns up and no one in the agency notices, because they gave up listening to that frequency 28 years ago.

7. Digital and atypical channel occupancy pattern usage need to be segregated from analog.

8. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR RUNNING ANYTHING IN CARRIER SQUELCH ANYMORE!!!

Fix all these things and there will be PLENTY of frequencies on VHF. There’s no need to take anything away from anyone if they didn't bollox them up from the get-go.
 

902

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some Arse-Hat frequency coordinator had put another fire department on without clearing it with us first. "Whoops, sorry….".
The FCC won't care about that. They fall back on all frequencies below 512 MHz being "shared use," basically sending the kids out and telling them to play nice.

There used to be a guy who was the principal of one of the frequency advisory committees. He was a good guy on a personal level, but his philosophy was to put agencies all over each other and let them work it out between themselves.

He's been gone for some years now, and, as a result, those frequencies aren't being coordinated on top of other agencies anymore (at least not any worse than any other).
 

mmckenna

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2. NO ONE needs 40 km AOP unless your jurisdiction is that big or bigger.

Yes! Frequency coordinators have become lazy.

4. ...Then they scream that their client “NEEDS!” all that power

Yep, our police department got sold 100 watt mobiles. They needed 50, but the chief (about 3 chiefs back) got sold higher power radios. After all, if 50 watts is good, 100 watts must be twice as good!
We turned them all down to around 75 watts and no one knew the difference. All the new radios purchased since then have been 50 watt radios. Sales people share in this blame.

6. Vacated frequencies. You turn up an 800 MHz system? Cancel your VHF licenses. No forever “backups.” Build backup functionality into the new system. So many systems are sitting on channels that are for some contingency that never happens, but they’re holding the licenses and renewing them with no intention of ever using them again.

Amen. I'd love to see someone start making these regional systems justify keeping all their original channels as 'backup'.
I'm spending more taxpayer dollars to make 800MHz pairs work in an environment that should be VHF.
 
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