Fire Department radio selection

[ve2hkw]

So as to not hijack an existing thread, posting a new one here. For those just joining the program, see here: VP8000 NXDN confirmed

PLEASE don't do that. Maybe not equip ever fire fighter with a VP8000.

Yeah, I don't see the budget supporting a complete transition all at once, so I'm trying to figure out what might be best to get things implemented, even if it is painful. The end goal would be to sunset the Hytera radios over time and move to NX/VP radios. As mentioned before it would be nice if the VP5000 had DMR, but that isn't currently offered so we are SOL on that.

Batteries, speaker mics, and chargers are the same between the VP and NX

I think the RSM port is actually different between the VP and the NX, but I'll know for sure today

The end goal is to have reliable radios, interop would be amazing, and I really want to push that, but I don't know if I have the political clout to push this all the way to a VP8K. Moving anything along in an organization is slow isn't it lol

A little back story, the radios we have now are Hytera PD662i and Hytera HP682. Part of the reason we have them is because the radio shop the department always delt with (started long before I joined) used to do Vertex and Moto, but then drama ensued in the Moto world and they were Hytera only. Leadership at the time (2018ish) just went with what they offered and here we are today.... Everyone yearns for the Vertex radios of yeold, and we had 2-3 different models of those radios as well to manage... As with anything worth doing, you have 20 years of history to wade through to understand the subtleties of everything.

All ya'lls feedback is greatly appreciated, and any tips/tricks are welcomed.

Harrison -- VE2HKW

 

[wd8chl]

The NX-5K, VP-5K, 6K, and 8K series all use the same batteries, speaker-mics, and chargers.
And the sooner you can get rid of those HYT radios, the better. They've been on the edge of being withdrawn from the NA market for several years because of their legal issues. And the quality is just not there.

 

[kayn1n32008]

The only issue I see with deploying the NX5xxx radios is the software. It sucks. I've gotten to get hands on with a VP8000 and it's a nice radio, I've used the NX5x00 and it's a nice radio too.

I just really don't care for KPG-D1(NX5xxx) software.

Maybe VM8000 In every unit, VP8000 for officers and NX-5200 for ranks below officer?

If you use Simplex DMR on the fire ground, I'd change it to P25 or analogue. The half rate vocoder sounds like ass compared to P25.

 

[mmckenna]

I'd agree with the others. Keep this simple.

It's been a few years since I supported a fire agency, but I do still support a police department.
One of the bigger costs is ongoing support. Things like batteries, antennas, speaker mics, periodic alignment. All those things get easier/less expensive if you have a common platform to deal with. Might be higher up front costs, but over the 5-10 year lifespan of the radio, you're going to come out ahead.

The 8000's appear to be nice radios, but I think everyone carrying one is getting excessive unless there is a very well established need to interoperate with departments all on different bands all the time. If all your local agencies are on different bands, then it would make more sense to all sit down together and find a common interoperability solution. Every person carrying a $5000 radio isn't the right approach. Maybe one in each truck, maybe a mobile in each truck, but not every. single. person.

 

[ve2hkw]

The NX-5K, VP-5K, 6K, and 8K series all use the same batteries, speaker-mics, and chargers.
And the sooner you can get rid of those HYT radios, the better. They've been on the edge of being withdrawn from the NA market for several years because of their legal issues. And the quality is just not there.

This is good to know and definitely makes the idea of going NX for lower ranks and VP for higher ranks more desirable. I also agree with the HYT phaseout, they aren't bad radios, but not suitable for public service.

Maybe VM8000 In every unit, VP8000 for officers and NX-5200 for ranks below officer?

If you use Simplex DMR on the fire ground, I'd change it to P25 or analogue. The half rate vocoder sounds like ass compared to P25.

I'll be tackling mobile units next, our current setup is an APX4500 from the US mutual aid bit, and a Hytera Mobile for us. There is one portable (handheld) radio in one truck to talk to the mutual aid to our north, and that seems shortsighted... I'll reference your signature box with "Interoperatablity is not a technology, it is an attitude!!!"

Our simplex channel is the output frequency of our repeater because....... well.... someone thought that was a good idea. No one (other than me) seems to understand why Central can hear us on direct when we are under the tower at the fire station with the antenna for their gateway.....


Basically, we have to follow the conditions of our radio license which is in itself screwed up a little bit (This conclusion was drawn after talking with another friend in radio who isn't local but went over some stuff with me) so P25 isn't an option right now, but it could be interesting to consider.

