FCC Opens Rulemaking to Allow Encryption in Amateur Radio Service

[wucherer]

Encrypt Emergency Communications

In response to a comment on a separate proceeding from a Massachusetts ham operator, the FCC has assigned a docket - RM-11699 - to his proposal to permit encryption in the amateur radio service during emergencies.

He (Don Rolph) seeks to permit encryption of certain radio communication amateur communications during emergency services operations.

Part 97 needs to be updated into the 20th century. When it was created, the "When ALL else fails" was because we didn't have cellular technology or other advancements since the Part 97 rules were originally created. If during emergency traffic, how much of our rules are relaxed? I know that during an emergency when normal communications is not accessible amateur radio can be utilized by unlicensed operators, correct? If the encryption of certain radio traffic is personal information like social security and sensitive personal information could jeopardize for fraudulent purposes I would say yes. As far as the "When ALL else fails...amateur radio" we forget the other parts of the spectrum to communicate if cellular towers aren't available. These are...citizen band, general mobile radio, family radio system.

73 de N2OBS

 

[Jimru]

But can you get it out of the water without it trying to eat you?

It's very difficult training these hippos to not eat me.

Once again, I want to apologize to the group for my little temper tantrum. It's not like me (read my posts all over this forum, you'll see).

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

 

[KF4ZMB]

It's very difficult training these hippos to not eat me.

Once again, I want to apologize to the group for my little temper tantrum. It's not like me (read my posts all over this forum, you'll see).

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Everyone has temper tantrums from time to time its a fact of life (even if it is an uglier fact). Not everyone is capable of admitting they have had one, however, and for that I sincerely commend you. HIPPOs will be HIPPOs I guess, and HIPAA will be HIPPA at times (it is even written this way on paperwork I have here at the house from a doctor's office). In the end though it is all just water under the bridge. Stay safe out there, and have fun participating in the "regularly scheduled programming".

 

[KF4ZMB]

I posted my comment to the FCC filing today (although it has not yet been posted to the website by the FCC as of this writing). One thing I noticed in reading over some of the other comments is how many people still seem to be confused over what HIPAA does and does not allow. Simply put, I am afraid that misquoting HIPAA (for example claiming that it in someway prohibits in the clear transmission of medical information, even identifiable medical information, which it does not even in routine day-to-day operations) will send the message that the commentors are unknowledgable of the situation at hand and, by extension, not qualified to make a statement one way or the other on the issue presented. Amateur Radio Operators, and other interested parties, should feel free to post their comments about this situation whether they be for or against amateur radio encryption for emergency purposes. However, please do so as an informed commentor. If you are unclear whether or not this or that law does or does not allow this or that then it is best to leave mention, or even your own interpretation, of that law out of your comment. The FCC does not expect, nor even anticipate, that every commentor will be an attorney, law professor, or even, in this case, an emergency management professional, so it is a lot better to put your comments in your own words without a need for legalese or even an appeal to any law to attempt to stregthen your case or weaken the opposing case. Remember the FCC is looking for public comments over the proposal not a law lesson on HIPAA or any other law (they already employ attorneys specifically to review and interpret the law for them). Therefore, in my very humble -- and always possibly wrong -- opinion, your comments will make a much bigger impact if they are just that -- your comments -- and not an attempt to "prove" your side, one way or another, by quoting law (especially when it is misquoted).

Respectfully,

Christian KF4ZMB

 

[mackiefan2004]

I'm super excited for this to become allowed - not required, just allowed.

 

[fgrouell]

My Vote

One of the prime directives of Amateur Radio is no encryption. Many wish to compress our usable band width which is just what encryption would do. Those encrypted would monopolize the channel they are operating on. If they can't hear you they can not yield the channel to Em com. I won't say hippa is BS, but I just don't see people in corners during a disaster jotting down notes about unknown individuals. Let's bring up another question, whats wrong with CTCSS, DCS, Digital, split channels or split formats for Rx and TX ? Being a ham I can think of many ways to obscure messages without using encryption. Please do not allow others with special intrests or our Government to limit our use of freq due to monopolization of freq's with encryption.

