Encryption

[digitransfer]

if i told you , i would have to kill you.
if you dont know , i`m not going to tell you.

Computers can do anthing with the correct knowledge and programs.

 

[jhooten]

They have no need for this. They simply pay crooked cops within the department who tip them off. Why sit around listening to radios all day when for far less money and trouble, you can hire your very own personal incident alerting service? They throw the crooked cops a bone here and there, allow a small amount of their product to be seized now and then along with a faithful mule to take the fall for it and everyone wins.

-AZ

True with limitations. The problem with human intel is the human. If he is willing to break his oath to his community he will eventually betray them to another criminal organization for more money, or to LE to save his own skin.

Human intel backed up with Sigint. There is no such thing as too much info.

 

[N_Jay]

if i told you , i would have to kill you.
if you don't know , i`m not going to tell you.

More BS.

Computers can do anything with the correct knowledge and programs.

No they can't.

 

[slicerwizard]

I asked the board to do this very thing on MY encrypted transmission a couple of years ago. I gave them the recorded message, the algo and the key and it still has NOT been cracked.

How is it the "very thing" if you provided the key? What is there to crack if you provided the key?

 

[b7spectra]

I appreciate all the answers everyone passed on. I do know that with OTAR, your radio has to have the "code" to receive as well as the "key" to process it, so I know it can be a pain. I was also informed that only the radio's with the right serial numbers would also be able to receive the OTAR. I'm just throwing this out, I guess someone with a radio with say a DES installed and connected to some software, would it be possible to "intercept" the OTAR?

Now for a twist, what about ProVoice? Now, where I'm at, it's B98.5% Motorola, so could someone with a ProVoice radio receive the transmissions or it ProVoice the equivalent to Motorola encryption?

BTW - I do REALLY appreciate the sincere replies and no flames, as I grew up in the analog world, fuddling through with P25 and way out of touch with encryption!

 

[rescue161]

How is it the "very thing" if you provided the key? What is there to crack if you provided the key?

I started the "contest" on 03 Mar 2007, and after nobody won my prizes, I gave them the first 12 digits of the key on 11 Mar 2007. Then after nobody could do it, on 22 Jun 2007, I gave the whole key along with the Logical ID.

15 Jul 2007:

Here's what I have for timing on the sentences:

1, about 1.4 seconds,

2, about 2.7 seconds
I believe this is the sentence you posted:
"They can be modified into other puzzles that can be even more challenging."

3, about 6.1 seconds

Total, close to 11 seconds of transmission.



Cheers,

Casey

All this and we HAVE the key... And a Phrase... And the model and mode the radio was in etc... In the real world you'd have to guess all that...

If he changes the key by 1 bit, then I'd be toast. If you are off 1 bit in the stream you are decoding, your're toast.

I am in agreement that DES decryption, is VERY, VERY difficult.

I doubt anyone will ever be able to post a clear decode of the original message...

If you could eliminate all the variables, except for the key... Then, you'd still have an unbelievable amount of keys to try...

I'd like to see some of those who think DES is so easy to crack, crack this message given all the information we have...

Cheers,

Casey

Heck, it still has not been completely cracked and it's been way over a year and almost two (in March 2009).

 

[digitransfer]

More BS.


No they can't.

Wow i bet you will say you cant decode MDT`s either. lol
Listen anything thats is put out there , there is away around the secure aspect of it.
All you need is maybe a radio tech thats works for a specific county on a specific system.
The keys are available and the methods are there to intercepts encrypted transmission.
You just wont catch anybody admitting to it because of the legalities of it.
Companies like Motorola , MA-Com like to make the buyer of system think thats it totally secure.
You Jay seriously cant be so ignorant, that you really think that something is 100% secure.
There is nothing in this world thats 100% secure.

