Encryption on SAFE-T?

[Srobo]

I am monitering the same site as DiGiTaLD and I get the same thing. This all started with the "Dig" a few weeks ago. The last time I heard audio on the ISP-CZ-DES TG they were at the Greenwood PD range and were talking to each other as they were waiting to get inside. During those conversations the CT column showed "-" now Unitrunker displays the "Dig" and I get no audio on my GRE500. There is no other TG that is showing "Dig" in the CT column on the Greenwood or Franklin Safe-T sites. I have no idea why it is now doing this but I agree with DiGiTaLD because I see it on a daily dasis.

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Once agian from the Instructions from UniTrunker

What it can't
The program does not monitor P25 conventional channels. It does not provide the ability to decode digital voice transmissions into audio. You will need a digital P25 (or VSELP or ProVoice or whatever) capable receiver for this. There is no support for LTR, Passport or Multinet at this time. The program does not monitor encrypted control channels. It you wish to capture NAC codes found on P25 conventional channels - look for a program called the "kNACk".

There is a variation of MPT1327 found on 220 Mhz in North America that uses ACSSB modulation inside a 5khz channel. The FFSK parameters also differ from the standard narrow-FM MPT1327 mode. UniTrunker does not support this format.

Here's a summary of the kind of information that can be displayed.

Basic system information - system type, system id, talkgroups, and radio ids.
Basic site information - site or cell number, and list of channels.
Site call activity - who's talking, on what channel, and to whom.
Neighboring Site information - list adjacent cell or sites with control channels.
User roaming - what radios are registed to a particular site.
User affiliation - what talkgroup a user has requested.
Patches - a dispatcher initiated action that joins two or more talkgroups together.
The program also allows a user to define a custom band plan or fleet map.

And once again, I don't care what the instructions say. You refuse to listen to anybody else. I'm telling you what the program is actually doing when watching a site. Look around on here a little bit and you'll see that other people in other areas have seen the exact same thing on the same type of system.

I would like for you to explain to me why "Dig" is not showing up on all P25 CAI digital voice talkgroups. As you can see below, the call that appears in UT is on a talkgroup that uses P25 CAI digital voice - check the database! However, in the CT column, there is only a "-". The only time I see "Dig" appear over there is when encryption is in use. At those times, the scanner refuses to track the traffic. The only way I can even hear what is going on is by programming the voice channel Unitrunker shows the traffic on into a channel in conventional mode, and then I hear scrambled P25. How much clearer do I have to be as to what is occurring here?

 

[SCPD]

Check your scanner there is somthing wrong the "-" in the CT colimm has nothing to do with it I have that right now on MECA SYS 2 showing up on every freq when it is active and I hear the traffic just fine as well as Boone County Safe T simo right now on another computer and scanner.

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Check your scanner there is somthing wrong the "-" in the CT colimm has nothing to do with it I have that right now on MECA SYS 2 showing up on every freq when it is active and I hear the traffic just fine as well as Boone County Safe T simo right now on another computer and scanner.

There is nothing wrong with my scanners, my 96 and 2096 both do the exact same thing, and yes, the "-" in the CT field does have everything to do with it. As I have said before and will continue to say until I am blue in the face, when the "Dig" shows up in the CT column, this means the traffic is encrypted P25 digital voice, and the scanner will not trunk track the encrypted traffic because it is hard-coded not to do so. When the scanner sees the status bit for encryption, it does not go to the voice channel for that talkgroup because the talkgroup is encrypted and there is no reason to be listening to encrypted traffic that you can't decode. How many times do I have to say it?

I know what you guys think the program should (or shouldn't) be doing, and what is in the documentation, but I'm telling you that this is what the program is actually doing. I have it set up correctly. The decode rate is good, 99%-100% on UT from the tapped radio and 99% solid on my 2096 that is in no way, shape, or form connected to Unitrunker, although both are monitoring the same site, and only that site. I have the scanner programmed correctly. I know exactly what talkgroups are in there, I only have the control channels programmed into the bank the site is in, and other than what I have programmed, everything is locked out. For the fifteenth time, the reason the scanner is not following the traffic showing up on the talkgroup in question when the "Dig" is present in the CT column is because the traffic is digital encrypted.

Attached is another screen shot for you to explain to me if you can, showing two talkgroups active on the site. One uses digital voice and the other uses analog voice - you can check that in the database and by monitoring the talkgroups on the air. However, you will see that for both, a "-" is showing up in the CT column. This further validates the fact that the "Dig" showing up in the CT column is not a result of the modulation on the voice channel being digital, but as a result of the status bit being sent on the control channel denoting digital encryption. How many times do I have to say it?

 

[SCPD]

In this forum and elsewhere I have described "Dig" as a digital call. That was based on my understanding of the control channel. Several folks have verified that this is - strictly speaking - NOT the case. At least one person programmed a radio on a system they manage and verified that calls displayed as "Dig" were in fact encrypted (or more concisely - digital AND encrypted).

