Eneloops & the 436HP

[N5XTC]

Why is it only taking 3 hours to charge your batteries? On my 2000 series at 600ma it take 6+ hours? Sofa may disagree, but my experience has shown me a lower ma charge will give more capacity.

two factors:
1. it is not charging them to full capacity 1700-1800 vs 2450;
2. using 700 ma charge rather than 500

bottom line, my bc700 would charge them ABOVE mah capacity and from 1.5 to 1.52 volts. these OPUS chargers are only getting them to 1.42 or 1.45 volts and to 1800mah rather than the rated 2450.

i am not sure what the hell is going on. if i did not know better, i would say the opus is a poor charge and the bc700 did it correctly. BUT i am open to alternative interpretations of the data. lol. what i am led to believe on here is that the other chargers did them incorrectly, thus the low #s now as they are being charged correctly.

 

[jdcaples]

Interesting. Tapping the <Display> key during the cycle shows similar metrics for voltage, mah and ma for all four batteries, but I acknowledge that I'm just swinging blindly in the dark getting my bearings.

When the cycle finishes, I'll make take note of all four battery metrics, mark the deviant battery with a sharpie, discharge it and Charge Test and compare final metrics.

-Jon

 

[N5XTC]

i am going to charge a few sets so i have enough to run my 436 a few days, then run the discharge/refresh mode on a set of eneloops and see if it increases their capacity. i will do at 500ma and it does 3 cycles, which will be like 30 some hours, or 1.5 days, give or take. lol

 

[SOFA_KING]

At this point Scott, I have to wonder if your Enloop batteries were damaged. Either that, or maybe counterfeit. There is a lot of that happening on Amazon and evilBay. But you can damage cells by overcharging them. And that I don't believe is fixable.

Well I'm sorry to hear of all this trouble. I guess you already returned the other chargers, so no comparing those whacked out Enloops now. I don't jump around to different methods and interrupted cycles. I stick with full end to end cycles, but I really doubt you got two bad Opus chargers. The odds of that far too great. And besides, your GP batteries exceeded specs. In fact, those numbers looked too good.

Send 'em all back! Start over.

Phil

 

[W5RGP]

here are the #s with the NEW opus

they had been discharged last night. but i discharged them again before this charge cycle. dis at 700ma and charged at 700ma

Eneloop pros 2450 mah

1. 1380 mah, 1.43 volts, 130 quick test
2. 1757, 102 qt
3. 1809, 107 qt
4. 1931, 70 qt

so, assuming it it very unlikely to get two bad opus chargers in a row, i assume these batteries need conditioning and the #s will improve.

HOWEVER, my bc700 did charge the batteries to like 1.52 volts and over the rated MAH. so, why would i not stick with that charger? why must we assume that the bc700 abused the batteries and the opus is charging them correctly? ???????????????

What are the c ratings on those cells 700 sounds high they won't last a long time charging like that if they aren't rated
I'm just thinking back to my old rc airplane days not to long ago and charging my flight pack battery's if I needed them charged quickly I would but they wouldn't last all day
But if I charged them at say 100 ma all night before they would last longer ??




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[sibbley]

Sofa, if it wasn't for your good experience with the Opus, I would think that Opus quality has gone down hill.

 

[SOFA_KING]

Sofa, if it wasn't for your good experience with the Opus, I would think that Opus quality has gone down hill.

I don't work for them, or have any affiliation whatsoever. I have just used mine non-stop since I got it. I doubt it's the Opus.

I'm actually tempted to buy a set of Enloop Pros' just to see what happens. I was going to try those EBL batteries you use. Still thinking about this...

Phil

 

[jdcaples]

Just a couple of data points at the 26 - 27 hour mark of a Discharge - Refresh cycle, brand new AAs in a new charger.... I'm going to let the other three slots finish before I do anything. I marked the deviant battery with an "S" for "suspect."

Thoughts?

-Jon

 

[sibbley]

Yeah, I don't work for them or have any affiliation either. Just own a charger that works very well for my use. I bought a set of eneloop pros just last week and put 1 set into my Whistler rotation. They're in good shape. Working well, in fact trying to kill them now. They've been running my PSR-800 since 5 AM.

I'm liking the Odecs too.

 

[SOFA_KING]

Just a couple of data points at the 26 - 27 hour mark of a Discharge - Refresh cycle, brand new AAs in a new charger.... I'm going to let the other three slots finish before I do anything. I marked the deviant battery with an "S" for "suspect."

