Digital Mode Upgrades

[GROL]

They are also very common for radio options in the LMR industry.

I have not been in the commercial LMR industry in decades, but I can imagine they now do quite a bit of the same thing with all the new technologies in the industry.

 

[donc13]

Since Uniden has to pay a license fee for those upgrades, they (and thus the user) has a choice.

Uniden can include them in the base radio and up the price about $150. Whether the end user wants or needs them.

OR

The user can decide if they want those upgrades and if (to the user) the benefit is worth the cost.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Unless you know, positively, that an area you might travel to or through has a ProVoice system, and has no intention of upgrading anytime in the near future, I would not purchase the ProVoice upgrade.

Only 40 Provoice systems (and dwindling) known in the USA & Canada

 

[hiegtx]

Only 40 Provoice systems (and dwindling) known in the USA & Canada

And a number of those, including two in Texas, are already on a path to transition to a different system type.

 

[GROL]

Since Uniden has to pay a license fee for those upgrades, they (and thus the user) has a choice.

Uniden can include them in the base radio and up the price about $150. Whether the end user wants or needs them.

OR

The user can decide if they want those upgrades and if (to the user) the benefit is worth the cost.

Does anyone know what the license fees cost Uniden, otherwise we are talking about an assumption they are passing along the costs, or they are charging extra for them.

 

[GROL]

And a number of those, including two in Texas, are already on a path to transition to a different system type.

Thanks, Good to know Provoice is on the way out.

I am interested in DMR and NXDN, but I don't encounter much that I must listen to to get Public safety where I am, but I would like to add them for systems I encounter traveling and some commercial systems coming online near me. I just can't justify the expense right now and I was wondering if Uniden really has the best price point for them. I know they have to pay a license fee, but are we paying a lot for them, or a best price that is a good deal for Uniden and consumers.

 

[GROL]

Not sure if this is the best analogy, but an example comes to mind. The INVOICE price that car dealers show you, or is advertised for a new car, is NOT what they pay for the car on an invoice they get from the manufacturer. So when they are saying they are selling below invoice, that is a bit of a lie. They will not show you the actual invoice price, but I have negotiated new car purchases and paid far less than what they said was the invoice price. As consumers, we are seldom privy to what the vendor actually pays for a product they sell.

I am only wondering if Uniden has the best price point on the upgrades that actually gives them the best return. I really think they are over priced, but I have to admit I can't actually know for sure. Volume compensates for lower prices. 100 upgrades at $50 gives less profit than 500 upgrades at $40, unless they are charging what the license actually costs, but that is highly unlikely. Business cannot exist without a profit margin.

 

[fxdscon]

Does anyone know what the license fees cost Uniden, otherwise we are talking about an assumption they are passing along the costs, or they are charging extra for them.

-

This was from a post by UPMan when ProVoice upgrades were first offered, and the consumer cost is the same now as it was then:

The ProVoice capability will be a $50 upgrade, which almost covers our development and licensing costs.

 

[GROL]

-

This was from a post by UPMan when ProVoice upgrades were first offered, and the consumer cost is the same now as it was then:

With all sincere respect to Paul, I am not questioning his post. Development cost is eventually recovered through early sales. These digital modes have been available a good while now. Interesting that I just realized I bought an Alinco DJ-MD5TGP DMR transceiver about 2 years ago for $129 which is the GPS version. At the time the non-GPS version was $20 less. Given the Uniden Upgrade is $60 for DMR, I doubt the price of the Alinco radio has $60 in DMR licensing and development fees.

 

[hiegtx]

With all sincere respect to Paul, I am not questioning his post. Development cost is eventually recovered through early sales. These digital modes have been available a good while now. Interesting that I just realized I bought an Alinco DJ-MD5TGP DMR transceiver about 2 years ago for $129 which is the GPS version. At the time the non-GPS version was $20 less. Given the Uniden Upgrade is $60 for DMR, I doubt the price of the Alinco radio has $60 in DMR licensing and development fees.

The cost of your Alinco model might not include any DMR licensing costs, but neither can it track a DMR trunked system. Receive a DMR channel conventionally, yes, but track a trunked system? The answer is no.

Similarly, the Whistler database scanners can receive DMR transmissions, but not trunk track them If your system of insterest is lightly loaded, with only a handful if users & not much in the way of actual radio traffic, that may meet your needs. But for much busier systems, with larger number of users & a much higher level of radio traffic, you're better off with a unit that can actually trunk track the system. The right to use the 'tracking' intellectual property is why Uniden is paying the licensing fee, whatever cost that may be. As already noted above by others, that fee is per unit. So there is a cost for each scanner so upgraded, which is a better option than charging everyone extra for a mode (DMR or NXDN) that they'd never use.