My apologies for misleading you.

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Thank you sir for the clarification!

 

[Viper43]

Not true, at least on the site I am watching. On SAFE-T, Unitrunker is only showing "Dig" when the traffic is encrypted. I further verified this by programming in the voice channel the traffic was coming across in conventional mode. Sure enough, scrambled P25. [/url]

Hahaha... and how did you verify this? Especially since only TWO radios in the entire Central Zone have Encryption installed in them? That would be a neat trick since they have not used encryption in the CZ since testing those two radios and at specific sites where the techs were using the encryption and that wasn't on ISP-CZ-DES TG. So explain that.... And I know for a fact the troopers only have two radios in the CZ that have encryption capable radios in their cars, and none of the portables are, of course if you monitored things more you'd know that.

I always have ISP-CZ-DES show up as DIG in Unitrunker and always able to follow all conversations on it so I know you are wrong. It cannot be encrypted on one site and not on others. Both my 396 and 2096 follow all comms on ISP-CZ-DES without any problems, so you DO have a problem. It may be your too close to the tower and are overloading the radios, whatever though you have issues.
Hopefully you'll figure out your problems because it isn't encryption

V

 

[Viper43]

In this forum and elsewhere I have described "Dig" as a digital call. That was based on my understanding of the control channel. Several folks have verified that this is - strictly speaking - NOT the case. At least one person programmed a radio on a system they manage and verified that calls displayed as "Dig" were in fact encrypted (or more concisely - digital AND encrypted).

My apologies for misleading you.

Unitrunker,

RE: the SAFET system it isn't encrypted 99% of the time DIG shows up, and the 2096 and 396 I have both follow both sides of any transmission on SAFET even when DIG shows up for the ISP-CZ-DES TG, except those rare occasions the techs are working on the system, and I have yet to hear the techs on that TG in the past 4 months. It may be that way on some systems but not SAFET. When, and it's very very rare that anything has been encrypted on SAFET in the Central Zone its been techs working on stuff, the 2096 ignores it but the 396 sounds like rushing air.
Encryption isn't really possible for operations at this point since only two cars in the entire CZ have it installed in their radios.

V

 

[kevin.r]

Hahaha... and how did you verify this? Especially since only TWO radios in the entire Central Zone have Encryption installed in them? That would be a neat trick since they have not used encryption in the CZ since testing those two radios and at specific sites where the techs were using the encryption and that wasn't on ISP-CZ-DES TG. So explain that.... And I know for a fact the troopers only have two radios in the CZ that have encryption capable radios in their cars, and none of the portables are, of course if you monitored things more you'd know that.

I always have ISP-CZ-DES show up as DIG in Unitrunker and always able to follow all conversations on it so I know you are wrong. It cannot be encrypted on one site and not on others. Both my 396 and 2096 follow all comms on ISP-CZ-DES without any problems, so you DO have a problem. It may be your too close to the tower and are overloading the radios, whatever though you have issues.
Hopefully you'll figure out your problems because it isn't encryption

V

I don't know conclusively that ISP-CZ-DES is using encryption, but I can say this: this afternoon I am having a significant amount of traffic on that TG on both my 396 and 996 that isn't decoding properly. This is on the Bloomington tower, which is less than 4 miles from me. The TG shows up on the radio display like normal, but I get a lot of "machine gunning" and unintelligible audio that cuts in and out. I don't have this problem with any other TG's on the Bloomington tower. I have heard this one or two times before and it seems to be a recent phenomenon.

That, along with DiGiTaLD's screenshots and Unitrunker's confirmation that "Dig" means digital encryption, leads me to think it likely is encryption.

Viper43, I'm curious how you know there are only two radios with encryption in CZ. I'm not saying your are wrong, just wondering. Feel free to PM me if you want to.

Regardless of whether it is or is not encryption I'm glad everyone is discussing the issue in a civil manner. There's some good information in this thread and I don't want to see it get locked.

Kevin

 

[kevin.r]

TG 4552 = encryption on ISP-CZ-DES

I figured it out, and I think I can prove it!

There is an option on the 996 (and probably the 396) called "Set Status Bit", which on my scanner was set to "Ignore". The other possible setting is "Yes", so I changed it to that.

If anyone isn't aware of what status bits are, they give extra information about Motorola talkgroups such as patched, encrypted, etc. The 996 was ignoring these status bits before I changed that setting.

At 14:35:31 Eastern (19:35 UTC) today I logged traffic on TG 4552 on my 996. This happens to be the ISP-CZ-DES TG ID (4544) + 8. A status bit of TGID+8 means digital encryption according to many sources on the RR wiki and forum and other sites.

