FCC Opens Rulemaking to Allow Encryption in Amateur Radio Service

[PJH]

First off "when all else fails" means that when police, fire and other radio and comm systems fail, Amateur radio is there to be used.

Must be thinking of all this high tech means of communications and "State of good repair" on the ham side...

 

[zz0468]

Must be thinking of all this high tech means of communications and "State of good repair" on the ham side...

Have you shared those photos with Hamsexy?

 

[PJH]

Nope, but there are plenty of examples over the years there.

I wish it was hard to find this stuff, but its not.

When I can did up some photo's when I get back home, I could prob show was redundant communcaitions looks like. Haven't had a failure yet.

This is why you have a decent PM budget...so you don't have to worry about one thing taking down many.

When certain hams think that two mobile radios in a cabinet interfaced with a RICK on top of a cabinet is "emergency communications", then I'll keep pointing out the many bad examples out there.

Now, that being said, there are some individuals and groups out there that do very well done installs, maintain regional radios/links and do a damn fine job of it...however those are far and few.

 

[alexmahoney]

That's because of it's ability to quickly assemble itself into an ad-hoc network that is frequency agile, multi-mode capable, and mostly independent of specific makes and models of equipment.

Trying to create a duplicate of a public safety service with things like encryption would greatly reduce that ability, and restrict it to only those who have obtained specific equipment, and had it loaded with a specific encryption key. There may be rare instances where that's exactly what's needed, but it's not likely to change the shape of amateur emergency communications anytime soon.

Only if you don't know what you are doing. an encrypted net should be between an EOC and a hospital via Ham radio, That is what i can see. As far as general Encryption goes in Amateur Radio, it might be wise to mention that Hams do have access to modern radios that carry encryption so I do not see why encryption should not be allowed.

 

[alexmahoney]

Must be thinking of all this high tech means of communications and "State of good repair" on the ham side...

now this is in a state of disarray. a more modern setup would be the one below it with the Gent in the picture

 

[alexmahoney]

I do, believe it or not, understand what "when all else fails" means. I also have a valid response that, in 2013, it is highly unlikely that all public safety communications systems would fail and amateur radio alone among all other redudant systems the public safety groups have in place would remain functional, and that furthermore if this did happen there would be a lot bigger things to worry about than if this or that tramission was encrypted. That is the issue at hand with regards to whether or not ham radio should be encrypted for emergencies. I have been an amateur radio operator since 1998 and have worked for more than one EOC and/or 911 Center. ALL of which had plans in place to use ARES/Hams if needed. NONE of which would have ever considered using ham radio to pass sensitive information. I can only speak for the agencies I have worked with or am familiar with, but that is really all any of us can do.

Honestly, and this is not meant rude to you or anyone else, I don't need to base my opinions, or views, off of any google search, for anything, period. I never said you were lying. You probably believe this to be true. The point I made was that it was a little hypocritical to come in with an accusatory tone with which to call others out for being, what you view as, accusatory. That assessment still stands in my view.

I never said Wayne was helpful, not helpful, or just there. That was another poster, so I am not sure why this was addressed to me.

You did not say that "some" of us did not want it in police radios but refused to make our voices heard. You said that none of us had made our voices heard about concerns over encryption on police radios. I pointed out that I had. I am sure others have also. Orlando, like it or not, is in the back pocket of the theme park industry. That is the reason they are encrypted, I believe. When crime was on the rise on I-Drive and Orange County Sector 6 (the sector that covers Disney World) this could look bad for tourists, so the radio needed to be encrypted. I am not saying this was the only reason, but those familiar with Central Florida politics will agree this played a role. So, no matter how many of us complained about them going encrypted (including other agencies and dispatch centers who did business with them) Orlando PD still went encrypted and Orange County Sheriff's Office has followed suit. I am sure the same is true in other parts of the US. It is unfair to assert that we as amateurs have not done enough to stop that encryption, BUT at the same time we should not fight encryption on ham frequencies. Whether or not amateur radio goes encrypted for ARES type purposes I doubt that many radio administrators of encrypted public safety agencies are going to allow hams with encrypted radios to monitor what is going on daily. Therefore, they will still won't know what police agencies are doing. Be that as it may, again, this thread was about encryption on amateur radios for use in emergencies. Not encryption on police radios, nor even allowing hams to monitor encrypted police comms.

I also know police departments that appreciate public help. Again I do not see how this applies in this case. On one side you seem to be saying encryption must come to ham radio, and the other side you are talking about how bad encryption is.

I never said scanner apps are a problem nor will I ever. I always, as a dispatcher, appreciated the public providing help. Again I do not know why this was addressed to me.

Again I ask, because of your last line, do you want to stop encryption or allow it? I want to stop it from coming to ham radio, and I said so here because that's what this thread was about. I also do not believe it belongs on public safety radios in most cases, but that is a discussion for another thread.

Christian KF4ZMB

Christian, it is wise to quote an old saying here, "never say never"

You can't possibly say that radio systems won't fail because in reality, they have, even the p25 systems.