KB3UTS
WQOY989

 

[mackiefan2004]

Pretty sure another primary directive of Amateur Radio is "advancing the state of the art of radio".
Just sayin'.

 

[PJH]

Prime directive for ham radio?

 

[KF4ZMB]

Pretty sure another primary directive of Amateur Radio is "advancing the state of the art of radio".
Just sayin'.

Experimentation with new methods, modes, etc. is a hallmark of amateur radio. However, this proposal is NOT to allow encryption for those purposes. Rather this proposal is only to allow encryption for emergency communications, so regardless of how much encryption might or might not play an experimental role in amateur radio this proposal before the FCC says nothing about those uses. Just curious, have you ever used any radio system that is encrypted? The reason I ask is that if you are using the encrypted radio, with the right key, then the audio is exactly the same as it would be in the clear to you (unless the key fails in your radio). There is, in other words, no special bells or whistles that make "encrypted" traffic stick out to the end user. Many field level public safety users of encrypted radio systems, it has been my experience, don't even know they are encrypted unless they are told (and some errorneously believe that all transmissions are encrypted -- actually had one deputy tell me that since their VHF car to car channel used DCS that meant no one in "scanner world" could monitor him which of course is wrong). I have years of experience using encrypted radio systems. But, encryption can, and does, limit not only who can listen, but also who can participate in the communications which, in a way, removes some of the experimentation and "advancement" (however that is applied and it is applied differently by everyone -- meaning everyone has a different definition of what is and is not advancing this or that).

So, encryption might or might not add to the experimentation aspect of amateur radio, but it is not needed for emergency/disaster comms and the FCC is not looking at allowing encryption for any other purpose anyway.

Christian KF4ZMB

 

[PJH]

Unless someone can show me that they are a math major with the fundemental and adavanced method of complex algorithims that are employed in two way radio encyption, then I seriously doubt anyone would be using ENC in ham radio for "Experimentation".

Yes there are some smart cookies, but unless they are going to be developing something new from scratch - which would essentially be another digital protocal than encryption, the arguement doesn't hold water in the grand scheme of things.

The long and short of it, the current FCC pending motion was based off of bad or misguided information that a 2min Google search would have uncovered before all this nonsense would have occured.

 

[SCPD]

In response to a comment on a separate proceeding from a Massachusetts ham operator, the FCC has assigned a docket - RM-11699 - to his proposal to permit encryption in the amateur radio service during emergencies.

Filing by Wireless Telecommunications Bureau in RM-11699 on 2013-06-07 00:00:00.0

Thank you David for creating this thread. I submitted my comments to the FCC shortly after I read this. I oppose the use of encryption on amateur bands. A portion of my comments to the FCC follows.

As a licensed ham I oppose the use encryption on amateur radio bands. I live in a rural, somewhat isolated, resort area and have experienced non-licensed use of ham frequencies on a frequent basis. Quite often this involves the use of simplex frequencies in association with hang gliding and downhill skiing at our local ski area. If encryption is allowed, radio equipment capable of such will become available for anyone to purchase by licensed and unlicensed individuals. Illegal use will become much more frequent if unlicensed individuals can use encryption.

I forgot to mention that the repeater located at the top of the mountain at our local ski area is made by unlicensed operators for a type of a ski intercom for members of groups and families as the terrain makes use of FRS/GMRS handhelds ineffective over the entire mountain.

The region I live in provides world renowned hand gliding due to the dramatic elevation difference of the Sierra Nevada and White Mountains. The amount of activity in this sport is higher than almost anywhere in the country. It seems as if the illegal use of ham radio is pervasive in this sport. Other illegal operators seem to think that laws are not enforced due to the isolation of the area. For a county of only 12,000 people there is more illegal activity per capita than is present in a large city.

I foresee a dramatic increase in unlicensed amateur use if encrypted equipment becomes available to the public. It will become impossible for licensed hams to self police the bands if illegal users can turn on encryption with the flip of a switch or push of a button. This proposal presents a considerable risk of significant damage to the amateur radio service.