Thoughts?

-Jon

Good testing there. I await the final numbers and slot test.

Phil

 

[N5XTC]

At this point Scott, I have to wonder if your Enloop batteries were damaged. Either that, or maybe counterfeit. There is a lot of that happening on Amazon and evilBay. But you can damage cells by overcharging them. And that I don't believe is fixable.

Well I'm sorry to hear of all this trouble. I guess you already returned the other chargers, so no comparing those whacked out Enloops now. I don't jump around to different methods and interrupted cycles. I stick with full end to end cycles, but I really doubt you got two bad Opus chargers. The odds of that far too great. And besides, your GP batteries exceeded specs. In fact, those numbers looked too good.

Send 'em all back! Start over.

Phil

well, 2 batches of eneloops from different vendors and both acting this way. be very unlikely. 2nd batch of 4 eneloops

1. UPDATE - THIS BATTERY FINALLY FINISHED: 2625
2. 1333
3. 1461
4. 1614

i will group that bad ones and run a charge/refresh on them, it does 3 cycles. i wont touch them, see what happens.

this will be interesting. i have a set of green ones in now, see how these do. the free uniden batteries. these have not been tested on the opus yet. #s later tonight as they were previously discharged. charging at 700ma.

when those come out, 4 bad eneloops for charge refresh...

I AM TAKNG THE 4 WORST ENELOOPS RANGING FROM 1330mah to 1650mah and putting them on CHARGE REFRESH at 500ma, see what happens. lol

 

[jdcaples]

New in Box Odec AA batteries in BT C3400 - three out of four finish in a little over 30 hours
1st Slot: 1.41v - 28ma - 2416mah
2nd Slot: 1.43v - 36ma - 2464mah
3rd Slot: 1.42v - 32ma - 2443mah
4th Slot: 1.41v - 32ma - 2464mah (the one that finished 3 hours before the others)

Now discharging before charge test.

Suspect battery is moved to slot one, slot one battery is now in slot four.

-Jon

 

[N5XTC]

New in Box Odec AA batteries in BT C3400 - three out of four finish in a little over 30 hours
1st Slot: 1.41v - 28ma - 2416mah
2nd Slot: 1.43v - 36ma - 2464mah
3rd Slot: 1.42v - 32ma - 2443mah
4th Slot: 1.41v - 32ma - 2464mah (the one that finished 3 hours before the others)

Now discharging before charge test.

Suspect battery is moved to slot one, slot one battery is now in slot four.

-Jon

what charge did u use jon? charge/refresh and how many MA? from the time u list, seems like charge/refersh at 500ma. you did this right from the package when they were new? how many mah are they? i will be reporting some new #s in a few minutes. looking good on my uniden batteries on the NEW opus. much quieter fan on this new opus.

 

[jdcaples]

what charge did u use jon? charge/refresh and how many MA? from the time u list, seems like charge/refersh at 500ma. you did this right from the package when they were new? how many mah are they? i will be reporting some new #s in a few minutes. looking good on my uniden batteries on the NEW opus. much quieter fan on this new opus.

Charge: I used Discharge - Refresh on new in box Odec AA 2450 mAh

These batteries have not been used in any device since they left the factory.

I don't know how to determine the MA spec. It's not on any of the packaging, nor is it on the surface of the battery.

-Jon

 

[N5XTC]

Good testing there. I await the final numbers and slot test.

Phil

Sofa, what is the process with brand NEW batteries? tell me the processs right from package (what to put them on in the charger). i will head to the local batteries plus and get a pack to test this opus on some fresh out of the pack batteries.

I do have some eneloops charged at or above specs 2773, 2625, etc. i am grouping them to be used together. others as low as 1300 and will run a charge/refresh cylce on them. just a matter of when i want to lose my charger for 30+ hours. lol. it is hard to do as you know. we need more chargers....

the green uniden batteries seem all to charge w/in specs OR better.

here is the last 3 uniden (rated 2300 mah), charged at 700ma !!!!!!ALL CHARGED ABOVE SPECS!!!!!!!

1. 2350, 140 quick test (ouch, but these were abused, charged by scanner all the time)
2. 2415, 91 quick test
3. 2445, 60 quick test

*this is becoming an obsession. i have to stop. lol. this new opus seem to be working. the damn eneloops are just hit or miss. i will get them in order, just takes time!

