Fed Lingo

[es93546]

Yeah, you're probably right, but I don't think 10-4 will ever go out of style.

I don't know about that. During my career with the U.S. Forest Service the agency stopped using 10 code back in the early 1980's as the ICS had specific direction not to use it. "10-4" became "copy." When I hear normal speech directly from people and in movies/TV I'm hearing people using "copy" very frequently. It seems that popular language has adopted the term for decidedly non-radio communications settings. I don't think "10-4" was ever as popular in everyday language. During the 1970's I think I heard it now and again, during the "CB radio craze," along with the very annoying "breaker, breaker, good buddy." Now, thank goodness, these things are as rare as a polyester suit.

 

[k7ng]

At least in the wildland fire community, "plain language" has been emphasized in fire comms training for a number of years. 'Brevity codes' as they are termed, are very strongly condemned. Jargon, of course, is an unavoidable aspect of a technical endeavor. Those who are new to monitoring wildland fire communications might be baffled, for instance, with the term 'SEAT Base'... (Single-Engine Air Tanker Base). Understanding the jargon comes quickly, however...

 

[KK4JUG]

I don't know about that. During my career with the U.S. Forest Service the agency stopped using 10 code back in the early 1980's as the ICS had specific direction not to use it. "10-4" became "copy." When I hear normal speech directly from people and in movies/TV I'm hearing people using "copy" very frequently. It seems that popular language has adopted the term for decidedly non-radio communications settings. I don't think "10-4" was ever as popular in everyday language. During the 1970's I think I heard it now and again, during the "CB radio craze," along with the very annoying "breaker, breaker, good buddy." Now, thank goodness, these things are as rare as a polyester suit.

One agency? That ain't much.

 

[Firefox10]

GOA = gone on arrival
DOA = dead on arrival

careful not to mix those up

 

[KK4JUG]

Several years ago, two detectives from a large city in Florida came to our city working on a homicide. I learned two new acronyms that I never had the guts to use on the radio:

FTD - Fixin' to die
DRT - Dead right there

Apparently these were frequently used back home.

 

[ecps92]

Paws up was my favorite

GOA = gone on arrival
DOA = dead on arrival

careful not to mix those up

 

[es93546]

One agency? That ain't much.

Do you mean one agency not using code is not significant? The same is true for all the fire agencies in the western U.S. at the federal, state and local levels. The only time I see ten codes associated with a fire department it is one that is located in the eastern U.S. I think the eastern fire departments being older, are steeped in some long practiced traditions. The Los Angeles PD has never used code, with the exception of labeling crimes with the CA Penal Code section, such as a 459 for burglary, 211 for robbery and 415 for a disturbance. They also use Code 3 for red lights and sirens, Code 6 for on scene of an incident and out for investigation and Code 7 for a meal break. Everything else is normal speech.

 

[es93546]

At least in the wildland fire community, "plain language" has been emphasized in fire comms training for a number of years. 'Brevity codes' as they are termed, are very strongly condemned. Jargon, of course, is an unavoidable aspect of a technical endeavor. Those who are new to monitoring wildland fire communications might be baffled, for instance, with the term 'SEAT Base'... (Single-Engine Air Tanker Base). Understanding the jargon comes quickly, however...

I've always seen/heard the term "Clear Text." It standardizes the most common situations and prescribes the most concise ways to express them.

 

[KK4JUG]

Do you mean one agency not using code is not significant? The same is true for all the fire agencies in the western U.S. at the federal, state and local levels. The only time I see ten codes associated with a fire department it is one that is located in the eastern U.S. I think the eastern fire departments being older, are steeped in some long practiced traditions. The Los Angeles PD has never used code, with the exception of labeling crimes with the CA Penal Code section, such as a 459 for burglary, 211 for robbery and 415 for a disturbance. They also use Code 3 for red lights and sirens, Code 6 for on scene of an incident and out for investigation and Code 7 for a meal break. Everything else is normal speech.