So, since you wish to evade the DMR and/or NXDN upgrade costs, just use your Alinco radio in case you run across DMR. If you purchase one of the Whistler TRX series scanners, you can avoid upgrade fees for both DMR & NXDN reception. Just don't expect to be able to properly track the system, or hold on a specific talkgroup.

 

[fxdscon]

Development cost is eventually recovered through early sales.

-
R&D costs are usually amortized over a period of time by manufacturers. Often times that amortization period is based on the projected life cycle of a particular model. We don't know how Uniden calculates that, so "through early sales" can only be stated as a guess.

These digital modes have been available a good while now.

-
Yes, they have... but Uniden must pay license fees/royalties for the technology on a continuing basis each and every time a scanner owner purchases an upgrade for each scanner.

Given the Uniden Upgrade is $60 for DMR, I doubt the price of the Alinco radio has $60 in DMR licensing and development fees.

-
I'm sure the Alinco DJ-MD5TGP doesn't have $60 in DMR licensing and development fees built into that price.... and there is a good reason for that.

The Uniden upgrade fees are primarily for the DMR trunk tracking abilities of those upgradable scanners. The Alinco does not have the technology on board to decode the trunking information from the DMR control channels that would allow it to properly and accurately scan and trunk track talkgroups on a trunked system. The Alinco can only scan the voice channels on a DMR trunked system.

It's the same reason that the Whistler scanners don't charge for NXDN or DMR upgrades... they can't properly trunk track DMR or NXDN trunked systems either.

For non-trunked DMR systems or DMR trunking systems with small numbers of talk groups or those that don't see a large volume of traffic, your Alinco may work satisfactorly, but in large trunking systems, the Unidens will make a world of difference because of the licensed technology.

That's what the Uniden upgrade fees provide for the user... trunk tracking technology for decoding and using the commands from the control channels.

There are many, many posts about those very important differences.

 

[donc13]

Does anyone know what the license fees cost Uniden, otherwise we are talking about an assumption they are passing along the costs, or they are charging extra for them.

Doesn't matter. Besides any license fee, there is the cost for the website or system used to generate the key itself. The key is unique to each individual radio. And you know what, Uniden is actually allowed to make a profit. They aren't in business to give anything away. They are in business to make a profit.

Just like every individual who has a job where they make more money at their job than it costs them to get back and forth to their job. You know anyone who has a job where it costs them more to just get to and from the job than they make?

 

[scanfreqer]

You only have to buy it once. You probably bought a new antenna to improve performance,well the upgrade keys are the same. Either spend the money of just forget about it.

 

[GROL]

They all have to use the same Vocoder and logic to decode and process the

You only have to buy it once. You probably bought a new antenna to improve performance,well the upgrade keys are the same. Either spend the money of just forget about it.

Would be nice if it were just once for my BCD436HP, BCD996P2 and BCD325P2. The Alinco DJ-MD5 still must use the Vocoder which have license fees. It uses DVSI's AMBE+2® vocoder. It just does not operate Tier III. It is a Part 90 transceiver designed for Tier II systems. Trunktracking is not part of the Vocoder function. The scanners already have the truntracking function which does not require a license.

 

[donc13]

They all have to use the same Vocoder and logic to decode and process the

Would be nice if it were just once for my BCD436HP, BCD996P2 and BCD325P2. The Alinco DJ-MD5 still must use the Vocoder which have license fees. It uses DVSI's AMBE+2® vocoder. It just does not operate Tier III. It is a Part 90 transceiver designed for Tier II systems. Trunktracking is not part of the Vocoder function. The scanners already have the truntracking function which does not require a license.

Wouldn't it be nice if you had many computers but only bought 1 set of software and could use it at the same time on all your computers?

Plain and simple, you don't like the price of the upgrade... don't buy it.

See... easy peasy

 

[GROL]

It is apparently overpriced is my point. My original posit has been lost in the discussion. Couldn't Uniden sell more upgrades at a lower price? I had suggested maybe if they could try a $40 price point they would sell more upgrades, but to some that sounded like free for some reason. Volume compensates for lower prices. Consumers set the price of any product. Priced too high it doesn't sell. If the demand is high enough business can sell at a price that Consumers will accept and make the profit they need. Cell phones are so way overpriced because of the extremely high demand. I do get to pay for one software license and use it on 5 computers. Office 365 for $10 per month. This is a very attractive pricing model for business as well. It is replacing the old licensing model with most business Consumers. I get all the latest versions without having to buy another Office suite license for $350 or more for a single use. I also get email and cloud storage. Adobe does this as well for their software products. When you buy software you are buying a license to use it. You still do not own it. You just possess a copy of it for use.

