FCC Opens Rulemaking to Allow Encryption in Amateur Radio Service

[rdale]

Early damage assessments, casualty counts, supply cache locations, special tactics team status, etc. Plenty of emergency stuff is confidential.

 

[N4DES]

So this NPRM allows the capability of secure communications and begins the take away one of the last truly interoperable areas of the spectrum by allowing those certain hams with high dollar toys to really flex and show off their capabilities to the masses?

Really now?? And yes while I have one of those high dollar toys (APX7000) I have no interest in operating in the secure mode on the amateur spectrum. It is bad enough that our digital capabilities have become so fragmented, with at least three (3) different protocols that are not interoperable, we must all fall back to analog to communicate with each other.

 

[N4DES]

Early damage assessments, casualty counts, supply cache locations, special tactics team status, etc. Plenty of emergency stuff is confidential.

Oh please....

 

[rdale]

Oh please....

Not quite sure I understand... Translation?

 

[WB4CS]

Early damage assessments, casualty counts, supply cache locations, special tactics team status, etc. Plenty of emergency stuff is confidential.

None of that should or would go out over amateur radio. And even if it did, I don't believe that's considered confidential. Otherwise, every public service police department radio system is giving out confidential information. Yeah, I agree with KS4VT, "oh please!"

Okay, let's change gears here for a second... I have another question if you'll please answer for me...
It's a pretty sure bet that if every PS Com system and their backups are down, then probably the amateur radio repeaters are offline as well. EVERY SINGLE public service radio has the ability to go to a direct talk-around channel on simplex when the system is down. Why wouldn't these agencies use their own simplex frequencies to give out this confidential information? Why would they have to switch to encrypted simplex on the amateur radio bands?

 

[rdale]

I think you're confusing police/fire and emergency management.

I'm writing my comment to submit to the FCC. I imagine most here are not I'll leave it at that.

 

[WB4CS]

I think you're confusing police/fire and emergency management.

I'm writing my comment to submit to the FCC. I imagine most here are not I'll leave it at that.

And no offense, but I think you're confusing Emergency Management and Amateur Radio.

I agree, this conversation is going no where so "I'll leave it at that." But it would have been nice if you'd at least have answered my question above about going direct simplex on Part 90 instead of Part 97. Oh well.

 

[MTS2000des]

I know you're just joking, but in case that flew over anyone's head, here is why his examples don't apply...

This is for emergencies only. No repeaters will be full time encrypted. You can't turn on encryption just so you can use cuss words. No clubs will require payment in order to get the emergency use only encryption code.

So far I've pointed out the good, and nobody has pointed out any bad. Anyone?

So who decides or declares what an "emergency" is?
This is the problem, the amateur radio service by nature is to promote open communications.

Encryption hinders interagency interoperability.

It has no place in the amateur radio service.

RACES, however, is another radio service, and if the FCC would recognize this and promote RACES which is amateur radio by and for government use, it has it's own rules. The governments are limited on how they can use RACES, so this would put the brakes on Randy Rescue whacker types who want to play secret squirrel with their Ebay Astro Sabers and their ancient DES-XL modules on part 97, where it has no place- just by declaring an "emergency" (what is that...Krispy Kreme is out of donuts so they have to run code to the next county?) to justify their whacking.

As far as "in an emergency", if your gov't agency can afford encrypted radios (which would all be part 90 gear anyway), why not build out your backup part 90 system to be more reliable, robust and ready versus insisting on some absurd rule change that has nothing to do with the basis and purpose of the amateur radio service? Your argument about EOC's needing encryption because they pass sensitive traffic just reinforces why they should be investing in part 90 infrastructure and not relying on a bunch of outsider ham guys to come in and save the day with their 15 year old Astro radios and DES-XL. It's just plain laughable.

or do you just want to play storm whacker so no one can hear you, make fun of you, and post it to YouTube/Hamsexy?

There is no place for encryption in the amateur radio service. Want to play secret squirrel? Go to part 90 and have fun.

We know what this is when we see it. Whackerism plain and simple. A small group of elitists want to turn the amateur radio service into the Randy Rescue emergency communications service. And it ain't gonna fly, not on a national level but an international one as well.

 

[jparks29]

It's simple.

Encryption is already allowed on amateur freqs.

The rules say that you can't do anything intended to obscure or hide the message. If you give out your key PUBLICLY, you're not hiding anything. It's not my responsibility to make sure everyone has the same equipment I do. Same goes for any digital mode, you gonna say I'm intentionally obscuring my transmission by using D-star or P25 CAI?