I would rather see encryption on amateur radio as a back up then not have a back up at all.

 

[szron]

Only if you don't know what you are doing. an encrypted net should be between an EOC and a hospital via Ham radio, That is what i can see. As far as general Encryption goes in Amateur Radio, it might be wise to mention that Hams do have access to modern radios that carry encryption so I do not see why encryption should not be allowed.

17 pages in the thread and some still don't get it.

There is no point to encrypting Hospital comms.

HIPPA doesn't require it.

Hospitals and local Med controls don't do it even though in a lot of areas it would be as simple as programing radio to operate in encrypted mode because infrastructure is already digital.

Stop jamming something that nobody wants into people's throats.

//edit

@UP

I would rather see encryption on amateur radio as a back up then not have a back up at all.

What for?!

 

[PJH]

The problem is that most setups are in example #1. #2 is actually the exception.

now this is in a state of disarray. a more modern setup would be the one below it with the Gent in the picture

 

[N8OHU]

The problem is that most setups are in example #1. #2 is actually the exception.

Home setups, probably; most committed Emergency communication responders have go kits that have everything but the antennas they will be using in one easily carried box for operation at the location they will be operating from. The next time we bring out the local trailer (the one the club here built with its own money, mind you), I'll see if I can get some pictures that show just how cleanly everything is connected.

 

[zz0468]

Only if you don't know what you are doing.

That part is easily managed, on a limited scale.

an encrypted net should be between an EOC and a hospital via Ham radio, That is what i can see.

What is the benefit vs. the cost and additional complexity?

As far as general Encryption goes in Amateur Radio, it might be wise to mention that Hams do have access to modern radios that carry encryption so I do not see why encryption should not be allowed.

Hams are notoriously cheap. While encryption capable radios are available for those who want tot pay for them, many hams involved in ARES and similar services are retired and on limited budgets. You should hear the squabbling that takes place about putting a simple PL decoder on their favorite 2 meter repeater.

 

[N8OHU]

Hams are notoriously cheap. While encryption capable radios are available for those who want tot pay for them, many hams involved in ARES and similar services are retired and on limited budgets. You should hear the squabbling that takes place about putting a simple PL decoder on their favorite 2 meter repeater.

Then the served agency should provide the radios for use during training and an actual event; if the ARES group has a place to store them (the one I am a member of does), they should be locked in a storage cabinet that only the served agency has a key to. As for the PL decoder, why haven't they updated to a newer repeater controller that has that capability built in?

 

[gadepp]

Another clueless request

I am not sure when the last time any real emergency traffic was passed via amateur radio but I am sure there was no need for encryption to be used. The biggest issue is many think they are doing something special and are trying to make it out bigger than it is. Why would there be anything transmitted over the radio needing encryption? If the concern is jamming then that can still occur with the use of encryption. Most use of encryption is law enforcement and the purpose is to stop those they are after from getting that info.

 

[fgrouell]

Maybe

Maybe we could agree to code the data and not encrypt the signals ?????

 

[zz0468]

Then the served agency should provide the radios for use during training and an actual event; if the ARES group has a place to store them (the one I am a member of does), they should be locked in a storage cabinet that only the served agency has a key to.

I suppose if there's enough money to go around for stuff like that...

But keeping it under lock and key, wouldn't that defeat the ability to get on the air quickly when needed? It starts to sound like all sorts of protections and controls have to be in place to use encryption on ham radio, and that defeats ham radio's advantage.

As for the PL decoder, why haven't they updated to a newer repeater controller that has that capability built in?

The problem isn't installing PL on the repeater, it's installing encoders on all the cheap old hams who won't buy newer radios.

 

[N8OHU]

I am not sure when the last time any real emergency traffic was passed via amateur radio but I am sure there was no need for encryption to be used. The biggest issue is many think they are doing something special and are trying to make it out bigger than it is. Why would there be anything transmitted over the radio needing encryption? If the concern is jamming then that can still occur with the use of encryption. Most use of encryption is law enforcement and the purpose is to stop those they are after from getting that info.

I imagine there was such traffic when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma, and in areas affected by Hurricane Sand last fall (I actually have had correspondence with one of the ARES Emergency Coordinators that was in Connecticut at the time of Sandy), so there are two recent examples; no encrypted communication were used that I know of in either, mainly because such capabilities weren't available to the hams providing the emergency communications there. As for why encryption would be needed, if the stated reasons that I've seen aren't good enough for you, I don't know what would be, though the last part of your post gives a good clue, but not in the same manner as you're thinking.

 

[PJH]

In one of my first professional public safety jobs, we have a four site, voted receive VHF conventional system. We used leased lines from the satelite sites - 100 watt main transmitter, 50 watt mobile radios covering approx 45 sq miles of mostly open terrian with one part of town behind a "Hill" which was also covered by its one receive site.

Many times, ENC never worked too well due to some distances involved. Equipment was in excellent shape.

What makes you think that ENC equipment put together with a rats next of ham equipment and less than steller PM work will allow hams to have any real coverage without losnig the sync/frame rates required by ENC to maintain the data rate to recover the audio?