 

[PJH]

Use inverted dpl with different input and outputs. Can do similar arrangement with pl. 98% problem solved.

 

[KF4ZMB]

Unless someone can show me that they are a math major with the fundemental and adavanced method of complex algorithims that are employed in two way radio encyption, then I seriously doubt anyone would be using ENC in ham radio for "Experimentation".

Yes there are some smart cookies, but unless they are going to be developing something new from scratch - which would essentially be another digital protocal than encryption, the arguement doesn't hold water in the grand scheme of things.

The long and short of it, the current FCC pending motion was based off of bad or misguided information that a 2min Google search would have uncovered before all this nonsense would have occured.

I think, like you, that it is highly unlikely that encryption, of the type considered here, will become a serious part of the amateur radio experience. However, I also believe that unless we acknowledge that experimentation is a part of the amateur radio hobby, and allow for the possibility (in the future under a new proposal of course) of experimenting with encryption as a valid option (keeping in mind this is experimenting NOT just using existing encryption standards on an amateur radio frequency and then claiming this was an experiment) then those who view this current RM as a "stagnant or moving forward" battle (which it is not) will not see past this stumbling block to see that encryption, as currently proposed, is not neccesary or even useful. It is unlikely that even if an amateur happened to be a math genius that any experimental encryption they invented would "catch on" or even be used by any other radio user outside of amateur radio (or most likely even their small group of experimenters). Still, experimentation, and failure in experimentation, is a part of the human spirit. And I understand this part was wordy and I apologize for that.

With that said, thinking this through over the day I have thought about a way that amateurs could pass "encrypted" traffic of a sensitive nature in an "amateur radio or no one" scenario during a disaster without using encryption or even themselves knowing the message ... coded morse code! What I mean is you get amateur radio operator number 1 to send the message AAA DCFD 123GHF, for example, in morse code. Amateur Radio Operator 2 receives it at his location and writes it down verbatim having no clue what this means. He then gives the sheet to the EOC/EM/Disaster personnel who, knowing the "key", translate this to "extra officers are needed to secure the north border in sector 1F". The same could be done with RTTY or Packet. I know (before others point this out) that this is awfully unlikely that this situation would arise, but, as myself and others have said all along, it is just as unlikely that amateur radio alone, out of all communications systems, would be the only system available to pass "sensitive" information to begin with.

The real debate, I humbly believe, has more to do with certain hams, certainly not all, believing that being able to use these super-de-duper encrypted radio systems would be extra fun or make them part of the "in crowd" somehow. As a person who has quite a lot of experience using encrypted systems, however, I can confirm that, when it works, it is no different than any other system to the key-enabled user. You push the PTT, talk, release, and listen to the reply. No special bells or whistles go off, and, unless you just knew already, there is nothing in this exchange that in anyway tells the end user they are speaking "encrypted". When it screws up, however, then it gets interesting, but for all the wrong reasons.

,

Christian KF4ZMB

 

[alexmahoney]

I love it

Thank you David for creating this thread. I submitted my comments to the FCC shortly after I read this. I oppose the use of encryption on amateur bands. A portion of my comments to the FCC follows.



I forgot to mention that the repeater located at the top of the mountain at our local ski area is made by unlicensed operators for a type of a ski intercom for members of groups and families as the terrain makes use of FRS/GMRS handhelds ineffective over the entire mountain.

The region I live in provides world renowned hand gliding due to the dramatic elevation difference of the Sierra Nevada and White Mountains. The amount of activity in this sport is higher than almost anywhere in the country. It seems as if the illegal use of ham radio is pervasive in this sport. Other illegal operators seem to think that laws are not enforced due to the isolation of the area. For a county of only 12,000 people there is more illegal activity per capita than is present in a large city.

I foresee a dramatic increase in unlicensed amateur use if encrypted equipment becomes available to the public. It will become impossible for licensed hams to self police the bands if illegal users can turn on encryption with the flip of a switch or push of a button. This proposal presents a considerable risk of significant damage to the amateur radio service.

I saw someone suggest using FRS for emergency communications. Just what do you people NOT get on this issue???