So, use a standardized, non-proprietary encryption, and publish your key. You're abiding by the rules.

 

[rdale]

So if this rule is RACES-only, you'd support! Good call, I'll add that in my comment. Thanks for the thought.

 

[WB4CS]

So, use a standardized, non-proprietary encryption, and publish your key. You're abiding by the rules.

There's one huge gaping flaw in this logic. If the encryption key is published for anyone to publicly view and use, then what is the point of the encryption in the first place?!

It's like people at work who leave their computer password taped to their monitor. Why even bother to password your computer?

Wow.

Secondly, D-STAR is not encryption. It or any other digital mode doesn't require obtaining a key that can be hidden. Anyone can buy a D-STAR radio and use D-STAR repeaters. Anyone can buy a P25 capable radio and use P25. Anyone can buy digital hardware and software and run digi modes. However, someone publishing an encryption key is up to them to whether or not they publish it. And if you don't know who the parties are that's encrypted, how are you going to find out how to contact them to get the key?

 

[N4DES]

I think you're confusing police/fire and emergency management.

I'm writing my comment to submit to the FCC. I imagine most here are not I'll leave it at that.

I'm up to 2 pages already and dead set against it. If I have a need to go Ø I will be on Part 90.

 

[MTS2000des]

So if this rule is RACES-only, you'd support! Good call, I'll add that in my comment. Thanks for the thought.

RACES is not the amateur radio service.

 

[rdale]

So they can encrypt now?

 

[jparks29]

There's one huge gaping flaw in this logic. If the encryption key is published for anyone to publicly view and use, then what is the point of the encryption in the first place?!

Because I can publish it on facebook, OTA, wherever... Doesn't mean someone is paying attention, knows what it is, or even has the equipment/know-how to use it. I could publish it in a newspaper and, well, who reads newspapers these days? Even if I broadcast it right before switching, who's gonna run home, and reprogram their radio (IF they have the equipment/know-how), just to listen to a 30 second chat?

It's like people at work who leave their computer password taped to their monitor. Why even bother to password your computer?

Wow.

No, it's like publishing a manual on how to use your computer, and putting the password in the manual. No one reads manuals.

Secondly, D-STAR is not encryption. It or any other digital mode doesn't require obtaining a key that can be hidden. Anyone can buy a D-STAR radio and use D-STAR repeaters. Anyone can buy a P25 capable radio and use P25. Anyone can buy digital hardware and software and run digi modes. However, someone publishing an encryption key is up to them to whether or not they publish it. And if you don't know who the parties are that's encrypted, how are you going to find out how to contact them to get the key?

Anyone can buy an encryption capable radio and key it. Just as anyone can buy a D-star radio.

It's nothing more than 'programming'.......

What about /\/\TRBO and 'private' conversations? It's not encrypted, but doesn't allow any other radio to receive the audio in a digital conversation. Just a digital bit that says 'don't pass the audio to this radio'....

If I give all the information needed to program your radio to receive my message, and you either don't know how, or don't have the capability, it's not my fault. Nor am I 'hiding' anything, as I've given you all the information you need to successfully monitor.

Again, you completely missed the analogy.

If I have a P25 CAI radio, and you do too, but don't have the correct NAC or TID, am I to blame?

Hell, I'll simplify it even more. Let's say I have CTCSS set up on TX and RX, and you have the wrong tone set on your radio, AFTER I told you what it was, and you hear nothing. Am I to blame?

It's easy.

Public standard (DES/DES-OFB/AES) and public key = PUBLIC = not hidden/obscured.


As far as ARES goes, they man shelters, give health and welfare reports, pass comm traffic, etc. nothing that needs to be encrypted. If you have a critical message, request to move to an alternate freq. Who monitors 2m other than hams? You think criminals are listening to simplex communications during emergencies, waiting to hear when more blankets will arrive at the shelter, so they can be stolen? Get real.

 

[WB4CS]

So they can encrypt now?

