EDACS Provoice

[KG5HHS]

I will start out by saying I don't know much about EDACS or trunking systems. My question is, is it "illegal" to purchase a radio and program it be able to scan provoice talk groups?
I know in the P25 conventional world you can listen as long as you have the correct NAC but listening to an Encrypted channel is a big no no.
I live in an area that uses an 800MHz EDACS digital and provoice system. I can pick up the system with my uniden bcd396xt scanner. The FD is all digital except the EMS to Hospital communications. However the PD is all Provoice except the main dispatch talkgroup.
Before anyone even decides to go there, yes I understand the importance of "secure" channels. I'm not wanting to listen in on SWAT or NARC events, or get anyone's personal information from an NCIC records check. I'm an EMT and simply want to listen to the EMS radio report to the hospital and listen to the lake Division talkgroup.

 

[riveter]

ProVoice is not, by default, encrypted. It's simply a digital waveform like P25 CAI. EDACS uses ProVoice on some systems like Motorola uses P25 CAI on the old Type II systems- not required, but optional if they want it digital.

The one big difference there is that the vocoder for ProVoice isn't public, so it would take painstaking careful decoding and tweaking to program into a scanner- ProVoice isn't used enough for scanner manufacturers to bother.

TLDR: Monitoring ProVoice with an appropriate radio (P7100, etc) is absolutely not against the law. Just like scanning with an XTS or APX on a Moto system using P25 CAI.

HOWEVER, ProVoice, like P25, CAN be encrypted. If you do not have the correct keyfill in you radio, you will not be able to monitor that traffic (not a "should", the radio simply won't do it). I don't know if Harris radios display a KEYFAIL message when that happens and mute the audio like Moto radios do, but basically it won't happen whether you want it to or not. Attempting to jerry-rig the right keyfill into the radio or decrypt transmissions without authorization WOULD be illegal. However, that's just for encrypted ProVoice, not standard.

Hope that helps.



EDIT: It looks like you're making a distinction between 'digital' and 'provoice' on that system... ProVoice IS digital, just like P25- it's the digital waveform used on EDACS. If you actually mean by that distinction that what you refer to as 'provoice' is in fact encrypted digital, then check my last paragraph above.

Actually, I just looked that system up on here (I guess you mean San Angelo Public Safety). Wherever you see "A" for the mode, that's not digital, that's analog FM. Wherever you see "M" or "D", those talkgroups may use ProVoice, either standard or encrypted. Wherever you see "E", that's encrypted ProVoice only, and even a proper subscriber radio authorized for the system will not be able to hear the encrypted traffic without the correct encryption keyfill.

 

[fasteddy64]

Isn't San Angelo in the process of migrating from EDACS to P25 trunking right now?
I was under the impression they were.

 

[ElroyJetson]

It is reasonable to assume that EVERY current user of EDACS is at least preparing to migrate to a new system type, whether it's P25 Phase 1, P25 Phase 2, or OpenScam2.

Harris has stated that support for EDACS in any form will end in December 2017.

Beyond that point, any remaining EDACS systems (and I suspect there will be a few) will be maintained only by those independent owner/operators who take on all system maintenance tasks themselves, without any vendor support available to them. There are some non-public-safety EDACS systems and my bet is that they will be the only ones still standing in 2018, if even THEY are. Florida Power and Light runs a 900 MHz EDACS system, and I know that Toyota operates at least one UHF EDACS system as well, in one or more of their auto factories.

 

[rfradioconsult]

Not to mention the numerous ship board EDACS systems installed on U S Navy ships.

 

[riveter]

Not to mention the numerous ship board EDACS systems installed on U S Navy ships.

Cut off one system, two more shall grow...


Sorry, I really couldn't resist that gem.

 

[Syncopations]

ProVoice is just a flavor of digital. You can monitor it with the proper radio and programming. As a matter of fact, if you listen to the feed I'm broadcasting, that's a ProVoice system.

 

[Forts]

HOWEVER, ProVoice, like P25, CAN be encrypted. If you do not have the correct keyfill in you radio, you will not be able to monitor that traffic (not a "should", the radio simply won't do it). I don't know if Harris radios display a KEYFAIL message when that happens and mute the audio like Moto radios do, but basically it won't happen whether you want it to or not.

Typically on an encrypted transmission (without the proper key in the radio) the key icon will show up and the audio will be muted. Occasionally some encrytped gobbeldy gook will come thru however.

 

[madrabbitt]

used-radios.com has a few 800 portables with the provoice option for decent pricing.

i may grab one for myself shortly.

 

[coolderb]

I will start out by saying I don't know much about EDACS or trunking systems. My question is, is it "illegal" to purchase a radio and program it be able to scan provoice talk groups?
I know in the P25 conventional world you can listen as long as you have the correct NAC but listening to an Encrypted channel is a big no no.
I live in an area that uses an 800MHz EDACS digital and provoice system. I can pick up the system with my uniden bcd396xt scanner. The FD is all digital except the EMS to Hospital communications. However the PD is all Provoice except the main dispatch talkgroup.
Before anyone even decides to go there, yes I understand the importance of "secure" channels. I'm not wanting to listen in on SWAT or NARC events, or get anyone's personal information from an NCIC records check. I'm an EMT and simply want to listen to the EMS radio report to the hospital and listen to the lake Division talkgroup.

You could grab a Pro-668 from Ebay fairly inexpensively. They have a built-in discriminator output as well as the ability to follow Provoice talk-groups. It can be fed into a sound card on a PC and decoded using the free DSD+ program: DSDPlus - The RadioReference Wiki

 

[johnls7424]

You can most certainly monitor ProVoice with either DSD or a ProVoice capable radio. Encrypted transmissions will have some garbled sound bits as the user transmits. Just like others have said above though ProVoice is reaching its EOL in 2017. Most system are either in the process of migrating or have. For good reason too. ProVoice isn't a bad form of digital, but it is hard on the ears to listen too. It really depends on the user's radio. Older radios have older vocoders and it sounds almost as bad as VSELP. Newer XG series harris radios sound more like Phase 2 P25, but almost always have a loud CHURP to them when the mic is keyed. At least where I live and a talkgroup I actively monitor that's how it sounds.

Reason why scanners never decoded the digital format of EDACS is because M/A Com and now Harris wouldn't release the proprietary rights for monitoring by scanner companies. Now its an aging system all together ( EDACS) scanner companies are more inclined to try to get rights to monitor DMR or NEXEDGE or other newer digital formats.

Older ProVoice radios are fairly cheap ( given good condition). Harder part is finding someone who will program it to receive only mode and program talkgroups into them. Most will do conventional only, but that wouldn't help you if you need to monitor the talkgroup end of it.