Encryption is a winner on the ham bands because as I said in another thread, "when all else fails". This is not an ARRL creed, it is an amateur wide DIRECTIVE.

Absolutely none of you understand what is going on here and yet you want to comment like this is tragedy.

Encryption on Ham Radio would be a blessing when those times that OTHER forms of communication won't allow encryption due to power outages and other maladies.

There will be times when YOU as an amateur, have to deal with a family crisis and i'm sure you don't want to broadcast info in the clear regarding your family.

And the thing that is SOOO darn funny is you people petition the FCC to stop encryption on Amateur bands but yet you won't petition the FCC to stop encryption on police, fire and other radios. THAT is really sad.

Amateur Radio is a fraternity of ADULTS and KIDS that have gotten their licenses and yet I see nearly 85% of this board bickering with each other, banning people for stupid reasons.

Listen, this is a public board, the mods here don't own this, Lindsay does. I think there needs to be a better way to run this board without all this childish crap that is going on here daily.

Dan got chewed out by Wayne for spelling errors??? Come on people, wake up. this board needs everybody to grow up and act responsibly toward each other. and Mods, if there is something you don't agree with, give a verbal or written warning and get rid of this stupid infraction system.

Radio as a whole needs to be back in the PUBLIC's hands, not some government big wig who thinks that we suck and don't need to know everything that goes on.

and this goes for the radio manufactuers as well. They need to stop forcing these expensive radio systems down the taxpayer's throats, because we are the ones who ultimately pay the price for them.

Think about what I said and have a nice Fourth of July and stay safe.

Alex Mahoney

 

[SCPD]

First off, ALL of you are barking up the wrong tree.

I remind you of Amateur Radio's Creed: "When All Else Fails"

Some of you see no reason for encryption and want to bring HIPPA into it which is fine,

Some of you say that it needs to stay on service radios and the phone lines.

Let me ask you a question, If the service radios are down along with phone lines and cell towers, How else are we going to communicate??? Via Amateur Radio of course.

Encryption on amateur radio is LOOOONG overdue because of the above reasons I gave.

If amateurs and/or trained personnel have to relay VIP info, they must do it over Amateur Radio if there are no other working communcation lines.

Some of you just are not quite informed and don't realize that some Hams ARE ALLOWED to relay medical info to and from Hospitals and Triage sites. The key word is "RELAY"

I have watched as the original thread has fallen apart because some of you think ham radio is a god given right and encryption should stay off of amateur bands. I also remind you that ALL of you have also been against encryption on public service agency radios.

Look, you can't have it your way. I have seen you people cry when police encrypt their systems and now you want to cry when Encryption is SUGGESTED for the amateur bands.

WE, as Ham Radio Operators have a civil duty to help ALL agencies in a time of crisis. the constant bickering here on Radio Reference in ALL forums is downright disgusting.

when someone throws a disagreement or tells someone they are wrong, All hell breaks loose with the mods and forum managers throwing out wrongfully issued warnings and then bans.

Listen, ALL of you are adults, act like adults, because the whole world is counting on you for communications when everything else is down. There is no reason for censoring and/or warnings to come about when nearly every post is on topic and about communications as a whole.

Thanks,
Alex Mahoney.

Many of us have legitimate concerns with the proposal. Labeling opposition to encryption as coming from criers does not facilitate the legitimate discussion of this proposal.

 

[N4DES]

FRS is perfectly fine when controlled. I designed a disaster communication plan for my HOA that utilizes FRS and it is used in parallel with the community's Part 90 repeater system that I designed, installed, and can survive almost 2 weeks without AC power.

The nice part about FRS is that the devices are limited by design for close-in communications. I avoided all of the GMRS channels and we have just enough to go around for all of the subdivisions and we don't have to compete with some of the commercial GMRS systems that are grandfathered in.

We have tested the program and it works as advertised. So don't write off a 20 dollar .5 watt radio just because it doesn't talk all the way across town.

Oh and I have seen amateur radio fail and public safety survive first hand in an adjacent county after a hurricane, so don't think that it is a perfect solution because it isn't.

Just say NO to amateur radio encryption because it is just not needed and for those that haven't posted, you only have 5 more days.