 

[N_Jay]

I do know that with OTAR, your radio has to have the "code" to receive as well as the "key" to process it, so I know it can be a pain. I was also informed that only the radio's with the right serial numbers would also be able to receive the OTAR. I'm just throwing this out, I guess someone with a radio with say a DES installed and connected to some software, would it be possible to "intercept" the OTAR?

Nope, because the keys are sent out encrypted by yet another key.

Now for a twist, what about ProVoice? Now, where I'm at, it's B98.5% Motorola, so could someone with a ProVoice radio receive the transmissions or it ProVoice the equivalent to Motorola encryption?

ProvVoice is not encryption. However it can be encrypted.

 

[N_Jay]

Wow i bet you will say you cant decode MDT`s either. lol

Many MDT systems traffic is encoded, NOT encrypted.
Any you can decode is NOT encrypted.
(More proof you don't understand the basics of the points you are trying to argue)

Listen anything thats is put out there , there is away around the secure aspect of it.

Only with more computing power AND more time than you, I, or any other adversary has.

All you need is maybe a radio tech thats works for a specific county on a specific system.

Again, you simply don't understand the basic concept of encryption. Unless the tech can steal a key, you can not decode.
If proper security measures are in place, the keys are not available to "techs".

The keys are available and the methods are there to intercepts encrypted transmission.

You are making the VERY BIG ASSUMPTION that you can get the key and the equipment before they change the key.

I am not arguing that a proper piece of equipment with the proper key will not decrypt the signal (DUH), But that is NOT breaking the encryption!

You just wont catch anybody admitting to it because of the legalities of it..

No, you won't find anyone BREAKING The encryption because of the TIME and EFFORT required, and you won't find anyone STEALING the keys because proper security protocols make it very difficult and of very little value (Old keys are worthless as soon as the key is changed. The key is changed as soon as a compromise is suspected and regularly even without suspected issues.

Companies like Motorola , MA-Com like to make the buyer of system think thats it totally secure.

The buyer like the Feds are very aware if EXACTLY how secure their systems are. They designed most of the security protocols and procedures.

You Jay seriously cant be so ignorant, that you really think that something is 100% secure.

Find one place I said that?

But don't feel bad, I do seriously think you are ignorant enough to keep arguing points you don't fully understand.

There is nothing in this world thats 100% secure.

Again, you are arguing with something I never said. (More evidence of your lack of understanding of the subject and my discussion of the subject.

 

[Astro25]

The buyer like the Feds are very aware if EXACTLY how secure their systems are. They designed most of the security protocols and procedures.

If you're talking about encryption... the people in the Secure Division at Motorola Schaumburg are the ones that design it, not the feds....


Astro25

 

[poltergeisty]

Without using a paid service, crack this! :lol:

http://tinyurl.com/firefoxportable

 

[N_Jay]

If you're talking about encryption... the people in the Secure Division at Motorola Schaumburg are the ones that design it, not the feds....


Astro25

If you are talking about the hardware and a good part of the software you are mostly correct.

If you are talking about the "security protocols and procedures" (as I said) you are mostly incorrect.

Thanks for playing!:wink:

 

[slicerwizard]

Heck, it still has not been completely cracked and it's been way over a year and almost two (in March 2009).

IIRC, whoever was attempting this feat was having a lot of problems just extracting the bitstream from the audio recording, which is an entirely separate issue from what this thread is about. I haven't seen the recording, but I got the impression that it wasn't very good. If the "cracker" had a good recording, the DES algorithm, the full key, etc., exactly what was the problem?

 

[mancow]

It's CVSD modulation so I would think that to obtain the best sample you would need something like an SDR-14 that records the exact swath of spectrum the signal occupies. (as opposed to analog voice inversion hopping that deal strictly with audio) or (P25 where you could extract the data stream more easily).

 

[b7spectra]

Hey, guys! Let's not get into an argument about it! I'm asking questions, that's all. I don't need to hear you all up here whining and complaining and fighting with each other. Take that to private. Let's get back on target.

