FCC Opens Rulemaking to Allow Encryption in Amateur Radio Service

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rdale

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I know you're just joking, but in case that flew over anyone's head, here is why his examples don't apply...

This is for emergencies only. No repeaters will be full time encrypted. You can't turn on encryption just so you can use cuss words. No clubs will require payment in order to get the emergency use only encryption code.

So far I've pointed out the good, and nobody has pointed out any bad. Anyone?
 

WB4CS

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I know you're just joking, but in case that flew over anyone's head, here is why his examples don't apply...

This is for emergencies only. No repeaters will be full time encrypted. You can't turn on encryption just so you can use cuss words. No clubs will require payment in order to get the emergency use only encryption code.

So far I've pointed out the good, and nobody has pointed out any bad. Anyone?

Yeah, because ALL ham radio operators and repeater owners follow the rules ALL of the time. No one EVER breaks the rules in Amateur Radio.

Please! If this passes, and you believe that encryption will only be used for emergencies, then I've got some left handed screw drivers I will sell you for really cheap.
 

rdale

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Not sure I understand... If they have radios modified to do encryption already (as some in this thread already claim) -- you're saying they aren't using it illegally now, but will if the FCC allows it for emergencies?

Not moving forward because someone might break the new rules is not a good reason to stay stagnant. The more ways ham comms can stay relevant and useful, the better it is for all in my opinion.
 

WB4CS

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Not sure I understand... If they have radios modified to do encryption already (as some in this thread already claim) -- you're saying they aren't using it illegally now, but will if the FCC allows it for emergencies?

I will agree with you there. I'm sure it does happen right now illegally. My point is, if encryption is allowed how would anyone know if the traffic that's encrypted is for emergency purposes or being abused?

Not moving forward because someone might break the new rules is not a good reason to stay stagnant. The more ways ham comms can stay relevant and useful, the better it is for all in my opinion.

Encryption in ham radio is not moving forward. First as someone earlier posted, read the actual HIPPA rules. Encryption is not needed for any kind of ham radio emcom traffic. Amateur Radio should be all inclusive. If this passes only people with radios that are capable of encryption will be able to participate in these hypothetical emergencies.
 

gewecke

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The advantages are many... For starters, if primary comms for emergency managers are down, they can use the ham bands to pass messages along without media or scanner listeners getting it (wrong) and passing along to the public.

Yeah, like amateur radio is really the place for that kind of traffic? IF their primary comm asset is that unreliable to begin with, then using encryption on OUR bands is not going fix that problem, nor will it be welcome if I'm on the air! They can keep their dick tracy toys where they belong, guess where that is?:evil:

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n9zas
 

gewecke

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Yeah, because ALL ham radio operators and repeater owners follow the rules ALL of the time. No one EVER breaks the rules in Amateur Radio.

Please! If this passes, and you believe that encryption will only be used for emergencies, then I've got some left handed screw drivers I will sell you for really cheap.

Agreed! Allowing encryption is very naive thinking!

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n9zas
 

rdale

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Guess that's the mindset of being prepared versus being unprepared. I'd rather see all options available, than cut one out because "that's not the way we've always done it."
 

rdale

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And this has nothing to do with HIPPA. In an emergency that doesn't apply anyways so I'm not sure who brought that up or why. There are things in an emergency that emergency managers and public safety officials don't want everyone to know.
 

gewecke

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And this has nothing to do with HIPPA. In an emergency that doesn't apply anyways so I'm not sure who brought that up or why. There are things in an emergency that emergency managers and public safety officials don't want everyone to know.

That's exactly why those comms need to be redirected onto hardlines, cells, or secured dedicated repeaters for such traffic NOT hijacking amateur radio repeaters for encomm or ares or fema hobnobbing!!

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n9zas
 

WB4CS

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That's exactly why those comms need to be redirected onto hardlines, cells, or secured dedicated repeaters for such traffic NOT hijacking amateur radio repeaters for encomm or ares or fema hobnobbing!!

73,
n9zas

Exactly!

We are there to assist and relay radio traffic as needed, not replace a public safety radio system. There is nothing that would be relayed through amateur radio that needs encrypted. Nothing. We are not running people's drivers license info, we are not asking dispatch is there are warrants out for someone, we are not reading out Social Security Numbers.

rdale said:
There are things in an emergency that emergency managers and public safety officials don't want everyone to know.

Why would amateur radio be used to pass this traffic, rdale? Exactly what traffic during an emergency would need to be encrypted? What benefit does this have to amateur radio, and how does it help move this hobby forward?
 
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rdale

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Why would amateur radio be used to pass this traffic, rdale? Exactly what traffic during an emergency would need to be encrypted? What benefit does this have to amateur radio, and how does it help move this hobby forward?

Most comms behind the scenes in an emergency are not for public consumption. They will not be transmitted on any open radio frequency, let alone ham. If all else fails, this makes sense to me as a backup method.

