DSDPlus DSD+ Tier III improvement needed

[DaveNF2G]

DSDPlus can only report accurate system information for TIII NonStandard systems if the supporting files contain data on that system already. When encountering a new system or site that is previously undocumented, the only option for NonStandard viewing is to use Force Non Standard in the Control menu. That setting gets reversed the next time the system sends a beacon that DSDPlus reinterprets as Standard. This is usually a matter of seconds. The menu selection needs to be sticky and override OTA data.

 

[cg]

Odd that for me, setting up a new Win 11 computer using the same entries for the Tier III systems results in the switch being automatic, although on the computer that was a problem, making the change manually had it stay there.
I do not want to delete the bin file and allow the recreation of same as that may introduce the inability to have the DSDPlus console window automatically minimize as some folks have run into. You could, however, save a copy, delete the bin file and try allowing it to create the new one.

 

[mtindor]

DSDPlus can only report accurate system information for TIII NonStandard systems if the supporting files contain data on that system already. When encountering a new system or site that is previously undocumented, the only option for NonStandard viewing is to use Force Non Standard in the Control menu. That setting gets reversed the next time the system sends a beacon that DSDPlus reinterprets as Standard. This is usually a matter of seconds. The menu selection needs to be sticky and override OTA data.

IF you have a decent signal, DSDPlus (recent versions) are going to report either TIIIStd (for Tait and other Tier III Standard systems) and is going to report TIIInonStd for Motorola CAPMAX and Selex/Leonardo (Onevoice) systems.

If your DSDPlus isn't automatically reporting TIIInonStd out of the box for a Onevoice site, then you've got something wrong.

NOTE: DSDPlus will often initially report a TIIInonStd system as TIIIStd until it is able to see enough information on the control channel to determine it is a TIIInonStd system. But, assuming a signal of decent strength without interference, that determination usually takes place within seconds or less.

I can take a pristine 5.09 copy with no files edited, tune to a Moto CapMax control channel, and it pretty much immediately shows TIIInonStd.

 

[mwjones]

NOTE: DSDPlus will often initially report a TIIInonStd system as TIIIStd until it is able to see enough information on the control channel to determine it is a TIIInonStd system. But, assuming a signal of decent strength without interference, that determination usually takes place within seconds or less.

I concur with @mtindor on this. I was on a road trip with my mobile rig recently, and any time I'm dealing with a Capacity Max system (which I've seen a lot of), I see a Standard Network come in, and within a second or two see the Non-Standard Network come in:

2024/11/26  12:20:20  Freq=451.325000  Current network:  S2
2024/11/26  12:20:20  Freq=451.325000  Current site:  S2-1.2
2024/11/26  12:20:21  Freq=451.325000  Current network:  S1
2024/11/26  12:20:21  Freq=451.325000  Current site:  S1-1
2024/11/26  12:20:21  Freq=451.325000  DCC=0  RAS  No data for current site found in DSDPlus.frequencies file

Of course, in the case above, I'm sitting just outside a known location for this system, and with 0.0 gain was still pretty high on the spectrum analyzer of FMP24, so it was near perfect conditions - but even at fringe coverage, 49.6 gain and a high noise floor, I still get the switchover pretty quick.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I have left DSDPlus running on this site's (OneVoice MAX, Austerlitz, NY) control channel for hours and it never reports TIIINonStd without a preloaded configuration.

 

[mtindor]

I have left DSDPlus running on this site's (OneVoice MAX, Austerlitz, NY) control channel for hours and it never reports TIIINonStd without a preloaded configuration.

So you are saying you have nothing related to that system in .networks, .sites, .frequencies and you don't have that "forced" option enabled, but yet it isn't recognizing TIIINonStd? Odd. Works for the rest of us or so others have said. If you have stuff in your dsdplus.* files related to the system in question, it's going to force the system to whatever you have specified in the files.

 

[merlin]

I'm still on the las version of DSD+ fastlane, depending on the system I connect to, it will report non standard or standard TIII.
I put a little work into making sure my netwoks, sites, and frequency files have all the needed information.
Seems to work just fine for me, but yea, there is room for improvements.

 

[merlin]

I have left DSDPlus running on this site's (OneVoice MAX, Austerlitz, NY) control channel for hours and it never reports TIIINonStd without a preloaded configuration.

So what is your FMP bat file like ? That should preload all your configurations when it starts.

 

[RaleighGuy]

So what is your FMP bat file like ? That should preload all your configurations when it starts.

The BAT file has nothing to do with the contents of the stuff in your dsdplus.* files, which is what will determine the TIII labels.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I think some folks are missing the point here.