I'd agree with the others. Keep this simple.

It's been a few years since I supported a fire agency, but I do still support a police department.
One of the bigger costs is ongoing support. Things like batteries, antennas, speaker mics, periodic alignment. All those things get easier/less expensive if you have a common platform to deal with. Might be higher up front costs, but over the 5-10 year lifespan of the radio, you're going to come out ahead.

The 8000's appear to be nice radios, but I think everyone carrying one is getting excessive unless there is a very well established need to interoperate with departments all on different bands all the time. If all your local agencies are on different bands, then it would make more sense to all sit down together and find a common interoperability solution. Every person carrying a $5000 radio isn't the right approach. Maybe one in each truck, maybe a mobile in each truck, but not every. single. person.

I agree that the best outcome would be one system that serves everyone, but we are in a unique position where we are kinda independent with close ties to most of the departments around us... Plus it would be coordinating 2 countries, 2 languages, 2+ centrals, and about 20 municipalities to move to a system like that. So I agree that a 5000 dollar radio on everyone's hip isn't the answer, I'd argue that for the 10 or so guys who do respond mutual aid and the officers that don't should have interop capability, but the in territory only guys would get an NX-5200.

Another factor here is that we had a repeater failure of our system one night, and realized we didn't have a plan B in place. No one had a radio to contact our Canadian central and we had to get times and such from our US central. (I'll remove the internet mask here and say this is for the Hemmingford, Qc fire department, we are technically a station in the US mutual aid system, but have our own central in Canada, and effectively sign in and sign out of both dispatches for every call. It's been this way since the 50s, and it works surprisingly well, but I feel we could push a little and be a lot better)

Thanks all again, the knowledge that the batteries are the same makes choices a lot easier. Also, the whole perpetual license thing with EFJ/KW sounds like a somewhat future proof way of upgrading in the future.

 

[mmckenna]

I agree that the best outcome would be one system that serves everyone, but we are in a unique position where we are kinda independent with close ties to most of the departments around us... Plus it would be coordinating 2 countries, 2 languages, 2+ centrals, and about 20 municipalities to move to a system like that. So I agree that a 5000 dollar radio on everyone's hip isn't the answer, I'd argue that for the 10 or so guys who do respond mutual aid and the officers that don't should have interop capability, but the in territory only guys would get an NX-5200.

Yeah, that's a pretty unique situation.

We're not quite as complex, but our fire department was merged with the adjacent agency and are dispatched by them. However, when they are handling a call in our area, they respond to our dispatch center, not the countywide. So they do check in/out with two agencies.
Being all VHF analog, that makes it easier.

I'd still suggest you carefully question if each and every member needs a multiband radio. Usually a mulitband mobile in the engine will handle logging in/out with dispatch easily enough.
For fireground, just use simplex on whatever band you have.

There will always be challenges and the "what if's", but budgets are real and often these challenges can be met several ways.

Another factor here is that we had a repeater failure of our system one night, and realized we didn't have a plan B in place. No one had a radio to contact our Canadian central and we had to get times and such from our US central. (I'll remove the internet mask here and say this is for the Hemmingford, Qc fire department, we are technically a station in the US mutual aid system, but have our own central in Canada, and effectively sign in and sign out of both dispatches for every call. It's been this way since the 50s, and it works surprisingly well, but I feel we could push a little and be a lot better)

Some of the established interoperability frequencies should be cross border capable. Have you researched that as a solution. You guys sound like the exact reason these exist for cross border communications.

Thanks all again, the knowledge that the batteries are the same makes choices a lot easier. Also, the whole perpetual license thing with EFJ/KW sounds like a somewhat future proof way of upgrading in the future.

Not sure how long you typically run your radios. I know it's different with extremely rural and volunteer departments. Usually 5-7 years is common in my area, and if you take a $1000 radio and spread that cost out over 7-10 years (or more in your case), then it gets to be not quite expensive as it would seem. Replacing batteries, antennas and speaker mics every year is where it gets expensive for us.

 

[ve2hkw]

Some of the established interoperability frequencies should be cross border capable. Have you researched that as a solution. You guys sound like the exact reason these exist for cross border communications.

So... That's kinda why multi-band is important. The US are 800 MHz only (Moto APX6000 are their bread and butter) We are VHF, and the north is UHF. There are many interop frequencies, but none that a monoband radio can handle in any great capacity.

