SDS100/SDS200: Filter problems with no resolution..

[chad_96]

So I've searched thread after thread, gathering information on the use of filters. The common answer that everyone has is, " It's not a one size fits all, you have to try out the filters until you find the one that works for that specific site/dept/etc.. for YOUR listening area."

I've spent several weeks trying filters. And I'm either missing something in the process that I'm not seeing, or maybe I have another issue I'm not discovering.

What I have found is that when I find a filter for the site I'm having problems with, it works great. And then a few hours later, or the following day, it's the worst of the filters. I am flipping filters anywhere from 1 time a day to 5-10 times. Nothing seems to be a happy medium with " the least amount of D-Errors". What works one hour, or for the day, then is the worst.

I've searched high and low through the outdated threads and newer threads to no logical explanation on an issue like this, as it seems most everyone who has had this issue finds a filter that works and can set it and be good, with small error. I have also tried IFX, which don't seem to do anything beneficial or at all.

Can anyone chime in and help point me to a logical place to research further, have any advice on the issue, or otherwise? I'm at a complete dead end of idea at this point and It's getting tiring flipping through filters numerous times a day.

 

[trentbob]

So I've searched thread after thread, gathering information on the use of filters. The common answer that everyone has is, " It's not a one size fits all, you have to try out the filters until you find the one that works for that specific site/dept/etc.. for YOUR listening area."

I've spent several weeks trying filters. And I'm either missing something in the process that I'm not seeing, or maybe I have another issue I'm not discovering.

What I have found is that when I find a filter for the site I'm having problems with, it works great. And then a few hours later, or the following day, it's the worst of the filters. I am flipping filters anywhere from 1 time a day to 5-10 times. Nothing seems to be a happy medium with " the least amount of D-Errors". What works one hour, or for the day, then is the worst.

I've searched high and low through the outdated threads and newer threads to no logical explanation on an issue like this, as it seems most everyone who has had this issue finds a filter that works and can set it and be good, with small error. I have also tried IFX, which don't seem to do anything beneficial or at all.

Can anyone chime in and help point me to a logical place to research further, have any advice on the issue, or otherwise? I'm at a complete dead end of idea at this point and It's getting tiring flipping through filters numerous times a day.

Did you try applying no filter at all to the site or sites of the system you're having a problem with?

Well you're on the right track by applying the filter to site options of a system. The less sites you use on that system the better. If you have more than one site on that system It's not unusual to have one filter for one site and another filter for another site.

I'm sure you've read that filters are not needed for every object or system on the scanner, it's more of a troubleshooting tool for a problematic system.

How's your performance if you just use the normal filter which your Global filters should be set to as a default. Meaning, you didn't do anything. Was there a problem just using normal filter which would automatically be applied to every object or system on the scanner without you having to do anything?

 

[MUTNAV]

I think it's a great question and I look forward to the replies from the very smart people about what may be going on.

First guess, is they will ask what are you trying to listen to (freq and if thier are multiple transmitters involved, like lots of portables that may be a little off freq etc...? and what filters (brand, and characteristics if you have any) you are physically using. Also, if their are any particular times of day involved.


Theres a strong possibility that we are using the word "filter" differently. I'm thinking mechanical devices. Yup... I'm way off here... please disregard everything I mentioned.

Thanks
Joel

 

[trentbob]

Also make sure you stick to just normal, wide normal, invert, wide invert or no filter at all. Don't use the auto filters, they sample all the filters and slow scanning down.

 

[chad_96]

Did you try applying no filter at all to the site or sites of the system you're having a problem with?

Well you're on the right track by applying the filter to site options of a system. The less sites you use on that system the better. If you have more than one site on that system It's not unusual to have one filter for one site and another filter for another site.

I'm sure you've read that filters are not needed for every object or system on the scanner, it's more of a troubleshooting tool for a problematic system.