For a known system, the DSDPlus configuration files should have the correct protocol and if so, then DSDPlus will report the correct info.

For a new system, there won't be any data in the configuration files and DSDPlus will report what it thinks the system is telling it about the protocol. The Force Non Std menu selection only overrides this for a few seconds, until the system announces itself again. The OneVoice MAX system tells DSDPlus that it is TIIIStd, but it is really Non Standard, or so we are being told by the experts.

 

[mtindor]

I think some folks are missing the point here.

For a known system, the DSDPlus configuration files should have the correct protocol and if so, then DSDPlus will report the correct info.

For a new system, there won't be any data in the configuration files and DSDPlus will report what it thinks the system is telling it about the protocol. The Force Non Std menu selection only overrides this for a few seconds, until the system announces itself again. The OneVoice MAX system tells DSDPlus that it is TIIIStd, but it is really Non Standard, or so we are being told by the experts.

For DMR, only DSDPlus.groups and DSDPlus.radios get populated. DSDplus.Networks, DSDPlus.sites and DSDPlus.frequencies must be manually edited to add the system with the appropriate TIIInonStd beginning column. You're right that the .groups and .radios files might not reflect the proper first column, but they will if you populate .networks, .sites, and .frequencies they way they are supposed to be populated. Of course if you have existing content in .groups and .radios that you know should be TIIInonStd but show TIIIstd, you are going to have to do search/replaces on them. And that likely includes Network and System Ids as well, since those will change depending on whether the system is TIIIStd or TIIInonStd.

You just have to do some work.

 

[DaveNF2G]

For DMR, only DSDPlus.groups and DSDPlus.radios get populated. DSDplus.Networks, DSDPlus.sites and DSDPlus.frequencies must be manually edited to add the system with the appropriate TIIInonStd beginning column. You're right that the .groups and .radios files might not reflect the proper first column, but they will if you populate .networks, .sites, and .frequencies they way they are supposed to be populated. Of course if you have existing content in .groups and .radios that you know should be TIIInonStd but show TIIIstd, you are going to have to do search/replaces on them. And that likely includes Network and System Ids as well, since those will change depending on whether the system is TIIIStd or TIIInonStd.

You just have to do some work.

[sigh] But how do I determine the system type when first detected?

 

[mtindor]

[sigh] But how do I determine the system type when first detected?

Like I said, assuming you aren't "forcing" anything and you do NOT have anything in your dsdplus.* files that you manually added for that network / site / frequencies, then if you just sit on the CC it should indicate whether it is TIII Standard or TIII Nonstandard. You need to make sure and have a good signal. It should autodetermine that, but may take some seconds to determine it. It'll assume TIII Standard by default until it has seen enough info from the CC to give it information to allow it to figure out of it's non-Standard. Works for me, but I only have Moto CapMax Nonstandard systems around me.

It may be that because Selex/Leonardo is unique in that it's not sending a MFID (I think I was told it's sending a 0 for MFID), DSDPlus doesn't know the manufacturer and probably doesn't automatically determine it to be TIII Nonstandard.

So you are just going to have to go into your DSDPlus.networks / sites / frequencies files and manually add them all as TIIInonStd (which you would have to do regardless) and, after you have done that, you'll need to go into your DSDPlus.groups and DSDPlus.radios files and do search/replace to replace information for the Onevoice sites with TIIInonSTd instead of TIIIStd.

If you go to the Downloads section for Onevoice in the DB, there are already working copies of DSDPlus.sites, DSDPlus.frequencies and DSDPlus.talkgroups. You'll just need to add the following to DSDPlus.networks :

TIIInonStd, H3, "Onevoice"

 

[mwjones]

[sigh] But how do I determine the system type when first detected?

I thought I had a screenshot of it, but I didn't (and my setup right now won't pick up a Tier 3 system) - I borrowed a screen shot from another user that might help:

You'll see in the Event history, the switch from network L7 and site L7-1.7 to network L6 site L6-6, which will only happen when it's a non-Standard system.

In the status bar at the bottom, you'll see the System Type is "TIIInonStd" that mode switching is [Auto] and the detected system type is (MOT) - which in this case is a Motorola Capacity Max system.

Once the system is defined in your .frequencies file, the mode switching indicator will go away, and it will read "TIIInonStd (MOT)"

If it was a Standard system, the status bar would show "TIIIStd" and I've seen HYT (Hytera) and Tait both show up, along with no system type.

 

[mtindor]

I thought I had a screenshot of it, but I didn't (and my setup right now won't pick up a Tier 3 system) - I borrowed a screen shot from another user that might help:

You'll see in the Event history, the switch from network L7 and site L7-1.7 to network L6 site L6-6, which will only happen when it's a non-Standard system.