To cover a wide area of coverage, you need repeaters. Secure capable repeaters needs its own hardware to resync the signal so it doesn't come out unrecoverable on the output.

This is why they cost $20,000 to buy new.

Yes you can get Transcrypt boards for a few non-secure repeaters, but now your modifing every radio with a board to do so...any they are only available on select commerical radios.

Your not going to fit those modules in most ham radios.

So now we are back to the expensive radios that were built for it...

Why does no one not see the actual technical limitiations on this with the ham gear?

 

[Chris45]

Not a Good Idea!

This would be a horrendous mistake that contradicts the intent of amateur radio. Amateur radio is for everyone that is lawfully licensed to participate in it, and it is not intended to be restricted to a privileged few as encryption would certainly do. It should be obvious why encryption is not allowed in emergency amateur radio communications. It should also be clear why encryption would do more harm than good in amateur communications. Hams that are not regularly involved in emergency services would be deprived of their licensed right to contribute amateur radio services and responsibilities. Encrypted equipment would eliminate legitimate open-air calls for assistance and the transmission of emergency information. It is “all-around bad news”. Remember, an emergency call is a priority than must not be intentionally blocked, or let alone ignored. If there is an encryption need during an emergency being assisted Hams, please let the police and fire emergency responders manage it. That is where it belongs, and not on our airways.

 

[N8OHU]

In one of my first professional public safety jobs, we have a four site, voted receive VHF conventional system. We used leased lines from the satelite sites - 100 watt main transmitter, 50 watt mobile radios covering approx 45 sq miles of mostly open terrian with one part of town behind a "Hill" which was also covered by its one receive site.

Many times, ENC never worked too well due to some distances involved. Equipment was in excellent shape.

What makes you think that ENC equipment put together with a rats next of ham equipment and less than steller PM work will allow hams to have any real coverage without losnig the sync/frame rates required by ENC to maintain the data rate to recover the audio?

To cover a wide area of coverage, you need repeaters. Secure capable repeaters needs its own hardware to resync the signal so it doesn't come out unrecoverable on the output.

This is why they cost $20,000 to buy new.

Yes you can get Transcrypt boards for a few non-secure repeaters, but now your modifing every radio with a board to do so...any they are only available on select commerical radios.

Your not going to fit those modules in most ham radios.

So now we are back to the expensive radios that were built for it...

Why does no one not see the actual technical limitiations on this with the ham gear?

Because we aren't going to need or want wide area coverage for encrypted voice, for one thing. I darn sure wouldn't expect to try to cover 45 sq miles of open terrain when a portable repeater is available for an operation (the ARES group I'm a member of has one in our trailer). As far as other encrypted content, the RF path doesn't need encryption, just the message to be passed will; that should be done by the people handing me the message to be sent, in my opinion.

 

[alexmahoney]

That part is easily managed, on a limited scale.



What is the benefit vs. the cost and additional complexity?



Hams are notoriously cheap. While encryption capable radios are available for those who want tot pay for them, many hams involved in ARES and similar services are retired and on limited budgets. You should hear the squabbling that takes place about putting a simple PL decoder on their favorite 2 meter repeater.

ARES is being misused here in this thread quite alot. I have seen and heard some hams that are outside of ARES working with local EOC's during drills and what nots. ARES is good and the primary group besides the EOC, but what's behind ARES and EOC's????

 

[alexmahoney]

This would be a horrendous mistake that contradicts the intent of amateur radio. Amateur radio is for everyone that is lawfully licensed to participate in it, and it is not intended to be restricted to a privileged few as encryption would certainly do. It should be obvious why encryption is not allowed in emergency amateur radio communications. It should also be clear why encryption would do more harm than good in amateur communications. Hams that are not regularly involved in emergency services would be deprived of their licensed right to contribute amateur radio services and responsibilities. Encrypted equipment would eliminate legitimate open-air calls for assistance and the transmission of emergency information. It is “all-around bad news”. Remember, an emergency call is a priority than must not be intentionally blocked, or let alone ignored. If there is an encryption need during an emergency being assisted Hams, please let the police and fire emergency responders manage it. That is where it belongs, and not on our airways.

Your post is a 100% PRIME example of why some of us have said encryption in amateur bands is misunderstood.

Hams would not be hindered in any way if the encryption could be turned off or on by just ONE individual during an actual emergency, otherwise encryption would not be 24/7 like in the public safety realm.

and I have to ask again, particularly to you, what would the police do if their own radio system is down and there was no other alternative but HAMS???? Encryption could be used here big time.

You didn't get what i have been saying at all in my previous messages. Some of you still say use FRS or other forms. Listen, FRS is short range and low powered, GMRS is next up, but when SHTF, amateur radio is the best option when the cell phone towers are down, the police radio systems are down and there is no other form of communications but ham radio.

I don't think the DOJ realizes what advantages Ham radio operations can do to help them when SHTF. That's why we need to speak up and make our voices heard in the scanner and amateur radio industries so that we can be able to hear what is going on around us.

Edit: I am done in this thread.