How's your performance if you just use the normal filter which your Global filters should be set to as a default. Meaning, you didn't do anything. Was there a problem just using normal filter which would automatically be applied to every object or system on the scanner without you having to do anything?

Yes, I have sampled all filters. I have also used the no filter setting.

The normal filter setting always ends up with a lot of D-Error rates, as does no filter.

For reference I am monitoring only 2 sites. Site #1 my main local site ( approx. 12 miles east of me) and site #2 ( approx. 18 miles southwest). I have this issue on both sites, but mostly Site #2.

Sometimes wide invert is the best, sometimes invert is the best. Then sometimes neither is the best and its wide normal. I have found normal and no filter are never any good, although no filter worked the best in the very beginning.

I'm mind blown, and confused. The only thing left in my brain is an antenna issue. I have used 3 antennas now indoors and outdoors, and it's always the same flipping of filters. I've used a mag mount PCTEL maxrad bmax 8155S that's specific for 800mhz and supposed to be for rural areas, which I'm in. And it's been the best antenna by far. Always showing full signal and DATA. RSSI stays between -78 and -90 depending on which filter is working best at the time.

 

[chad_96]

I think it's a great question and I look forward to the replies from the very smart people about what may be going on.

First guess, is they will ask what are you trying to listen to (freq and if thier are multiple transmitters involved, like lots of portables that may be a little off freq etc...? and what filters (brand, and characteristics if you have any) you are physically using. Also, if their are any particular times of day involved.


Theres a strong possibility that we are using the word "filter" differently. I'm thinking mechanical devices. Yup... I'm way off here... please disregard everything I mentioned.

Thanks
Joel

Yeah, I'm no stranger here to the forums. Was told not to ask anymore questions as people are just sitting back watching Me ask ridiculous question after ridiculous question by one of the members whose self entitled. Not a good look on the numerous companies who endorse and sponsor RR to send people here to be bashed and belittled, or RR themselves. Forums are for questions, 1 or 1,000, period.

Anyways, thanks for the heads up..

 

[chad_96]

Also make sure you stick to just normal, wide normal, invert, wide invert or no filter at all. Don't use the auto filters, they sample all the filters and slow scanning down.

Yes, I have kept to those because of the auto filter issue. I did try the wide auto, and it also worked well and didn't seem to bad on scanning, but only worked well 1 time.

 

[trentbob]

Yes, I have sampled all filters. I have also used the no filter setting.

The normal filter setting always ends up with a lot of D-Error rates, as does no filter.

For reference I am monitoring only 2 sites. Site #1 my main local site ( approx. 12 miles east of me) and site #2 ( approx. 18 miles southwest). I have this issue on both sites, but mostly Site #2.

Sometimes wide invert is the best, sometimes invert is the best. Then sometimes neither is the best and its wide normal. I have found normal and no filter are never any good, although no filter worked the best in the very beginning.

I'm mind blown, and confused. The only thing left in my brain is an antenna issue. I have used 3 antennas now indoors and outdoors, and it's always the same flipping of filters. I've used a mag mount PCTEL maxrad bmax 8155S that's specific for 800mhz and supposed to be for rural areas, which I'm in. And it's been the best antenna by far. Always showing full signal and DATA. RSSI stays between -78 and -90 depending on which filter is working best at the time.

So you're talking about an 800 MHz system and you're only using two sites that don't exactly sound that close.

Yes it can always be an antenna issue or being out of range, this is summertime and often increased foliage and even just your area topography can wreak havoc.

You seem to have a grasp on how to apply filters, I assume you're doing it the right way, through the keyboard on the radio while looking at reception data in real time while receiving the system.

Your best reception indicator is error rate as RSSI can be affected by noise, not necessarily better reception. I also find my ear to be a very good reception indicator but it's basically error rate.

You can always use Global filters to quickly sample, if you find a better filter then return Global filter to normal so as not to compromise any other object or system on the scanner and then use the best filter on the sites.

I am actually on my way out to pick up take out food but will be back. Meanwhile let's see what some others have to say. It would be good if you give us your state, county and hometown and the exact system you are having an issue with.