All those numbers are specific items. 10-4 is simply an "OK," such as "Everything's 10-4" or "10-4, I'm ready." Even civilians sometimes use them. I fully understand your point(s) but 10-4 has been around so long and has so permeated so many other vocations (taxis, security, etc.) that use radios that I still say it'll be here for a long, long time.

 

[ecps92]

till you get a state that uses 10-5 and not 10-4

All those numbers are specific items. 10-4 is simply an "OK," such as "Everything's 10-4" or "10-4, I'm ready." Even civilians sometimes use them. I fully understand your point(s) but 10-4 has been around so long and has so permeated so many other vocations (taxis, security, etc.) that use radios that I still say it'll be here for a long, long time.

 

[reconrider8]

Or dot using 4-10 like here

 

[es93546]

till you get a state that uses 10-5 and not 10-4

Interesting, 10-5 has always meant "relay traffic" everywhere I've been. In the days when lookout towers played the role of repeaters, since we didn't have any of them, I remember saying "Kendrick, 2-22, 10-5 Kaibab please." The lookout would just say "go ahead" or "proceed" and I would say something like "Bull Basin Fire showed 2 small smokes, will recheck tomorrow." Some people would be so good at relaying they would repeat any words you used with an inflection and use the same inflections. Others would say, "2-21 says he will check the Bull Basin Fire in 2 days cause its smoking." In the winter when I was skiing on the job in Bull Basin I could not reach anyone at all, because the lookout was boarded up in late September. When burst tone, and better CTCSS, selectable repeaters were put where a lot of lookouts existed, we didn't have to rely on whether a lookout paid attention or not.

 

[ecps92]

Department of Safety (NH) - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

Interesting, 10-5 has always meant "relay traffic" everywhere I've been. In the days when lookout towers played the role of repeaters, since we didn't have any of them, I remember saying "Kendrick, 2-22, 10-5 Kaibab please." The lookout would just say "go ahead" or "proceed" and I would say something like "Bull Basin Fire showed 2 small smokes, will recheck tomorrow." Some people would be so good at relaying they would repeat any words you used with an inflection and use the same inflections. Others would say, "2-21 says he will check the Bull Basin Fire in 2 days cause its smoking." In the winter when I was skiing on the job in Bull Basin I could not reach anyone at all, because the lookout was boarded up in late September. When burst tone, and better CTCSS, selectable repeaters were put where a lot of lookouts existed, we didn't have to rely on whether a lookout paid attention or not.

 

[es93546]

Department of Safety (NH) - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

Wow! I would have a hard time listening to them! This shows the superiority of Clear Text. Who is going to remember that "10-83" means vehicle is out of service for repairs and why remember such anyway. Clear Text would state it "Out of service, mechanical." It might take slightly longer but it applies no matter what state a person is from or in. It applies to every state as once an incident is using federal resources ICS and Clear Text are mandatory. If a person is not well versed in Clear Text on their daily job, it is tough to use it when mutual aid requires it.

 

[es93546]

Department of Safety (NH) - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

New Hampshire is not even using the APCO suggested ten codes. I've observed that both law enforcement and fire agencies in the east think locally and traditionally, with procedures rooted in the distant past. I watched a YouTube video one day where none of the units were using tactical designators, they were using their daily designators. So Battalion 7 remained that even though he was the Incident Commander (IC) and Battalion 3 was actually the Charlie Division Supervisor, which refers to the back of the building. The other divisions might have Batt Chiefs, but let's say a truck captain was division supervisor qualified, would the designator be "Captain 54" or some such? How are firefighters supposed to to keep the line of authority straight? What if non-local resources arrive on scene? The video showed the fire started to take off on them and the IC spoke into the radio with "Battalion 7, Alarm, strike the second box" or some such. If I was listening I would interpret that Alarm was calling BC7, since ICS also specifies the unit being called is always first, none of this "2150 TO Headquarters" stuff. Additionally what in the world does "Strike the Second Box" mean?