It moves the hobby forward by adding more value to the disaster community. The more venues hams can be of value, the better off we all are IMO.

Again, I've yet to hear a "bad" reason given. I see why people wouldn't do it themselves but that's different.
 

WB4CS

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Most comms behind the scenes in an emergency are not for public consumption. They will not be transmitted on any open radio frequency, let alone ham. If all else fails, this makes sense to me as a backup method.

I don't understand. Exactly what communications are you meaning? Any communications that delicate would not be on the ham bands anyway, even as a backup method.

Again, I've yet to hear a "bad" reason given. I see why people wouldn't do it themselves but that's different.

I think I gave some compelling examples in my first post in this thread. Also, as said before, there is no emergency traffic that ham radio would be used for that would need encryption.

Several examples have been given as to why it's a bad idea. You've yet to give any specific examples of why it is a good idea, other than because of some secretive and sensitive data that the public doesn't need to know about. So, again, I ask you... what is this data and why would it even be transmitted on amateur radio bands?
 

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The advantages are many... For starters, if primary comms for emergency managers are down, they can use the ham bands to pass messages along without media or scanner listeners getting it (wrong) and passing along to the public.

While I certainly understand the point you are trying to make, I think that having encryption (especially during these scenarios) will cause more confusion than good. Looking at this from a very realistic perspective, what are the chances that ENCRYPTED Ham radio comms will actually be needed? I’m not saying that Ham comms are not needed, I’m specifically talking about encrypted comms. I am a Ham and have been involved in communications for many years. In the past couple of decades, I’ve only seen a handful of events where complete systems where inoperative. An example was hurricane Andrew back in 1992 when Miami lost most of the Miami-Dade’s Police VHF system. Encrypted comms then would have made no difference.

Now, I’m only speaking from my experience here in South Florida and YMMV in other places, but there are so many public safety systems in any specific area that a redundancy infrastructure is almost always in place. Most state governments have portable sites that can be deployed if primary systems are down, not to mention FEMA and other federal partners. Besides, if primary systems are down, that is usually the result of some kind of catastrophe, i.e. hurricane, tornado, etc. If that is the case, the primary responsibility of a PS agency is rescue/recovery and primary law enforcement response. Would you really need encryption in these scenarios?
 

rdale

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There are still many parts the US which don't have fully redundant comm systems. And it's a backup for emergency use only, as you'll note more and more agencies are encrypting just their routine daily stuff.
 

WB4CS

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There are still many parts the US which don't have fully redundant comm systems.

Even still, what communications would be passed on the amateur radio bands that require encryption that the "public shouldn't be aware of."???

And it's a backup for emergency use only, as you'll note more and more agencies are encrypting just their routine daily stuff.

How does public service agencies communication systems routine daily stuff being encrypted have anything to do with amateur radio?

I'm still requesting a response from my last post... You've yet to give any specific examples of why it is a good idea, other than because of some secretive and sensitive data that the public doesn't need to know about. So, again, I ask you... what is this data and why would it even be transmitted on amateur radio bands?

At this point I'm not trying to be argumentative or personally insult you. I'm honestly curious about what this radio traffic is that the public shouldn't know about that would be on the amateur bands. I'm actually interested to know of some examples.
 
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rdale

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If all other methods go down, I figure encrypted ham would be a good backup. Not sure how else to explain it to you.
 

WB4CS

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If all other methods go down, I figure encrypted ham would be a good backup. Not sure how else to explain it to you.

Okay, let's try it from this approach.

I totally get what you're saying that if every public service system and it's redundant system went down, and telephone and cellular systems were down, that amateur radio could be used as a backup. This we agree on.

My first question has been... What kind of communications would need to be encrypted on the amateur bands? You mentioned communications that the public shouldn't be aware of, but never specified what that meant.

My second question has been... Of the above mentioned types of communications that would need to be encrypted, even if amateur radio was being used as a backup communication system, why would such sensitive information be passed by amateur radio operators? Wouldn't public safety officials use their own communications contingency plan to communicate such sensitive information instead of trusting the information to a amateur radio operator that's (probably) not in any way associated with the public service agency?

This is where the confusion is. Exactly what type of emergency communications would need to be encrypted?
 

rdale

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My office has hams that have been vetted and approved who man the EOC during a disaster. The state's EOC is the same way. We would have no problem using them for confidential chatter if that was the only way left to communicate.
 

WB4CS

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My office has hams that have been vetted and approved who man the EOC during a disaster. The state's EOC is the same way. We would have no problem using them for confidential chatter if that was the only way left to communicate.

Agreed, my county does that too.

I will ask the question again.... what confidential chatter would need to be encrypted?

And another thought, I am licensed just like your EOC guys. Why are those of us without the encryption key not allowed to participate or hear this chatter? We're all amateur radio operators who have a duty to help out during disasters.

But, I'd rather have an answer to my first question than the one above.
 
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