Here's the FCC Rules for RACES:

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97.407 Radio amateur civil emergency service.​

(a) No station may transmit in RACES unless it is an FCC-licensed primary, club, or military recreation station and it is certified by a civil
defense organization as registered with that organization. No person may be the control operator of an amateur station transmitting in
RACES unless that person holds a FCC-issued amateur operator license and is certified by a civil defense organization as enrolled in
that organization.
(b) The frequency bands and segments and emissions authorized to the control operator are available to stations transmitting
communications in RACES on a shared basis with the amateur service. In the event of an emergency which necessitates invoking the
President's War Emergency Powers under the provisions of section 706 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, 47 U.S.C.
606, amateur stations participating in RACES may only transmit on the frequency segments authorized pursuant to part 214 of this
chapter.
(c) An amateur station registered with a civil defense organization may only communicate with the following stations upon authorization
of the responsible civil defense official for the organization with which the amateur station is registered:
(1) An amateur station registered with the same or another civil defense organization; and
(2) A station in a service regulated by the FCC whenever such communication is authorized by the FCC.
(d) All communications transmitted in RACES must be specifically authorized by the civil defense organization for the area served. Only
civil defense communications of the following types may be transmitted:
(1) Messages concerning impending or actual conditions jeopardizing the public safety, or affecting the national defense or security
during periods of local, regional, or national civil emergencies;
(2) Messages directly concerning the immediate safety of life of individuals, the immediate protection of property, maintenance of law
and order, alleviation of human suffering and need, and the combating of armed attack or sabotage;
(3) Messages directly concerning the accumulation and dissemination of public information or instructions to the civilian population
essential to the activities of the civil defense organization or other authorized governmental or relief agencies; and
(4) Communications for RACES training drills and tests necessary to ensure the establishment and maintenance of orderly and efficient
operation of the RACES as ordered by the responsible civil defense organization served. Such drills and tests may not exceed a total
time of 1 hour per week. With the approval of the chief officer for emergency planning in the applicable State, Commonwealth, District
or territory, however, such tests and drills may be conducted for a period not to exceed 72 hours no more than twice in any calendar​

year.

 

[lep]

The title of this thread is something of a misnomer. An individual has filed a request for a Rule Making. The FCC has published this request for a 30 day window to see if the public wants them to open a Rule Making process or not, after the 30 days are up the FCC will determine if the matter justifies being considered. The title suggests that has already happened, it has not. So far nothing at all has happened except that folks who don't follow FCC Rule Makings usually are getting themselves and their blood pressure pills a work out. A lot of not-well-thought-out ideas are published as Requests and don't see the light of day again (thank goodness).

 

[WB4CS]

Because I can publish it on facebook, OTA, wherever... Doesn't mean someone is paying attention, knows what it is, or even has the equipment/know-how to use it. I could publish it in a newspaper and, well, who reads newspapers these days? Even if I broadcast it right before switching, who's gonna run home, and reprogram their radio (IF they have the equipment/know-how), just to listen to a 30 second chat?

Okay, now how does that apply to the purpose of the Amateur Radio Service? Are we not a radio service that is to provide an open means of communication between all amateurs? How does encryption apply to that standard?

Furthermore, if you want 2-way radio communication that no one else can participate in why would you be on the amateur radio bands? There are other radio services (including cell phones) that provide that private means of communications.

Allowing encryption turns this hobby into a pay-to-play service. You wanna talk to my radio crew? You gotta have our encryption key which is posted on some random website. This rule change would allow for emergencies, but who decides what is an emergency? How long before it gets used to include all communications?

This paints an ugly picture of the future of this hobby. One that could become a closed off, private communication system between buddies that's not inclusive of new hams and does not encourage open communications. A hobby full of police-officer-wannabes that can do whatever they want on the air because no one can hear them.

No thanks.

 

[rdale]

Here's the FCC Rules for RACES:

So they can't, unless I'm missing it. Which is why I'm suggesting that.

 

[MTS2000des]

and from the standpoint of interoperability, which is shining point of the amateur radio service, encryption kills this. Creating walled gardens flies in the face of one of the very basis and purposes of our service on an international level: which is promoting international goodwill.

Use of codes and ciphers (ciphers=encryption) has been forbidden for a reason, it is so that our service is kept open, accessible to any licensee who has a desire to participate.

I welcome the use of amateur radio as a backup to a backup as a backup--but within the current rules, and the spirit of what the service is: a non-pecuniary personal radio service used worldwide. It is not, nor should NEVER, become a replacement on part of governments or anyone, for security sensitive or "OFO" (official use only) purposes, there are other radio service and spectrum for this, specifically PLMR part 90, NTIA sanctioned spectrum, etc.

Or allow this kind of crap to continue, and watch our ability to have fun, experiment with things, go quietly away.