Decryption?

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lep

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OMG, as my grandchildren say in their text messages. Prior to my retirement I attended ITU-R Study Group meetings in Geneve, Switzerland where approvals were granted to digital formats that were proposed as International Standards. EDACS was presented by Erricson at one of those meetings I attended some years ago. Being granted the imprimatur of an international standard doesn't mean a whole lot in the USA but is an important licensing and marketing step in many other countries. Yes is it a digital modulation scheme and is not natively encrypted although that is possible. No you cannot decrypt digital (or analogue) schemes without the Key. Even when not encrypted the formats are intellectual property of the patent holder and require the maker of a receiver to have a license, P-25 and EDACS licenses are available. ProVoice is not.
As far as I know, no one has purchased a license for D-STAR, IDAS or Motobro.
Can a computer/scanner/interested person build a home-brew system that will decrypt a modern on-the-air digital two-way radio system? Not likely. But go right ahead and waste time if you want!
 

TellThem

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decrypt

I have no professional back ground in this, merely a hobbyist. I have worked with video cards to decrypt my own network information, even over wireless. It seems possible to decrypt information through either parallel computation in a beowulf cluster, or simpler with an SLI format of video cards. (AMD video cards do better floating point mathematics)

I believe the radio frequency will need to be in a digital format using a HDTV digital tuner and configured to the computer with some form of software, and recorded. Once a sound is sampled it may be a shorter amount of time solve for X. Perhaps a matter of hours. Not months.

In summary I think video cards may be a solution, or a rapid brute force technique. If the computer power was there, shouldn't it seem reasonable? I've seen people use Amazon's cloud computers as a force to decrypt massively complicated formats. I'm only approaching things from the hardware perspective, since I have no understanding of digital radio software. However, if it can be done to wireless networking. I would suspect that it can be done to radio. Even digital radio is far older than some other technologies at our disposal right now.
 

rdale

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Decrypting complicated formats, and even encrypted wireless, is not the same as decrypting encrypted audio on the fly. Good try though!
 

zz0468

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Current P25 encryption methods have been hacked. But decryption will always be outside the capabilities of the hobby level scanner listener. As advanced efforts find and exploit flaws in current encryption methods, the methods used will advance as well. Legalities will prevent any hardware from being sold to hobbyists. The technical challenges will, as well. It's not going to appear in an add on box for your scanner, and it's not going to appear as an iPhone app.
 

johnls7424

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P25 systems are overrated. At least Phase I systems are. They are used everywhere and are reliable for the most part, but with so many other systems out there it has been proven that some are even more reliable. I am not talking about the ever so failing EDACS Standard/Provoice system I am talking about Opensky. These systems are even more impossible to hack and other PD's when figuring out interopp between other departments and services can link them all together without a huge budget. It will happen
 

rdale

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OpenSky is HIGHLY unreliable. Think you listened to a sales rep. Search the forum for the truth.
 

fredva

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P25 systems are overrated. At least Phase I systems are. They are used everywhere and are reliable for the most part, but with so many other systems out there it has been proven that some are even more reliable. I am not talking about the ever so failing EDACS Standard/Provoice system I am talking about Opensky. These systems are even more impossible to hack and other PD's when figuring out interopp between other departments and services can link them all together without a huge budget. It will happen

Uh, excuse me? Of the systems you mentioned, OpenSky is the one with the reputation of being unreliable. You need to read the news articles posted on this site about cities, counties, and states having problems with OpenSky.
 

kayn1n32008

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johnls7424 said:
P25 systems are overrated. At least Phase I systems are. They are used everywhere and are reliable for the most part, but with so many other systems out there it has been proven that some are even more reliable. I am not talking about the ever so failing EDACS Standard/Provoice system I am talking about Opensky. These systems are even more impossible to hack and other PD's when figuring out interopp between other departments and services can link them all together without a huge budget. It will happen

As soon as you allow a computer or PLC to start controlling a radio system you will always have the possibility of failure. My city uses EDACS with analog and Provoice talkgroups. It has over the years proven to be very reliable, granted there have been some issues (show me a trunk system that NEVER fails and I will sell you cheap ocean fron property in Arizona) but all in all it has served our city very well. The other major city in my province uses Motorola type 2 smart zone with both digital and analog talkgroups. It also has been reliable, although the coverage is starting to be questionable due to the cities huge growth over the last 10 years.

Opensky on the other hand does NOT have the proven track record of either of the Three other major trunking formats.
 

kayn1n32008

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MikeOxlong said:
P I am not talking about the ever so failing EDACS Standard/Provoice system I am talking about Opensky.

Wow. I think somebody's credibility on this site just plummeted.

What cred? I have never heard the words Opensky and Reliable in the same sentence when it comes to PS systems, EDACS, Smartzone, and P25 on the otherhand... More so with proper engineering, realistic budget, and proper, ongoing PM.
 

rogerx

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Ditto n5ims's 01-16-2013, 6:03 PM comment.

The truth is, nothing broadcasted on the police radios is confidential. Nothing really exciting goes on. The only time something does get interesting, are when murders or other high profile cases happen, in which the communications have always been side lined elsewhere.

Really, police need to get back to servering it's citizens instead of worrying about International terrorism, which is the responsibility of the Federal Government. And usually, once things get to the Federal Government, I don't have much issue with as it doesn't have much bearing on the enhancing local residences' safety, usually. And from my experience, the Federal Government is usually a little bit better in some areas at providing necessary information to it's residents versus the police supporting encryption.

If somebody does use these tools inappropriately, the police should be exercising the current laws on the books which are extremely adequate instead of instituting new ones or new features, which are over reaching and provide no additional useful features.

Laziness is what you are seeing here. Seems to be more of a fear of internal issues from being made public.