In case I wasn't clear, I'm not wanting everyone to have a multiband multimode powerhouse, it isn't needed at all. But for those that are active and respond out of bounds, it would be beneficial if when we are doing interior at a mutual aid call that we don't need 3 people with 3 radios all standing next to each other to talk. You are right that budgets are real, and I've been working to make sure that any expensive purchases are reasonable and logical.

Our last radio system before the Hyteras were pushing 12-14 years old, so yeah, our evolution is usually over the long term. I know I have many many people on the department asking for better radios, and some even commented that "We should get the radios like they have in Longueuil Qc. (we have had a ridealong program with them due to one of their Senior officers being a member of the Hemmingford Department in his off time) and that was a VP6000.... So there is a desire for change and for progress.

Thanks for the critical feedback. It helps a tonne. It is very very hard to beat experience in the field

 

[mmckenna]

Ouch, so you guys really are the "multiband radio" poster children. That's tough being stuck in the middle like that.

On the US side, this would be where I'd recommend finding someone whose really good at writing grant requests. Not sure how it works in Canada.

Good news is that there's a number of good options for radios. Tait, Motorola, Kenwood/EFJ, Harris, Bendix King. Prices seem to be coming down as more come out.

At least they are not trying to use Baofengs and looking for the right gear.

 

[ve2hkw]

At least they are not trying to use Baofengs and looking for the right gear.

My brain just twitched..... holy smokes that would be bad..... Thanks for making the Hyteras look good lol!

Yeah, I'd like to push for more inter-agency training, and I'm the one guy who knows radios on the department, so I'm trying to push my little project to improve things overall. We'll see how things shake down

 

[mmckenna]

My brain just twitched..... holy smokes that would be bad..... Thanks for making the Hyteras look good lol!

Very common occurrence down here. And trying to argue with them is pointless. They read something on the internet and there's no way to change their minds.

 

[DeoVindice]

The only issue I see with deploying the NX5xxx radios is the software. It sucks. I've gotten to get hands on with a VP8000 and it's a nice radio, I've used the NX5x00 and it's a nice radio too.

I just really don't care for KPG-D1(NX5xxx) software.

Maybe VM8000 In every unit, VP8000 for officers and NX-5200 for ranks below officer?

If you use Simplex DMR on the fire ground, I'd change it to P25 or analogue. The half rate vocoder sounds like ass compared to P25.

If you can get away from DMR (which should be done for a variety of reasons), VP5000s become an option for second-tier radios which gets around the clunky KPG-D1 and puts everything in Armada. You then have common programming and user interface (other than the top display and 4-position rocker switch) with the same batteries, RSMs, charger, and programming cable. A VP5000 is simply an NX5000 running EFJ firmware with a slightly different keypad membrane.

 

[kayn1n32008]

So... That's kinda why multi-band is important. The US are 800 MHz only (Moto APX6000 are their bread and butter) We are VHF, and the north is UHF. There are many interop frequencies, but none that a monoband radio can handle in any great capacity.

In case I wasn't clear, I'm not wanting everyone to have a multiband multimode powerhouse, it isn't needed at all.

Food for thought.

-VM8000 for all your apparatus gives you the ability to interop on the way to the calls.

-VP8000 for officers(they are the ones thay actually have to talk to other departments.)

-VP6000 or VP5000(one is getting cancelled) portables in VHF for the rank and file officers.

-As money allows, buy additional VHF RF decks and add them to the VM8000's Viking mobiles can now be used as EVRS(Enhanced Vehicular Repeater Sysyem or something close to that) if you have P25 portables, there is no transcoding, and your not converting am analogue signal to digital voice. Get a P25 VHF repeater and get rid of DMR.

You may not need a VRS when in your jurisdiction, but when you mutual aid, if you have a VRS and it's connected to your all band mobile, you can cross band to 800MHz and 420/450MHz, or where ever your UHF mutual aid partners operate and every one can communicate.

It isn't going to cheap, but it may be cheaper than denying all band to every one. I don't know, someone would have to figure out the costs of each option and see where it comes to.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Food for thought.

-VM8000 for all your apparatus gives you the ability to interop on the way to the calls.

-VP8000 for officers(they are the ones that actually have to talk to other departments.)

-VP6000 or VP5000(one is getting cancelled) portables in VHF for the rank and file officers.

-As money allows, buy additional VHF RF decks and add them to the VM8000's Viking mobiles can now be used as EVRS(Enhanced Vehicular Repeater Sysyem or something close to that) if you have P25 portables, there is no transcoding, and your not converting an analogue signal to digital voice. Get a P25 VHF repeater and get rid of DMR.