In the status bar at the bottom, you'll see the System Type is "TIIInonStd" that mode switching is [Auto] and the detected system type is (MOT) - which in this case is a Motorola Capacity Max system.

Once the system is defined in your .frequencies file, the mode switching indicator will go away, and it will read "TIIInonStd (MOT)"

If it was a Standard system, the status bar would show "TIIIStd" and I've seen HYT (Hytera) and Tait both show up, along with no system type.

Keep in mind that the system being monitored by Dave is Onevoice, which is Selex/Leonardo stuff. It isn't Motorola CAPMAX, so it will never identify as (MOT). And it may not identify at all since it's not sending a MFID. I really can't remember how the latest versions handle Selex/Leonardo when using a pristine setup of the latest DSDPlus versions (no edited DSDPlus.* files).''

 

[mwjones]

Keep in mind that the system being monitored by Dave is Onevoice, which is Selex/Leonardo stuff. It isn't Motorola CAPMAX, so it will never identify as (MOT). And it may not identify at all since it's not sending a MFID. I really can't remember how the latest versions handle Selex/Leonardo when using a pristine setup of the latest DSDPlus versions (no edited DSDPlus.* files).''

Yep, a classic case of "Your Mileage May Vary" - Where I'm at (Texas) and primarily travel (Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri) I don't see much outside those 3 (Motorola, Hytera, Tait), but have seen some Standard systems with no OTA MFID.

 

[pro92b]

My usage of DSD+ is unusual in that I only collect data from control channels from a discriminator tapped scanner. The scanner cannot send frequency information to DSD+ so it does not know the channel number until there is a voice transmission. With this setup when I tune to OneVoice MAX DSD+ starts with TIIIStd and stays there until I force it to TIIInonStd. Once I do that it sticks and no further intervention is needed unless the signal fades out or is overcome by interference. The Selex control channel evidently does not send data that allows the determination of TIIInonStd in the absence of stored file data on one's DSD+ files (system, sites, frequency). My files are correct but the scanner cannot send the control channel frequency to DSD+. So DSD+ has only off the air data to go on. With Selex that is not enough to determine it is TIIInonStd.

 

[DaveNF2G]

So basically, the answer to my question is either "just guess" or "trial and error" depending on the brand of hardware in use, which the average hobbyist is not going to know.

 

[mtindor]

So basically, the answer to my question is either "just guess" or "trial and error" depending on the brand of hardware in use, which the average hobbyist is not going to know.

Sure, I guess. Maybe. I think somebody on here told me that there is another Selex/Leonardo system known to be active in the NE. I can't remember which one. Other than that, if it's sending a valid MFID it gets detected. And the vast majority are either Motorola CAPMAX (TIIINonStd) or Tait, Hytera, etc (TIIIStd) and are identified as such.

You already know what Onevoice is supposed to be set up as -- TIIINonStd. You already can download the .networks, .sites and .frequencies files that will work. At most you would have to go into your DSDPlus.groups and DSDPlus.radios files and change any known Onevoice entries to TIIInonStd if they aren't already listed as such, and will have to change the Network/Site IDs in those files as well. So just go do it.

Just about any other TIII you are going to find is going to be identified properly if you've got a good signal on it.

I highly doubt that you are going to get any logic in DSDPlus changed to make you happy at this point, since the logic for determining the T3 systems has already been changed around in DSDPlus more than once. Just move on with life and what you already know to be factual information for Onevoice.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Sure, I guess. Maybe. I think somebody on here told me that there is another Selex/Leonardo system known to be active in the NE. I can't remember which one. Other than that, if it's sending a valid MFID it gets detected. And the vast majority are either Motorola CAPMAX (TIIINonStd) or Tait, Hytera, etc (TIIIStd) and are identified as such.

You already know what Onevoice is supposed to be set up as -- TIIINonStd. You already can download the .networks, .sites and .frequencies files that will work. At most you would have to go into your DSDPlus.groups and DSDPlus.radios files and change any known Onevoice entries to TIIInonStd if they aren't already listed as such, and will have to change the Network/Site IDs in those files as well. So just go do it.

Just about any other TIII you are going to find is going to be identified properly if you've got a good signal on it.

I highly doubt that you are going to get any logic in DSDPlus changed to make you happy at this point, since the logic for determining the T3 systems has already been changed around in DSDPlus more than once. Just move on with life and what you already know to be factual information for Onevoice.

OneVoice doesn't concern me as it is already known and verified. I am a radio explorer, so unknowns concern me. My question about dealing with them has been answered adequately.