Currently, the only features encryption has likely provided, provoked other International Governments to decrypt and listen to APCO P25 communications while our citizens cannot or are unable. Encryption has also provided the local Governments the ability to walk into neighborhoods and take people away without providing any reason. The police news blotters contain only well filtered reports, of only what the police want you to hear. Amazing how fast people have forgotten about WW2 here.

Cleveland Ohio was one of the first police scanners to institute a non-monitorable system. Activity of people going missing, while nobody within the neighborhood has a clue police were within their neighborhood trying to question possible suspects. As such, people are not found with all possible avenues not even possibly explored in order to protect the innocent.

Don't get me wrong, encryption is a useful tool. But using a tool too much can be a bad thing. (ie. Using a police baton for every situation, such as prior to the 1970's and 1980's.) The Good Cops or experience Police Officers are well aware of this.

If you ask me, all 911 calls and responses should be unencrypted. Using encryption only once the call or crime scene is well secured preventing civilians within the area from being affected by the suspects, and only after the situation has esculated to a level where encryption is needed such as murders. Some agencies have already moved to this implementation for obvious reasons.
 
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johnls7424

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I really hate to butt in here, but police as well as even the average citizen ( YOU) all have the civic duty to worry about National terrorism. Now granted encryption for policing may have gone out of hand and that its becoming the " new norm". Even Fire Departments and EMS in some municipalites ( for example; Piscataway New Jersey) have gone fully encrypted. That may be overstepping the boundaries of what encryption was made to do.
 

rdale

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Encryption is not related to terrorism.
 

johnls7424

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That is true, but sensitive information discussed through interoperability between the departments via radio communications is and should be for the most part encrypted. Encryption didn't come forth in full effect for a lot of municipalities until cell-phone starting having live feed police scanner apps. After that lots of towns pretty much said " F-THAT" and everything will be secret. Plus the switch to digital communications in the first place made encryption simple because most digital radios in all brands offer encryption at little to no cost to do.
 

rdale

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Please check the sticky thread on encryption... Most of that is untrue.
 

tsalmrsystemtech

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hasnt encryption gone a little too far at this point. Eventually we are going to lock ourselves out of everything because of encryption. We had an incident in Santa Monica California a few weeks ago with a shooting where you had a nut bag running around a community college shooting people and all of the surrounding cities apoted out of encryption except for Santa Monica. Santa Monica went fully encrypted for their PD and they screwed themselves because surrounding agencies came in to help and could not communicate with Santa Monica because they have locked out their surrounding parnters.

What is it going to take at this point to where we have gone too far. Then encrypt the ham band. Everybody is just so paranoid that the scanner industry or media are bad people. All we need is a major disaster which is coming no matter what people think and then everybody will be encrypted and nobody will be able to help because encryption will lock everybody out of the rescue efforts. Then to manage all of these different agencies encryption keys and load these keys on all of these agencies is not the answer.

Public safety is going to have a rude awaking and some hard lessons they are going to have to learn when a big world wide disaster happens and nobody can talk to each other. This is what is going to have to happen to calm this encryption "BS" down and put it to a hault.
 

hkrharry

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Guys this horse has been beat enough.

BTW what has this to do with Kansas scanning?

Moderator, please close this thread and throw away the key.

HH
 

rogerx

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johnls7424: Nothing transmitted via radio is confidential information. You're information is entirely incorrect. I've seen people operate more efficiently using far less, and the current excuses for using encryption are just that - excuses. What this gets down to, getting free money for false services and being able to be more lazy with communications. These last two appear to be the only real reasons I can rationalize. Oh, and I should mention providing a power trip too for some within current power within the command structure, but I'm not privy of this as I'm retired and preoccupied. Also concerning terrorism, there are other more common sense ways of dealing with terrorism. Using encryption is only preventing information to the local public, while allowing it to be heard by other countries or nations.

There is one issue, Felons are usually or sometimes not allowed access to scanners, and the web made it extremely easy for them to use the technology. However, they should have used a reasonable use of force and shutdown the web broadcastings. Likely, those within politics could have been exploiting the web to endorse the move to encryption... but this is based on speculation and the fact we all know how dirty politics can be. ;-)

Quite simply, we are as screwed as Cleveland with encrypted traffic. Suspected criminal activity will be more apt to be easily pushed under the carpet, similar to the current unraveling of the latest kidnapping crime within Cleveland.

pepsima1: Those currently working within public safety utilizing encryption do not care. The more they can shove under a carpet, the more it exploits their supposed needed services. This can be referred to as the Broken WIndow syndrome within criminalogy, but with a popular twist. Too much of a bad thing is bad, as well as too much of a good thing is also bad. And not reporting the problem, problems will get worse.

I know for a fact, many within the civilian sector and retirees are likely very ticked-off with some departments' excessive usage of encrytion. And based on man power or resources available, I can definitely foresee the departments not making any move whatsoever to provide keys to anybody within the public. Anybody even thinking so, even those within the legislature, are very likely misguided.

Since we are apparently meer hard working civilians, all we can do is pray and hope. Another common measure utilized prior to World War 2 (ie. Thirty Years' War), was for people to simply exhile or relocate to apparently more sane regions. ;-) You may find, the Thirty Years War to be somewhat similar to this excessive usage of encryption as they both deal with beliefs and a life style. Also, similar to the Bible prior to the King James Bible, as the Bible wasn't easily readable (or could be considered encrypted) prior to King James.

Eh, imagine that. Within the US the honest or well intentioned people having to relocate based on beliefs.
 
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mikewazowski

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Guys this horse has been beat enough.

BTW what has this to do with Kansas scanning?

Moderator, please close this thread and throw away the key.

HH

Use the Report Post triangle in the upper left of a post to get a Moderator's attention.
 
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