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017454970

Mark

I saw someone suggest using FRS for emergency communications. Just what do you people NOT get on this issue???

Encryption is a winner on the ham bands because as I said in another thread, "when all else fails". This is not an ARRL creed, it is an amateur wide DIRECTIVE.

Absolutely none of you understand what is going on here and yet you want to comment like this is tragedy.

Encryption on Ham Radio would be a blessing when those times that OTHER forms of communication won't allow encryption due to power outages and other maladies.

There will be times when YOU as an amateur, have to deal with a family crisis and i'm sure you don't want to broadcast info in the clear regarding your family.

And the thing that is SOOO darn funny is you people petition the FCC to stop encryption on Amateur bands but yet you won't petition the FCC to stop encryption on police, fire and other radios. THAT is really sad.

Amateur Radio is a fraternity of ADULTS and KIDS that have gotten their licenses and yet I see nearly 85% of this board bickering with each other, banning people for stupid reasons.

Listen, this is a public board, the mods here don't own this, Lindsay does. I think there needs to be a better way to run this board without all this childish crap that is going on here daily.

Dan got chewed out by Wayne for spelling errors??? Come on people, wake up. this board needs everybody to grow up and act responsibly toward each other. and Mods, if there is something you don't agree with, give a verbal or written warning and get rid of this stupid infraction system.

Radio as a whole needs to be back in the PUBLIC's hands, not some government big wig who thinks that we suck and don't need to know everything that goes on.

and this goes for the radio manufactuers as well. They need to stop forcing these expensive radio systems down the taxpayer's throats, because we are the ones who ultimately pay the price for them.

Think about what I said and have a nice Fourth of July and stay safe.

Alex Mahoney

 

[PJH]

Many words

So, ham radio - in general - had its start say around 1909 (earlier radio forms of communications was prior to this, but the 1909 date is pretty decent).

Since 1909, we have had:

-Two major World Wars
-Major regional conflicts
-The rise of the Eastern Bloc
-The Cold War (height of national security for many years thus far)
-KGB/CIA/FBI games
-Cuban Missle Crisis
-Northridge Earthquake
-Two major northeast blackouts
-Tebow
-Gary Powers
-Space Program
-Several major tsunami's
-Mt St Helens
and the Back Street Boys

At what part of these major world and regional incidents did the ham radio community really need encyption to get help and/or pass health and welfare messages that the badguys really shouldn't hear?

 

[KF4ZMB]

I saw someone suggest using FRS for emergency communications. Just what do you people NOT get on this issue???

Encryption is a winner on the ham bands because as I said in another thread, "when all else fails". This is not an ARRL creed, it is an amateur wide DIRECTIVE.

Absolutely none of you understand what is going on here and yet you want to comment like this is tragedy.

Encryption on Ham Radio would be a blessing when those times that OTHER forms of communication won't allow encryption due to power outages and other maladies.

There will be times when YOU as an amateur, have to deal with a family crisis and i'm sure you don't want to broadcast info in the clear regarding your family.

And the thing that is SOOO darn funny is you people petition the FCC to stop encryption on Amateur bands but yet you won't petition the FCC to stop encryption on police, fire and other radios. THAT is really sad.

Amateur Radio is a fraternity of ADULTS and KIDS that have gotten their licenses and yet I see nearly 85% of this board bickering with each other, banning people for stupid reasons.

Listen, this is a public board, the mods here don't own this, Lindsay does. I think there needs to be a better way to run this board without all this childish crap that is going on here daily.

Dan got chewed out by Wayne for spelling errors??? Come on people, wake up. this board needs everybody to grow up and act responsibly toward each other. and Mods, if there is something you don't agree with, give a verbal or written warning and get rid of this stupid infraction system.

Radio as a whole needs to be back in the PUBLIC's hands, not some government big wig who thinks that we suck and don't need to know everything that goes on.

and this goes for the radio manufactuers as well. They need to stop forcing these expensive radio systems down the taxpayer's throats, because we are the ones who ultimately pay the price for them.

Think about what I said and have a nice Fourth of July and stay safe.