 

[chad_96]

So you're talking about an 800 MHz system and you're only using two sites that don't exactly sound that close.

Yes it can always be an antenna issue or being out of range, this is summertime and often increased foliage and even just your area topography can wreak havoc.

You seem to have a grasp on how to apply filters, I assume you're doing it the right way, through the keyboard on the radio while looking at reception data in real time while receiving the system.

Your best reception indicator is error rate as RSSI can be affected by noise, not necessarily better reception. I also find my ear to be a very good reception indicator but it's basically error rate.

You can always use Global filters to quickly sample, if you find a better filter then return Global filter to normal so as not to compromise any other object or system on the scanner and then use the best filter on the sites.

I am actually on my way out to pick up take out food but will be back. Meanwhile let's see what some others have to say. It would be good if you give us your state, county and hometown and the exact system you are having an issue with.

Correct, I am using the keyboard to change filters as quickly as possible, and using D-error and my ear to chose the filter that works best when the previous filter begins to get worse.

I am monitoring the Colorado DTRS statewide system. Specifically Bent County Colorado. All on 800 mhz. The analog channels displayed in RR database are out of date and not used anymore.

Wild thing I've really come across with all this is that I hear further away transmissions better than ANY local or closer. The state patrol uses both sites, for example, and when the further away counties are patched over to my local area TG they rarely have any garble or issues. The other thing that gets me is I get better RSSI and D-Errors on the site that is further than my main site and there's a huge Mesa that runs behind my house that logically should make it where I can't even get signal from that site, in my opinion.

 

[Ubbe]

I'm mind blown, and confused. The only thing left in my brain is an antenna issue.

RSSI are sampling a wide frequency range including interfering transmitters, so don't use that as a guide for filter selection. The receiver in SDS scanners works very different from normal scanners and your experience from those other scanners or radios doesn't help.

If you have overload issues, it can be a nearby cellular site, then it can be impossible to get a good reception. Any strong transmitter many MHz away will desense a SDS scanner as there are a power detect circuit some 10MHz wide at the front end of the receiver that are not affected by filter selection or IFX that will then reduce its gain.

Those filter settings and IFX are to solve issues if you happen to receive an image frequency from another transmitter right over the frequency you are trying to receive. It's a pretty good risk of that happening but then changing filter or IFX should help.

Interfering transmitters are usually not in constant transmit so the RF environment are constantly changing, so having to change filters on a regular basis sounds normal. It is what it is with these SDS scanners, they are not the best receivers but are the only scanners that can handle simulcast systems properly. The late Paul Opitz, the scanner guru at Uniden, said that if you don't have simulcast issues then you are probably better off using another scanner model.

/Ubbe

 

[chad_96]

For reference, today I've flipped filters probably 5 times. I'm finding today that I'm flipping mostly back and forth from Invert to Wide Invert.

This is absolutely crazy, surely Uniden can find a better and much more user friendly way to handle these filters. Where's everyone's bestie joe the bearcat or whoever he is that monitors stuff on here I hear so much about. Do better uniden, this is ridiculous and needs remedy instead of people spending their hard earned money to put up with this B.S.

I've found many people with this exact same issue. This is out of hand.

 

[chad_96]

RSSI are sampling a wide frequency range including interfering transmitters, so don't use that as a guide for filter selection. The receiver in SDS scanners works very different from normal scanners and your experience from those other scanners or radios doesn't help.

If you have overload issues, it can be a nearby cellular site, then it can be impossible to get a good reception. Any strong transmitter many MHz away will desense a SDS scanner as there are a power detect circuit some 10MHz wide at the front end of the receiver that are not affected by filter selection or IFX that will then reduce its gain.

Those filter settings and IFX are to solve issues if you happen to receive an image frequency from another transmitter right over the frequency you are trying to receive. It's a pretty good risk of that happening but then changing filter or IFX should help.

