Encryption

[Renegade631]

Step 1: Buy/Download some books on general encryption theory
Step 2: Buy/Steal/Find Equipment, manuals, and programming software/cables that uses the encryption you want to decrypt
Step 3: Find a place other than RadioReference to discuss it (I'm shocked this thread got as far as it did, much less if anyone started discussing process)
Step 4: Contact me privately, I'm down.
Step 5: Hack Baby Hack!

The simplest answer to the question is, yes it is possible.
The truth of the matter is, unless you plan to use this to pull off some kind of heist that will have you set for life and absolutely requires listening to encrypted radio communications, it is far from practical.

But as a hobby project, what could be more fun than illegally attempting to listen to communications someone went through a great deal of time and expense to keep you out of?

Not so long ago nobody thought MD5 could be deciphered, now a free MD5 decrypter is the first result of a Google search. WEP stands for wired equivalency protocol, once someone thought it was just as good as communicating over a wire, today anyone with 30 seconds to kill can see how false that turned out to be.

I would seek out forums and IRC channels with people who decrypt for a hobby, software crackers and other hackers who may or may not be so well versed in radios, bring some radio skill to the table and form a team of like minded people with different skillsets.

 

[N_Jay]

The future of breaking strong encryption (AES) will be done not by using Cray's, but by quantum computing.

Of course. That is because today they are not practical and they have been the"next big thing" for about 15 years now, and todays hard problems will always predicted to be easily solved by "the next big thing" (Except most of these projections are wrong)

Whether or not any intelligence agency already possesses this technology is not for certain.

It is for certain, and the answer is no.

If they do, it's classified.

Don't worry about it. t is more likely to come out a university than the feds..

256-bit AES was designed with quantum computing in mind. While cryptanalysts anticipate the arrival of quantum computers, cryptographers are working on their own technological miracle- an encryption system that would reestablish privacy even when confronted with the power of a quantum computer. In theory this type of encryption would guarantee security for eternity.

You are reading too much science-fiction and listening to Coast-to-coast too much.

In all, breaking digital encryption is NSA/GCHQ stuff and it involves much more than trying to brute force the key.

Yep!

The only encryption around me is on the FBI freq's. They still use analog radio with DES.

I am fairly sure they are DIGITAL (FSK/CVSD) radios.

You all keep mentioning Cray's. The Cray supercomputer was never intended for cracking algorithms. Compared to FPGA's or ASIC a Cray is an abacus. With a proper ASIC set up you could break DES in about 2 seconds. We are talking about a multi-million dollar investment too.

Yes, but breaking DES with well known vulnerabilities and attacking a modern encryption scheme where your process is still in flux and can not be hard coded, are very different things.
(And I think I mentioned Cray only once, but you are not one for accuracy, are you?)

Being able to break real encrypted messages will never be done by hobbyists as even high end analog scrambling is almost impossible to break by technical listeners.

And in the end we agree.

 

[wlmr]

It can be done and has already been done. Sorry Njay mister encryption God.

The internet seems to be the great resource for everything, especially the illegal or immoral. Until someone can provide a link to a site that explains by some anonymous source exactly how to do this (AND IS VERIFIED AS WORKING) I'll just smile and shake my head everytime I read a message like this one. They seem to always point to breaking an encrypted text document to prove their point. A semi-noisy radio signal carrying encrypted voice acts very little like an intact file that has been encrypted.

The current evidence is that even GIVEN the correct key as was done on this very site, decoding encrypted voice is very VERY difficult. By the time audio is sucessfully unscrambled, whatever was said will be hopelessly outdated. (And your recorded slice of secret audio will most likely be a segment of the coordination of an order for someone to pick up coffee and donuts for the team.)

Also just your luck, once you get a decoder working on that key, the key may be changed (start over!) or the next talkgroup you attempt to listen to uses a different key. No rule says a system will stay with the same key for everything.

I'm back to smiling and shaking my head!

 

[signal500]

Mike,

"What is to stop someone from coming up with a program that can either decode it or be able to come up with the encryption code keys?"

Nothing, just write a program and give it a try.

I know of some Federal Agencies that change there encryption key code every eight hours. Other agencies just transfer one key to there radios and never change it for many years.

In my opinion, I would think that it would be very difficult and almost impossible for hobbyists, even with a fast computer processor, to find the correct key.

I have also read that the NSA does have a "backdoor" key that they can use to crack any DES, DVP and other encryption devices. I do not know if that is true.