 

[AJAT]

It is apparently overpriced is my point. My original posit has been lost in the discussion. Couldn't Uniden sell more upgrades at a lower price? I had suggested maybe if they could try a $40 price point they would sell more upgrades, but to some that sounded like free for some reason. Volume compensates for lower prices. Consumers set the price of any product. Priced too high it doesn't sell. If the demand is high enough business can sell at a price that Consumers will accept and make the profit they need. Cell phones are so way overpriced because of the extremely high demand. I do get to pay for one software license and use it on 5 computers. Office 365 for $10 per month. This is a very attractive pricing model for business as well. It is replacing the old licensing model with most business Consumers. I get all the latest versions without having to buy another Office suite license for $350 or more for a single use. I also get email and cloud storage. Adobe does this as well for their software products. When you buy software you are buying a license to use it. You still do not own it. You just possess a copy of it for use.

Comparing digital upgrades to Microsoft products is not a good comparison. Like you stated about supply and demand. A much higher demand is for Microsoft products. Looking at the overall picture there is a very small demand for digital upgrades or scanners in general. Why is $40.00 I good price? Why not $20.00? At $20.00 more people will buy it. I am sure Uniden did market research on how many people would buy the upgrades and set the price accordingly. Unless you are able to see Unidens books there is no way to determine what is a fair price for Uniden to sell the upgrades at.
The only way for you to determine what is a fair for you, is to decide if the price is worth the value to you. I personally think 600.00 for an SDS scanner is too expensive, although I would love to have one the value to me at this time is not worth it. If my local systems would go to simulcast and would re-evaluate the value of still listening to those systems vs the 600.00, and I might change my mind.

 

[donc13]

It is apparently overpriced is my point. My original posit has been lost in the discussion. Couldn't Uniden sell more upgrades at a lower price? I had suggested maybe if they could try a $40 price point they would sell more upgrades, but to some that sounded like free for some reason. Volume compensates for lower prices. Consumers set the price of any product. Priced too high it doesn't sell. If the demand is high enough business can sell at a price that Consumers will accept and make the profit they need. Cell phones are so way overpriced because of the extremely high demand. I do get to pay for one software license and use it on 5 computers. Office 365 for $10 per month. This is a very attractive pricing model for business as well. It is replacing the old licensing model with most business Consumers. I get all the latest versions without having to buy another Office suite license for $350 or more for a single use. I also get email and cloud storage. Adobe does this as well for their software products. When you buy software you are buying a license to use it. You still do not own it. You just possess a copy of it for use.

My last post on this. (Yea!)

Neither of us know what Uniden pays for the license or the cost of the website to accept payments and issue keys. So no idea what it costs Uniden which is obviously part of their pricing. I know other vendors (such as Bearcat Warehouse) sells them at a higher price, but they 'install' the key for you (a manual process).

Office 365 family, which is not the full Office Suite, but yes, not for use in corporate setting and 2 to 6 personal computers. $10/mo or $100/year.

Apples and Oranges

Uniden is a ONE time cost per scanner. The key is specific to a single, unique ESN and valid for the usable life of that scanner.

So... end of discussion for me.

 

[marcotor]

Why do consumers feel they have a right to know every R&D, employee compensation, et. al of a company? If you don't want to pay the price they ask, then vote with your wallet, and don't. Constantly speculating about one thing or another makes no significant contribution, and just makes those complaining appear to be cheap whiners. If one cannot afford the prices the hobby demands today, perhaps it is time to find another hobby. Endless whining and speculation is not going to lower the cost.

 

[GROL]

Comparing digital upgrades to Microsoft products is not a good comparison. Like you stated about supply and demand. A much higher demand is for Microsoft products. Looking at the overall picture there is a very small demand for digital upgrades or scanners in general. Why is $40.00 I good price? Why not $20.00? At $20.00 more people will buy it. I am sure Uniden did market research on how many people would buy the upgrades and set the price accordingly. Unless you are able to see Unidens books there is no way to determine what is a fair price for Uniden to sell the upgrades at.
The only way for you to determine what is a fair for you, is to decide if the price is worth the value to you. I personally think 600.00 for an SDS scanner is too expensive, although I would love to have one the value to me at this time is not worth it. If my local systems would go to simulcast and would re-evaluate the value of still listening to those systems vs the 600.00, and I might change my mind.

Donc13 made the analogy of upgrades to computer licenses. Not I. I pointed out that you can install on multiple computers with one license and it is also a better deal. I also know it costs more for business but getting into that cost was more than needed in the discussion. Where I am employed as Sysadmin we have 1500 users we are moving to Office 365. I am familiar with the expense but we are talking about individual consumers. I merely mentioned it was better for business as well and did not state it was the same cost as for personal use. Why do you defend a $60 price. How do you know it is the best price point to sell more upgrades. Maybe $40 could be better. Scanners go on sale. Maybe upgrades could go on sale to boost the sale of upgrades. But if Uniden Sales reads these posts they will likely be convinced they have plenty of defenders of the $60 fee for DMR and probably not consider a sale.