Interfering transmitters are usually not in constant transmit so the RF environment are constantly changing, so having to change filters on a regular basis sounds normal. It is what it is with these SDS scanners, they are not the best receivers but are the only scanners that can handle simulcast systems properly. The late Paul Opitz, the scanner guru at Uniden, said that if you don't have simulcast issues then you are probably better off using another scanner model.

/Ubbe

Yeah, I have a hard time believing in my area that is an issue, but possible.

If the late Paul Opitz "Scanner guru" said that, then Uniden should have heeded that statement and made that clear to anyone purchasing an SDS series. It's blown up to be the best of the best. Guess you could say Uniden should figure out a fix or be liable to refund people who are sick and tired of dealing with this crap.

Hard to also believe that of all those filters, as well as IFX that " interferring transmitters" could effect all every single filter. Doesn't seem proper. Isn't that what the filters and ifx are to do? Remedy that exact situation? Why else would they have all those and not a thing to remedy "interferring transmitters"? I live in a very rural area with very little towers. I would imagine that towns and cities larger than mine ( that's 90% of anywhere) has a lot more "interferring transmitters" and people seem to do just fine...doesn't seem logical...

 

[trentbob]

For reference, today I've flipped filters probably 5 times. I'm finding today that I'm flipping mostly back and forth from Invert to Wide Invert.

This is absolutely crazy, surely Uniden can find a better and much more user friendly way to handle these filters. Where's everyone's bestie joe the bearcat or whoever he is that monitors stuff on here I hear so much about. Do better uniden, this is ridiculous and needs remedy instead of people spending their hard earned money to put up with this B.S.

I've found many people with this exact same issue. This is out of hand.

I am actually picking up my takeout food and then I'm going to eat it but I agree that RSSI is not a good reception indicator in this case. I'm also thinking along the lines of, this is not a filter problem. You mentioned wide invert and invert as being the most favorable, I would pick wide invert and stick with it.

As said, you might have other issues going on.

 

[tvengr]

Can anyone chime in and help point me to a logical place to research further, have any advice on the issue, or otherwise? I'm at a complete dead end of idea at this point and It's getting tiring flipping through filters numerous times a day.

If the filters do not work, try using IFX on the frequencies in a site. You can create a list of frequencies for IFX under the Miscellaneous tab of the Profile Editor in Sentinel.

 

[chad_96]

If the filters do not work, try using IFX on the frequencies in a site. You can create a list of frequencies for IFX under the Miscellaneous tab of the Profile Editor in Sentinel.

Thanks, i've already tried that also as it was recommended previously. Actually, did nothing to help anything and noticed no difference over a few days trying it out.

 

[MStep]

FWIW, and I'm willing to take my share of knocks on my comments, but as I have pointed out to several of my local friends who have either the SDS100 and SDS200 receivers--- these are just hobbyist devices and one should not expect precision reception of public service radio systems that are using high-cost equipment to accomplish their communications goals.

I was amazed at the number of "bells & whistles" that the late Paul Opitz was able to incorporate into the design of this scanner series, and I was always under the impression from the very early days of the SDS that the aforementioned filters were more experimental than anything else.

Sadly, Paul left us before he could continue his work.

 

[trentbob]

FWIW, and I'm willing to take my share of knocks on my comments, but as I have pointed out to several of my local friends who have either the SDS100 and SDS200 receivers--- these are just hobbyist devices and one should not expect precision reception of public service radio systems that are using high-cost equipment to accomplish their communications goals.

I was amazed at the number of "bells & whistles" that the late Paul Opitz was able to incorporate into the design of this scanner series, and I was always under the impression from the very early days of the SDS that the aforementioned filters were more experimental than anything else.

Sadly, Paul left us before he could continue his work.

The filters were a result of, missed transmissions, clipped transmissions and overall bad performance on some simulcast systems.

Those firmware updates were in the waiting. They were introduced in two separate updates. First, normal, invert, Auto followed by wide normal, wide invert. Wide Auto and what was labeled no filter at all.