 

[MMIC]

Something that seems to be missing here (or maybe I just missed its' mention) is that encryption keys are often changed monthly, if not weekly, in the case of most federal government agencies. So you can pull a sample of encrypted audio off the air and start hacking away at it by whatever method you choose, but the fact of the matter is that if you don't crack it before they change the key, you will have wasted your time. The way they stay ahead of computing power is by determining how long it would take to crack the current encryption using the most powerful computing power available commercially, then schedule the changing of keys well before that could be done.

So if you want to be daring enough to try and hack encryption, chances are good that the key will be changed by the time you get the encryption key figured out. That's why it's not worth the time unless you're a determined enemy like (insert your favorite example here).

 

[Astro25]

Well it looks like everyone has stretched out their genitalia quite far enough in another "omg how to I break t3h encrypts" thread....

 

[RayAir]

Of course. That is because today they are not practical and they have been the"next big thing" for about 15 years now, and todays hard problems will always predicted to be easily solved by "the next big thing" (Except most of these projections are wrong)

It is for certain, and the answer is no.

Don't worry about it. t is more likely to come out a university than the feds..


You are reading too much science-fiction and listening to Coast-to-coast too much.

Yep!


I am fairly sure they are DIGITAL (FSK/CVSD) radios.


Yes, but breaking DES with well known vulnerabilities and attacking a modern encryption scheme where your process is still in flux and can not be hard coded, are very different things.
(And I think I mentioned Cray only once, but you are not one for accuracy, are you?)


And in the end we agree.

Please leave your bickering to the wasteland. FYI, the FBI Detroit office still uses an analog freq, they may have digital ones, but they can sometimes be heard in the clear with a PL of 167.9. That is obviously not digital. And it would be impossible for you to know if quantum computing technology currently exists.

 

[N_Jay]

Please leave your bickering to the wasteland.

I will try, but you know how it goes.

(Have you considered leaving your "pontificating" there?)

FYI, the FBI Detroit office still uses an analog freq, they may have digital ones, but they can sometimes be heard in the clear with a PL of 167.9.

Wow, I did not know that "frequencies" were digital or analog.

I do know that modulation schemes can be digital or analog. What is the modulation scheme they use when encrypted? (Not that I ever expect you to answer a direct question)

That is obviously not digital.

Yes, FM modulation (even with PL) is analog. Is that what they use for their encryption??

And it would be impossible for you to know if quantum computing technology currently exists.

I guess when you have worked in a University Lab, you get an appreciation for technology development.
The basic idea that the Government has technologies that are much more advanced (if more advanced at all) than commercial and research institutions is a myth.

If you knew how the government goes about buying equipment and technology you would be surprised when they are not 5 to 10 years behind commercial systems.

 

[RayAir]

I will try, but you know how it goes.

(Have you considered leaving your "pontificating" there?)


Wow, I did not know that "frequencies" were digital or analog.

I do know that modulation schemes can be digital or analog. What is the modulation scheme they use when encrypted? (Not that I ever expect you to answer a direct question)


Yes, FM modulation (even with PL) is analog. Is that what they use for their encryption??


I guess when you have worked in a University Lab, you get an appreciation for technology development.
The basic idea that the Government has technologies that are much more advanced (if more advanced at all) than commercial and research institutions is a myth.

If you knew how the government goes about buying equipment and technology you would be surprised when they are not 5 to 10 years behind commercial systems.

Good Lord, (insert serenity prayer here). The FBI, located at the MacNamara Federal Building in Detroit, still uses analog modulation with a PL of 167.9 in clear mode, with secure mode being Motorola Securenet or similar. It sounds like this- "hhhsssssssssssssssss... and then a high pitch tone at the end". Was that simple enough to understand for you? And the governmental agencies have a much larger budget than any university or collegiate research dept or in other words, access to much more sophisticated equipment.

 

[zguy1243]

man this is eating me up. I gotta ask. Njay, What do you do all day man? Do you have job? Are you retired? You know to much to be google educated, but at the same time I know no employer could have possibly put up with you....no offense..Just curious as hell.

 

[RiceCake]

This conversation is hilarious. Your modulation scheme has nothing to do with it. FM, AM, SSB, they're just waves carrying information. You could use digitally encrypted sound on a CB radio if you wanted to, though I'm sure it would very much annoy people!

Regardless, encryptions usually get broken by way simpler methods, like the key getting out or a flaw being found. Thats why AES replaced DES, and keys (should) be regularily changed. We're only lucky enough that all the P25 data on what the signal is, is broadcast in the clear. Its only the actual audio stream that is fudged.

Computers may be fast, but remember, theres a computer on the other end generating it, not some kid with a codebook. Some 2^256 combination of possible passwords...regularily changed...possibly hardened by other methods of security...