I am now absolutely convinced this is encryption on this TG. For those of you with a 996 or 396, try setting the "Set Status Bit" option to "Yes" and see what TG shows up on your display. Sorry, I don't know how to do the equivalent setting on a 2096 or 96.

So, if I am incorrect (which has been know to happen before), someone please correct me by providing some form of conclusive proof/documentation.

Thanks all.

Kevin

 

[DiGiTaLD]

SAFET system it isn't encrypted 99% of the time DIG shows up, and the 2096 and 396 I have both follow both sides of any transmission on SAFET even when DIG shows up for the ISP-CZ-DES TG

Sounds like there is something wrong with your Unitrunker setup, because it should not be showing "Dig" in the CT column unless it is encrypted digital P25. See the post from the guy who wrote the program above.

It may be that way on some systems but not SAFET.

SAFE-T is a Motorola system. It should be the same across the board. You are probably seeing "Dig" all the time for the same reason people keep seeing "0" and "16" show up in their CT column.

When, and it's very very rare that anything has been encrypted on SAFET in the Central Zone its been techs working on stuff, the 2096 ignores it but the 396 sounds like rushing air.

Evidently you have never listened to encypted P25. Encrypted P25 sounds like badly scrambled voice. It does not sound like the analog encryption "rushing air" sound you describe.

Hahaha... and how did you verify this? Especially since only TWO radios in the entire Central Zone have Encryption installed in them? That would be a neat trick since they have not used encryption in the CZ since testing those two radios and at specific sites where the techs were using the encryption and that wasn't on ISP-CZ-DES TG. So explain that....

Uh, I monitored it when they were using it. As I have said over and over again in this thread, it is the only time "Dig" has appeared in Unitrunker, and the only time the 2096 has ignored the talkgroup. When traffic on the talkgroup is in the clear, the scanner has no trouble following it. That's the 99% of the time that "Dig" does not show up and there is only a "-" in the CT column. They have been using encryption on the talkgroup a lot, almost daily for the past couple weeks.

Hopefully you'll figure out your problems because it isn't encryption

Yes, it is.

 

[kevin.r]

I figured it out, and I think I can prove it!

I fired up ID Tracker II and monitored for a while. I manged to capture a screenshot of ID Tracker and will try to post it. Hopefully this works...

Kevin

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Thanks kevin, but I don't think anything will convice Viper at this point. He knows it all about this system, and knows exactly what's going across the entire state. Jeez, you'd think he's working for the IPSC.

Viper, think for just a minute - isn't it possible that you are not privy to all the inner-workings of the what the major drug squad does? Maybe nobody remembered to inform you that they may have started using encryption for surveillance operations. Several people now have monitored what is almost certainly encryption in use on the system, and it is apparently now in use on an operational basis. But since this is contrary to the "inside information" you have, you apparently refuse to accept it.

I think its pretty clear that encryption is in use, based on what Unitrunker said above, as well as the information posted by kevin.

 

[SCPD]

I have been checking this out and see what you are talking about on UniTrunker now but I am not 100%sure yet it is encrypted the 996T has audio there not voice but normaly the 996T will show ENC for encryption
Off topic I am finding out the 996T will show diffrent info not listed in the book such as DAT for the new Meca true P25 system but Im still not sure about this TG for encryption Unitrunker claims it cant see encryption. But it appaers to see somthing.

 

[jerk]

I have been checking this out and see what you are talking about on UniTrunker now but I am not 100%sure yet it is encrypted the 996T has audio there not voice but normaly the 996T will show ENC for encryption
Off topic I am finding out the 996T will show diffrent info not listed in the book such as DAT for the new Meca true P25 system but Im still not sure about this TG for encryption Unitrunker claims it cant see encryption. But it appaers to see somthing.

Page 41 of the BCD396 manual says DAT means data from a Control Channel is being received.
And it is common with 96k systems, that and the Hex and site information is formated differently from a 36K system.

Don't use Unitrunker so no comments for that.

AL

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Unitrunker claims it cant see encryption. But it appaers to see somthing.

Read his post above. He clarified what "Dig" means in the context of a Motorola system. You can't very well argue with the man that wrote the program.

In this forum and elsewhere I have described "Dig" as a digital call. That was based on my understanding of the control channel. Several folks have verified that this is - strictly speaking - NOT the case. At least one person programmed a radio on a system they manage and verified that calls displayed as "Dig" were in fact encrypted (or more concisely - digital AND encrypted).

That should settle this whole debate, but apparently it hasn't.

 

[aaron315]

Copied yesterday (Saturday) on the Greenwood tower: ISP-CZ-DES on a 996T the display posted ENC and then it moved on...