 

[chad_96]

FWIW, and I'm willing to take my share of knocks on my comments, but as I have pointed out to several of my local friends who have either the SDS100 and SDS200 receivers--- these are just hobbyist devices and one should not expect precision reception of public service radio systems that are using high-cost equipment to accomplish their communications goals.

I was amazed at the number of "bells & whistles" that the late Paul Opitz was able to incorporate into the design of this scanner series, and I was always under the impression from the very early days of the SDS that the aforementioned filters were more experimental than anything else.

Sadly, Paul left us before he could continue his work.

I agree and disagree with your statement.

All scanners are "hobbyist devices" in my opinion. What gets me is simply the filters. I've read MANY threads, mostly outdated (2019-2022) that all state the same thing, in different words, with one common ending. FILTERS. Try them, find the one with the least D-Error, and stick with it. Done that. Then in a matter of 2-24 hours later it's the worst. Yet, a common theme in all these threads is that the person inquiring has found the proper filter. No other issues raised.

However, I debated on whether to post here as one member said that I should quit posting anything, and people are not going to answer me. So, here I am.

The only common theme I have found is there is a solution to everything that has to do with the sds series. As Ubbe, who I've been warned doesn't live in the U.S. and gives false information to people, by that person stated, " if you don't have simulcast then another model of scanner would have been a better choice." Now how dumb is that. All I have to do according to all the threads is turn the filter to the OFF position. Problem solved I guess. That's what all other models use.

Point is, hobbyist device or not, there's a reason why I'm constantly flipping through filters. Interference, sure, but Interference is surely not causing all the filters to work better day in and day out. Something more is happening, and I'm missing something. So, that's why I'm here at the forums again, asking. Like I told that discriminating little punk that told me to "stay off the forums and read and figure it out". That's what forums are for. Especially one labeled uniden tech discussion.

Anyways, thanks for the input. However, I know someone has dealt with this issue, or helped with it. And 1 person has to have an insight. There's no way ANY scanner would act like this. I know many people with them, and they don't have all this B.S. undien filter crap to contend with. And the SDS is the best out there! Ask anyone who sells them! They could sell me a trash bag and tell me it's a cadillac, apparently!

 

[chad_96]

"The late Paul Opitz, the scanner guru at Uniden, said that if you don't have simulcast issues then you are probably better off using another scanner model." ..as quoted by @Ubbe

So explain this Ubbe, of the OFF positon is what other uniden models use. Why the **** would I need another model instead of the SDS series???? Why not just put it to the off position, Einstein? Then I'm using any other model, as that is what other models use? Explain yourself...

Is this the type of b.s. weinershades told me you spew out to people? I believe the direct quote was.." Ubbe gives a lot of false and bad information, and doesn't even live in the United States."...

So, why I did my duty of paying for a membership, that I didn't have to, I get the conflicting bull**** opinions of other members. Or is it that when the members who claim to know their ****, cower down when they don't know an answer and have to much pride so they give the rhetorical "figure it out, read, research," type answers?

Honestly, many company's recommendations say RR for help, database, etc.. just to be led to "pros" who give conflicting answers and belittle people. Gtfoh..

 

[RMason]

I’ve monitored the CO DTRS in Northern Colorado with SDSx00 with default filters. I have seen where some get better results in Colorado with wide normal - but as you know, the filters are location dependent. However, It sounds like your issue is something that the filters do not address.

Let me throw some questions out for you to consider :

What version of firmware do you have installed?

What range of D errors are you seeing?

What happens when you take the SDS100 outside? (Are you suffering from local interference or inside your residence?)

What happens if you take the scanner closer to one of the sites? To the town the site is nearest to? (Does it improve with a stronger signal?)

Are there any cell towers nearby? Other possible sources of interference?

Are other settings set at the factory default? (P25 thresholds, etc)

What sites in Bent County you focusing on?