It was like this all over the country at one time. The Congress passed the so called "FIRESCOPE" law in 1971 or 1972. ICS was the result as that is the goal specifically stated in this law. I worked a large fire in California in 1980 where an early version of ICS was being used. The U.S. Forest Service made ICS mandatory by 1986. Both structural and wildland fire agencies adopted it a few years prior to that. It became mandatory for the NPS, BLM, USFWS and BIA instituted it around the same time. Federal law requires the use of ICS for mutual aid and I recall that being on the books in the late 1990's or early 2000's. I note that when watching YouTube that ICS seems to be used for daily incidents in the west and back to about the 100th meridian or maybe the Mississippi River. East of there a hodgepodge of terminology and command systems seem to be in use.

With the numbers of hurricanes, tornadoes and other disasters increasing, the use of national resources and ICS in eastern and southern states are going to be more frequent. It would seem that wise to make some changes to daily procedures.

Maybe my impression of eastern agencies is wrong. My travel east of the Mississippi River, as an adult, is limited to 3 trips in 1984, 1990 and 1996. My scanner listening time in the east is nearly zero. So what do eastern state residents observe. ICS is actually "federal lingo" in a manner of thinking, so this is still on topic.

 

[ecps92]

Fire and EMS - AOK for ICS - used regularly

Police - slightly, more use when the incident becomes the big one

Maybe my impression of eastern agencies is wrong. My travel east of the Mississippi River, as an adult, is limited to 3 trips in 1984, 1990 and 1996. My scanner listening time in the east is nearly zero. So what do eastern state residents observe. ICS is actually "federal lingo" in a manner of thinking, so this is still on topic.

 

[Metronorthradio]

what about Vermont? vtaot use A-4= as in 10-4 , vtsp use a few 11 codes (11-20 & 11-21- officer safety checks)

 

[es93546]

what about Vermont? vtaot use A-4= as in 10-4 , vtsp use a few 11 codes (11-20 & 11-21- officer safety checks)

Chalk up one more state using something local that out of state resources are not going to understand. Law enforcement seems to defend codes vigorously and fire and EMS do not. If they want to keep the 10 code, then I think one nationwide version should be mandatory. There is already a standard, APCO has one. In the west fire departments strongly dislike the use of codes. They are dangerous on the fireground. Law enforcement in the west have differing code systems. In California the CHP has the 11 code in addition to the 10 code. Most rural counties use what the CHP uses. "11-44" is a fatality. The instructions I was given by the U.S. Forest Service is we had to state the mechanism of death to justify the 11-44. State law has a list of 8 such mechanisms that allow first responders/non physicians to declare a "Do Not Resuscitate" or "DNR." I think I was taught such when I took EMT training in New Mexico in the late 1970's, but California put their list into law. I don't know if other states have similar. I had to declare 2 DNR's on the job, but saw and participated in scene processing on a few more. .

In the case of mutual aid situations with out of state people resources involved, I think this should be standardized nationwide with "DNR" as this is what I think the medical profession uses. The standards should be the same nationwide. Locally our county paramedics use 11-44 when communicating with dispatch and with the one ER in the county. The triage colors are specified nationwide, with people who belong on the black tarp being DNR's or will be there shortly and there isn't anything we can do to change that, people on the red tarp who will die shortly if we don't do something, those on the yellow tarp who are injured and treatment can be delayed and the green tarp for the walking wounded. I think you could use these colors nationwide and be understood. This is included in training for the CERT program and EMT's. It works quite well.

I will modify a famous quote: "Can't we just all get on the same page here?"

 

[ecps92]

Wishfull thinking, but never gonna happen in our lifetime

sub, hoagie, grinder, torpedo, hero - We got a long way to go

I will modify a famous quote: "Can't we just all get on the same page here?"

 

[es93546]

Wishfull thinking, but never gonna happen in our lifetime

sub, hoagie, grinder, torpedo, hero - We got a long way to go

I celebrate regional differences in accents, food, music, etc. It is what makes life interesting, however, lives are not at stake. ICS will prevail at some point. I've witnessed changes that the usual suspects resisted at first, with the change prevailing.