 

[kadetklapp]

Hahaha... and how did you verify this? Especially since only TWO radios in the entire Central Zone have Encryption installed in them? That would be a neat trick since they have not used encryption in the CZ since testing those two radios and at specific sites where the techs were using the encryption and that wasn't on ISP-CZ-DES TG. So explain that.... And I know for a fact the troopers only have two radios in the CZ that have encryption capable radios in their cars, and none of the portables are, of course if you monitored things more you'd know that.

How mature. Someone who probably knows more about radios than you do proves you wrong (since YOU insisted on arguing) so you stoop to insults in a lame attempt to keep your theory viable. The MAN WHO WROTE THE PROGRAM confirmed what it was. Get over it.

DiGiTaL D, thanks for the research and info.

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Unitrunker Log

Here's a few seconds of Unitrunker logs that prove encryption is in use on SAFE-T. First, the math to explain it.

As documented in the wiki and elsewhere, encryption adds a +8 status bit to a Motorola talkgroup. This means that in decimal format, the talkgroup in question here, which would be as 4544 without encryption, becomes 4552 with encryption (the original ID with the +8 status bit). The hex conversion is important, because Unitrunker logs everything in hex format. 4544 in hex format is 11C0 and 4552 is 11C8. Thus, Unitrunker logs would show 11C8 for a channel grant for this talkgroup with encryption in use (remember, the status bit).

2008-01-29 15:08:34 43 of 43 (100%)
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
4300 I 3BF Network Status
7829 G 308
399C G 320
63D4 I 30B NetInfo, Sys=7829, Cell=<15>, Alt DChan=3D4 867.9000, Band=821, Wide, Astro, Analog
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
4300 I 3BF Network Status
7829 G 308
219C G 320
63EB G 30B NetInfo, Sys=7829, Cell=<09>, uses DChan=3EB 868.4750, Band=821, Wide, Astro, Analog
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
9D19 I 308
2C4A I 30B Radio 9D19 waved off because of Radio ID
9D19 I 308
2C4A I 30B Radio 9D19 waved off because of Radio ID
FFFF G 36E Site 15
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
9D19 I 308
2C4A I 30B Radio 9D19 waved off because of Radio ID
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
9D19 I 308
2C4A I 30B Radio 9D19 waved off because of Radio ID
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
B860 G 321
11C8 G 3C3 Channel Grant Astro 3C3 I B860 -> G 11C8
2008-01-29 15:08:35 43 of 43 (100%)
B860 G 321
11C8 G 3C3 Channel Grant Astro 3C3 I B860 -> G 11C8
B860 G 321
11C8 G 3C3 Channel Grant Astro 3C3 I B860 -> G 11C8
B860 G 321
11C8 G 3C3 Channel Grant Astro 3C3 I B860 -> G 11C8
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
11C8 G 3C3 Continuation 3C3 G 11C8
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
11C8 G 3C3 Continuation 3C3 G 11C8
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
11C8 G 3C3 Continuation 3C3 G 11C8
4300 I 3BF Network Status
7829 G 308
499C G 320
63BE G 30B NetInfo, Sys=7829, Cell=<19>, uses DChan=3BE 868.9750, Band=821, Wide, Astro, Analog
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
11C8 G 3C3 Continuation 3C3 G 11C8
4300 I 3BF Network Status
7829 G 308
2D9C G 320
6171 G 30B NetInfo, Sys=7829, Cell=<12>, uses DChan=171 860.2375, Band=821, Wide, Astro, Analog
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
11C8 G 3C3 Continuation 3C3 G 11C8
4300 I 3BF Network Status
7829 G 308
019C G 320
62A2 G 30B NetInfo, Sys=7829, Cell=<01>, uses DChan=2A2 867.8625, Band=821, Wide, Astro, Analog
3040 G 3C0 System is Type II or IIi 800 Connect Tone=83.72 Hz
4900 G 3C0 Status[2] = 0900
6101 G 3BF Network Status
3040 G 3BF Network Status
11C8 G 3C3 Continuation 3C3 G 11C8
4300 I 3BF Network Status
7829 G 308
719C G 320
62CB G 30B NetInfo, Sys=7829, Cell=<29>, uses DChan=2CB 868.8875, Band=821, Wide, Astro, Analog
2008-01-29 15:08:36 43 of 43 (100%)

 

[Viper43]

Guys, keep in mind the DES in the talkgroup called ISP-CZ-DES stands for "Drug Enforcement Section"...not Digital Encryption Standard. DES is the new name for what many of us remember as "Major Drug".

And it STILL isn't encrypted. North, South or Central zones. I'm listening to Central Zone right now, nice and clear, as it is every day. And for those claiming the South Zone is encrypted, wrong again, coming back from TN Saturday evening I listened to the South Zone DES all the way from the KY border to just South of Indy, then I switched over to Central Zone, they were working another project..... It's really hard encrypt traffic when only one or two units actually have the capability, two cars in the Central Zone have it and they are on the ERT not DES.