Alex Mahoney

No one has even proposed that "family emergencies" would be allowed under a rule change IF it occurred. The proposal to the FCC deals with emergency communications and training for emergency situations of a governmental assistance nature. Not ham specific, or family specific, "emergencies". Not to mention that if an emergency is bad enough with my family that I need to use ham radio for it then I don't really care who all hears about it. In fact, if I am using it to "hail" help then I want as many people, amateur radio operators or otherwise, to be able to hear my transmission.

Also, this issue, on this board, has nothing to do with any other encryption issues, so of course we would not mention opposition to encryption on other bands (and the few that have have been labeled "conspiracy theorists" by at least one other poster). Not that it your's or anyone else's business, but back when I lived in Orlando I did petition the Mayor and Police Chief NOT to switch Orlando Police Communications to an encrypted system because I personally believe that this type of thing can be, and is sometimes, abused by governments. I was not the only one who did this either. I am at a loss as to how you or anyone, after reading responses on this board, are supposed to know what every poster has or has not done in the past.

I am at a loss as to how you can come in telling everyone else what they have done wrong with an air of inflated superiority, and then, with a straight face, accuse those who are contributing to the debate as being "bickering children". There has been some bickering on this topic, but very little compared to most topics that are controversial on most other boards on the internet.

The when "all else fails" approach just does not hold water in 2013. Sorry, not trying to be rude, but it doesn't. IF every other system in place to pass sensitive governmental information failed (and that is what the proposal is all about) then it is HIGHLY likely that amateur radio would also fail.

Christian KF4ZMB

 

[SCPD]

Petitioning the FCC regarding encryption on public safety frequencies is not possible. I've not seen or heard of the opportunity to do so.

Absolutely none of you understand what is going on here and yet you want to comment like this is tragedy.

This is a broad sweeping statement and you haven't provided any data to support it. I would enjoy seeing your reasons for saying it. Unfortunately, by making this statement you are setting yourself up to be the only person on this thread who understands the situation while everyone else is making comments out of ignorance and alarm that you term as "crying." You are venturing into "ad hominem" argument and that is never productive.

I would enjoy a point by point discussion of this proposal before the FCC using factual information and with not one statement belittling those with concerns.

**EDIT** Remember that our moderators are volunteers and most have been members here for an extended period of years. Wayne has contributed more hours to this site than I can count. Joining into this discussion with less than 12 posts and criticizing him is not appropriate.

 

[KF4ZMB]

So, ham radio - in general - had its start say around 1909 (earlier radio forms of communications was prior to this, but the 1909 date is pretty decent).

Since 1909, we have had:

-Two major World Wars
-Major regional conflicts
-The rise of the Eastern Bloc
-The Cold War (height of national security for many years thus far)
-KGB/CIA/FBI games
-Cuban Missle Crisis
-Northridge Earthquake
-Two major northeast blackouts
-Tebow
-Gary Powers
-Space Program
-Several major tsunami's
-Mt St Helens
and the Back Street Boys

At what part of these major world and regional incidents did the ham radio community really need encyption to get help and/or pass health and welfare messages that the badguys really shouldn't hear?

Agreed! Of course, you know there could be a worse case scenario ... We have become so afraid, apparently, in this country of the ever present "big disaster" just waiting around the corner to tackle us, take away our life, and maybe even kill our pets. We all have to be "prepared" for this or that. How in the name of all that is good did the people of the United States survive the Cuban Missle Crisis without encrypted ham systems "waiting in the wings". How have ARES volunteers been able to do their work this long without encrypted systems? Carrier pigeon? Maybe even better, how did hams use phone patches and the like to call family without encryption? People might have listened in! I am making fun, and I know I shouldn't, but rants from people like the rant you responded to above always come back to one thing it seems ... they have no problem broadcasting their views for the world to hear and see, but they have issues with hearing opposing views. It can make you mad sure, but to me it is always very sad. I say that because it is sad to think of how hard life must be having to allows equate differences of opinion with things like "bickering children" or being so insecure of one's own views that everyone else's views threaten you.

Christian KF4ZMB