 

[N5XTC]

Charge: I used Discharge - Refresh on new in box Odec AA 2450 mAh

These batteries have not been used in any device since they left the factory.

I don't know how to determine the MA spec. It's not on any of the packaging, nor is it on the surface of the battery.

-Jon

that's what i meant, mah, sorry. maybe i typed it wrong. they did well. i am liking this charger. all my uniden batteries are charging at or above specs. i bet the eneloops come around after the discharge/refresh cycle.

 

[jdcaples]

Discharge Metrics for New In Box Odec AAs, Opus BT-C3400
I was expecting to see .9v in each. I started slots 3 and 4 a bit after slots 1 and 2.

Slot 1: 1.13 v (suspect battery)
Slot: 2: 1.14 v
Slot 3: 1.04 v
Slot: 4: 1.01 v (suspect slot)

Am I recalling correctly that: if you don't see the display at the end of a discharge cycle, when you get around to looking at the results,
the voltage you see on the BT-C3400 report will be greater than .9 v?

I am hoping that the BT-C3400 does - in fact - discharge the battery to a voltage of 0.9 v. Is that a reasonable expectation for the BT-C3400 device?



-Jon

 

[N5XTC]

Discharge Metrics for New In Box Odec AAs, Opus BT-C3400
I was expecting to see .9v in each. I started slots 3 and 4 a bit after slots 1 and 2.

Slot 1: 1.13 v (suspect battery)
Slot: 2: 1.14 v
Slot 3: 1.04 v
Slot: 4: 1.01 v (suspect slot)

Am I recalling correctly that: if you don't see the display at the end of a discharge cycle, when you get around to looking at the results,
the voltage you see on the BT-C3400 report will be greater than .9 v?

I am hoping that the BT-C3400 does - in fact - discharge the battery to a voltage of 0.9 v. Is that a reasonable expectation for the BT-C3400 device?



-Jon

the voltage you see will be higher than the voltage you discharged to. HOWEVER, neither of my OPUS chargers always discharged to .90 volts. sometimes u get .66 other times 1.14 or so. depends on the battery I guess. sofa can prob say more on this.

charging my last green uniden cells right now. if these go to specs, all sets of my unidens have.

NEXTUP, taking the worst eneloop as far as mah (some are 1300s) and putting them on a discharge/refresh cylce, prob take 30 hours or so. hate to lose the charger that long, but i have enough batteries charged to run many scanners for that long. lol. time to see if something can be done with the eneloops that wont charge to specs. if they improve, but still not to specs, will run ANOTHER dis/refresh cycle and do this ad infinidum until they burn the house down. lol

 

[SOFA_KING]

New in Box Odec AA batteries in BT C3400 - three out of four finish in a little over 30 hours
1st Slot: 1.41v - 28ma - 2416mah
2nd Slot: 1.43v - 36ma - 2464mah
3rd Slot: 1.42v - 32ma - 2443mah
4th Slot: 1.41v - 32ma - 2464mah (the one that finished 3 hours before the others)

Now discharging before charge test.

Suspect battery is moved to slot one, slot one battery is now in slot four.

-Jon

Jon,

All those mAh values are up there in acceptable range. I don't think you have a bad slot. The question is why it took a different amount of time. Are you absolutely sure all four slots were at the same rate of 500 mA? I noticed some things you said that gave me the impression you were not totally familiar with the charger operation. Not a criticism...just trying to understand where you're coming from so I can maybe help. IF you are certain, perhaps that one cell was not fully conditioned at the factory and the charger was just doing what it does...giving the appropriate charge time under the battery condition to break it in. Now that you have acceptable numbers for capacity, as long as you don't abuse the cells at a higher rate, I expect the mAh capacity numbers to improve.

One thing you can do to push the cells out a little more is keep running discharge at the next lowest rate until you can't go any lower (500 to 300 to 200). Scanners don't pull at 500 mA. More like 200 mA. So by doing this you finish discharge at approximately the same rate as a scanner would, but you also exercise cells where they like to run at. You WILL see discharge under 500 mA takes some time, so that indicates there is more capacity under the 500 mA cutoff. This is normal. It all has to do with load resistance.