I don't think anyone in their right minds would spend decades breaking it, for free, the only benefit being able to hear people talk, only to find out the key was later changed on them anyhow.

I know computers but I don't know radio's. Please know that before finding something stupid to nit-pick on.

 

[immelmen]

I guess when you have worked in a University Lab, you get an appreciation for technology development.
The basic idea that the Government has technologies that are much more advanced (if more advanced at all) than commercial and research institutions is a myth.

If you knew how the government goes about buying equipment and technology you would be surprised when they are not 5 to 10 years behind commercial systems.

....unless a person works in a SCIF, has a SSBI with lifestyles polly, has TS/SCI//B/TK (at a minimum) at the top and bottom of their documents and has a signed NDA on file for the compartment under which such programs would be held, the above is a very foolish comment to make.....and those that do fit this criteria, know being "walked out" means a lot more than a SPO escort off the property.... i.e., what happens behind the baffled hall turns and vault doors in norther Virginia and suburban Baltimore stays there, period.

and the FBI, on occasion, uses analog FM in metro Washington DC, too.

 

[N_Jay]

Good Lord, (insert serenity prayer here).

Thank you (I do hope you are praying for your own enlightenment)

The FBI, located at the MacNamara Federal Building in Detroit, still uses analog modulation with a PL of 167.9 in clear mode, with secure mode being Motorola Securenet or similar.

OK, Lets us assume it is Motorola Securenet running DES. Given that assumption, which I thing we would both agree with, I have to ask the question:
You do know that Motorola Securenet is DIGITAL modulation, and not ANALOG, modulation? Don't you?
Because if you BELIEVED it was ANALOG, it would show a serious lack of understanding.
AND if you used that miss0belife as the center of your argument it would show significant OVERCONFIDENCE in what you THINK you KNOW!

It sounds like this- "hhhsssssssssssssssss... and then a high pitch tone at the end".

Well at least your ears work. Let's check between them.

Was that simple enough to understand for you?

Problem found!

And the governmental agencies have a much larger budget than any university or collegiate research dept or in other words, access to much more sophisticated equipment.

Money is not always the name of the game.

Someone has to build the stuff the Government buys. You really think it is so damn different from what you and I buy?

Nope, it is just older technology (due to the long procurement cycle) build into specific configurations (usually at least partially boondoggles) and supplied with excessive documentation (usually to prove the price is fair).

 

[N_Jay]

....unless a person works in a SCIF, has a SSBI with lifestyles polly, has TS/SCI//B/TK (at a minimum) at the top and bottom of their documents and has a signed NDA on file for the compartment under which such programs would be held, the above is a very foolish comment to make.....and those that do fit this criteria, know being "walked out" means a lot more than a SPO escort off the property.... i.e., what happens behind the baffled hall turns and vault doors in norther Virginia and suburban Baltimore stays there, period.

and the FBI, on occasion, uses analog FM in metro Washington DC, too.

Maybe I can clarify my point.

What was the time lag between the Feds getting portable DES secure radios (The first of Motorola's Securnet line) and the general public being able to purchase the DVP version?

What was the time lag between the Feds getting portable GPS and a commercial version?

Look at the cutting edge computing programs. Commercial and research is almost always in the lead.

Quantum computing is not here YET!!! At the basic operational level.
I AM not saying the Feds won't get it first, if they throw enough money at it. but the breakthrough that makes it practical is just as likely to come from a commercial computer company or a university research program first.

And even when it does happen, I would bet that all will know in a matter of months.

Even the Manhattan Project only applied technology well known in the research community.
All the Feds supplied was resources and a goal.

 

[masonb]

Wops...

Repost

 

[w0fg]

Immelmen is right. Not all Feds are created equal. Those that know don't talk, and those that talk don't know.

 

[WayneH]

Another thing to consider is that available codes for voice encryption, at least for DES-XL, OFB, etc is not equal to what is mathematically possible. I forget why, something to do with logical equations, but you can only use certain patterns for encryption keys.

ETA: N_Jay, it's time to cool your jets.

 

[N_Jay]

Immelmen is right. Not all Feds are created equal. Those that know don't talk, and those that talk don't know.

You are talking about information, not technology.

That still does not make technology magically appear for them while being unsuccessfully worked on by commercial and university researchers.

 

[N_Jay]

ETA: N_Jay, it's time to cool your jets.

My jets are cool.

(Although the 9-11 Truth crap had me heated.)

 

[immelmen]

You are talking about information, not technology.

I was talking about technology.

That still does not make technology magically appear for them while being unsuccessfully worked on by commercial and university researchers.

...How do you know? ever heard of the DST? https://www.cia.gov/offices-of-cia/science-technology/index.html