With the question of keys, syskeygen was made available by someone and now it's out there. Keys for the encryption are probably out there, but, of course, NO ONE is going to admit it. I'm not asking for them nor am I against it, just remember my 1st question was how hard is it to break the encryption (or I should say, is it possible). Myself and others really would not like this to get locked down, to take you petty bickering PRIVATE!

 

[N_Jay]

Hey, guys! Let's not get into an argument about it! I'm asking questions, that's all. I don't need to hear you all up here whining and complaining and fighting with each other. Take that to private. Let's get back on target.

With the question of keys, syskeygen was made available by someone and now it's out there. Keys for the encryption are probably out there, but, of course, NO ONE is going to admit it. I'm not asking for them nor am I against it, just remember my 1st question was how hard is it to break the encryption (or I should say, is it possible). Myself and others really would not like this to get locked down, to take you petty bickering PRIVATE!

You still don't get it.

How hard is it to "Break" the encryption?
Very hard to darn near impossible.
How hard is it to do a dictionary attack?
Very hard to damn near impossible because the key length is LONG.
Are the keys out there?
Yes, and no. The Key is nothing but a string of bits. It is not like someone has a magic key or a master key.
In any good system all the keys are orthogonal. (And the systems since DES are all very good systems!)
System keys for Smartnet are nothing compared to AES encryption keys.
Plus you don't have a fixed encrypted sample to test against.

 

[poltergeisty]

It's like he never read my first post... :lol: #3

 

[slicerwizard]

You still don't get it.

How hard is it to "Break" the encryption?
Very hard to darn near impossible.
How hard is it to do a dictionary attack?
Very hard to damn near impossible because the key length is LONG.
Are the keys out there?
Yes, and no. The Key is nothing but a string of bits. It is not like someone has a magic key or a master key.
In any good system all the keys are orthogonal. (And the systems since DES are all very good systems!)
System keys for Smartnet are nothing compared to AES encryption keys.
Plus you don't have a fixed encrypted sample to test against.

Methinks you're wasting your time...

 

[N_Jay]

Methinks you're wasting your time...

Methinks you are right, :roll:
but me thinks others get a good view of how foolish he is this way.:twisted::lol::twisted:

 

[RayAir]

The future of breaking strong encryption (AES) will be done not by using Cray's, but by quantum computing. Whether or not any intelligence agency already possesses this technology is not for certain. If they do, it's classified. 256-bit AES was designed with quantum computing in mind. While cryptanalysts anticipate the arrival of quantum computers, cryptographers are working on their own technological miracle- an encryption system that would reestablish privacy even when confronted with the power of a quantum computer. In theory this type of encryption would guarantee security for eternity.

In all, breaking digital encryption is NSA/GCHQ stuff and it involves much more than trying to brute force the key. I have never attempted to analyze digital encryption. I have worked with many different forms of analog scrambling however . Some are much better than others. The only Transcrypt scrambler I like is the Transcrypt DES. Even with the Transcrypt 460 you can recover some complete sentences by recording the scrambled audio to Cool Edit and analyzing the spectral view to estimate inversion frequencies as they change. Transcrypt 400,410/16 and 430 are junk. The Midian TVS-2 is junk, unless it is in advanced mode (13-25 hops/p/sec.) I own all the above equipment . I know of no users in my area who even use analog scrambling. The only encryption around me is on the FBI freq's. They still use analog radio with DES.

You all keep mentioning Cray's. The Cray supercomputer was never intended for cracking algorithms. Compared to FPGA's or ASIC a Cray is an abacus. With a proper ASIC set up you could break DES in about 2 seconds. We are talking about a multi-million dollar investment too.

Being able to break real encrypted messages will never be done by hobbyists as even high end analog scrambling is almost impossible to break by technical listeners. I have thought of putting up a MASC or Transcrypt DES message just to see if anyone could even get a word or two out of it.