No one can predict the condition of new cells when you get them. Once you get to know your charger and trust it, then you will be able to spot cell issues pretty quickly. Sticking to controlled experiments with recorded data on all parameters helps a lot to understand exactly what is going on. But remember...Voltage at the very ends of the process only shows for a brief time until the charger switches operation. As soon as it removes discharge, voltage goes from 0.9 to 1.1 pretty quickly and can climb to 1.2x eventually. That is because there is no load on the cell. And at the top end of charging, if you are watching at the moment the cells peak, you will see max voltage around 1.5 and the negative delta slope down to around 1.48 or 1.47 before the main charge cuts off. Watching current (mA) at this point reveals how the charger pushes and pulls the cell repeatedly to see if it can go higher. When it can't, it switches to trickle charge and voltage drops to around 1.45 or so after a few minutes. But you have to be there at the right time to see all these things. Run time on my Odec's at 500 mA is just around 5:45.

You are doing good. Like I said earlier, I would not have jumped into refresh right away, especially if you are evaluating the new charger and new cells for the first time. But you are now in control of that. I think you will see stable results now that that suspect cell came up higher in the ratings. Stick to 500 mA cycles (with repeat ramp down discharges at the bottom end...500, 300, 200) on the Odec 2450's. I have determined that is the sweet spot and optimal process for this brand and type cell.

Phil

 

[SOFA_KING]

Sofa, what is the process with brand NEW batteries? tell me the processs right from package (what to put them on in the charger). i will head to the local batteries plus and get a pack to test this opus on some fresh out of the pack batteries.

Scott, I have been stating my process again and again, but you have not been listening, or doing all sorts of different things that I can't even begin to follow. You're all over the map. How can you begin to understand what is going on if you keep changing your methods before you have time to see what is really happening?

I will once again make my recommendations after I tell you what I found out about Enloop Pro batteries after reading all the critical reviews. Then it's up to you to stop jumping around and stick to the program. If you deviate, you're on your own. No one can make you do anything, but I can't help you if you keep changing the conditions. When you do that, all integrity in testing is out the window. You'll never understand what is going on.

First off, I do not own Enloop Pro batteries. But I happened to notice that Panasonic mostly bundles their "BQ 17" charger with the Pro batteries, and rarely the "BQ 55" charger. Why would they do that if the Pro batteries have higher capacity? The difference is the 17 model charges at 300 mA, and the 55 model at 750 mA. Without knowing exactly what Panasonic recommends for charge rate on this type of cell, I take that "package" approach might be telling us 300 mA is what they recommend. Could 750 mA charge damage the Pro cells? Only well experienced users could answer that. But I would NOT push these at 700 if I purchased them. 500? Not until I received more reliable recommendations. These are NOT Odec 2450 batteries! So what works for my batteries may not be what works with Enloop Pro batteries.

Next I read all the critical reviews on the Enloop Pro sales. I had no idea there were so many people who had the same problem as you have. It happened a lot, and I noticed the dates of this type of complaint increased recently. Some people indicate a change in Pro versions that caused a drop in Quality. That explains a lot. But I also tried to determine how they charged those "bad cells". Not easy when they didn't specify the charging methods (in most cases). However, many had very short life on Panasonic chargers. GO READ all the critical reviews. That says something that validates the trends on these cells. After reading that, I know I won't be buying any Enloop Pro batteries!

So next I moved onto critical charger reviews. Ahh...now we are seeing the other end of the equation. Enloop Pro's may not like a rapid charge. 300 mA may be a sweet spot. 700 or greater might damage them to never return to usable service. Like I said...I don't own these. These are other people's reports, and earlier production versions looked to be ok.

I've also been looking at all the critical reviews on all the top chargers, since I am considering adding to my capabilities. The reports I read are again pointing to some problems with certain cell types. And some chargers work very differently. La Crosse seem to really push the cells way up (sometimes to high temperatures), and at the other end of the spectrum the Maha Powerex C9000 "Wizard One" was reported to undercharge cells to the point that some cells never performed well at all no matter how many refreshes cycles were done. This was my exact experience. I never looked at those reviews until last night. We didn't have Amazon reviews when I bought mine many years ago. I have to say that the critical reviews on Amazon are worth a lot. One trend I noticed is that quality on many things is dropping. Yes, the better brand chargers are getting "smarter", and doing better WHEN THEY WORK. Later firmware revisions work better and offer more options. But it's a crap shoot on quality. The D.C. Workshop seller of Opus is apparently the most reliable source of these, and is willing to work with you. Customer service matters. Some brands have bad service or none at all. Do your homework!

So Scott, if you are willing to stick with a program, since you asked me, what types of new "untouched" cells are you purchasing? Once I know for sure, I'll do a little research and make some suggestions.

Phil