You may not need a VRS when in your jurisdiction, but when you mutual aid, if you have a VRS and it's connected to your all band mobile, you can cross band to 800MHz and 420/450MHz, or where ever your UHF mutual aid partners operate and every one can communicate.

It isn't going to cheap, but it may be cheaper than deploying all band to every one. I don't know, someone would have to figure out the costs of each option and see where it comes to.

JFC. Stupid phone, I absolutely hate this phone, because of the width of it, and the autocorrect absolutely sucks ass.

DEPLOYING not denying. Maybe a mod can some by and fix the three errors(at least) in the original post.

I also think I was told, that they will cross band and cross mode but that might be just between VM8000 mobiles, also, I don't know if the VM7000(which ever has HF-Lo besides the NX series) is going to get a mode upgrade to include DMR or NXDN, or if it can be stacked mixed model with the VM8000. One can wish😏

 

[kayn1n32008]

If you can get away from DMR (which should be done for a variety of reasons), VP5000s become an option for second-tier radios which gets around the clunky KPG-D1 and puts everything in Armada. You then have common programming and user interface (other than the top display and 4-position rocker switch) with the same batteries, RSMs, charger, and programming cable. A VP5000 is simply an NX5000 running EFJ firmware with a slightly different keypad membrane.

Oh yes, 100% yes. Stay as far away from KPG-D1 as you can.

I wish Kenwood would just port all the currently P25 capable NX radios to Armada. Let EFJ take care of the P25 offerings, they are some top shelf guys doing the firmware.

And yes. OP you really need to Ditch DMR. Go to a P25 conventional repeater.

Make your vendor take the time to optimize DSP, EQ, and AGC attack time. Once it's been optimized, P25 sounds really good. You will wish you never used DMR at all.

Even legacy IMBE sounds better than half rate(DMR, P25 P2) AMBE+. OP will not regret ditching DMR for conventional P25.

We have a quantar up and running on a ham frequency that a few of us are using with Astro Saber, XTS2500, XTS3000, XTS5000 and NX5300. Three of us spent a couple hours optimizing the NX5300 audio, and got it sounding very similar to the XTS series.

I'll never miss static, hiss, picket fencing, and wildly varying audio levels of analogue.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I also agree with the HYT phaseout, they aren't bad radios, but not suitable for public service.

DMR isn't terrible, but it does not have a place in the fire service.

I'll be tackling mobile units next, our current setup is an APX4500 from the US mutual aid bit, and a Hytera Mobile for us. There is one portable (handheld) radio in one truck to talk to the mutual aid to our north, and that seems shortsighted...

I'd agree. Nothing wrong with the APX4500. It's a decent radio. Never have I gotten to use Hytera radios so I can not comment about them.

I'll reference your signature box with "Interoperatablity is not a technology, it is an attitude!!!"

Thank you. The technology CAN help facilitate it, BUT you got to leave the ego at the door when hashing out how it looks to your specific situation.

It sucks because you actually have to be able to use 3 different bands and 3 different modes. If you do any sort of wildland interface work, you may also need VHF analogue. It becomes doubly difficult if you are mutual aid to the US for interface fire and need VHF.

VHF analogue
VHF Tier 2 DMR
UHF analogue
7/800MHz P25 Phase 2


You really don't have a single channel you can use, interoperability has to be partner specific in your case. Those in charge need to understand that it's not one size fits all.

Our simplex channel is the output frequency of our repeater because....... well.... someone thought that was a good idea. No one (other than me) seems to understand why Central can hear us on direct when we are under the tower at the fire station with the antenna for their gateway.....

Oh man. Simplex should not be on the repeater output when using digital modes. I'm guessing it was done due to cross border coordination.

Digital LMR isn't anything like analogue.

Basically, we have to follow the conditions of our radio license which is in itself screwed up a little bit (This conclusion was drawn after talking with another friend in radio who isn't local but went over some stuff with me) so P25 isn't an option right now, but it could be interesting to consider.

It pretty simple to add emissions to your license.

What isn't simple, is the international coordination of trying to find a simplex frequency for both Canada and the US.

Again it's a very unique situation operation across an international border, because you are operating in two different jurisdictions, with VERY different LMR rules and requirements.

I agree that the best outcome would be one system that serves everyone, but we are in a unique position where we are kinda independent with close ties to most of the departments around us... Plus it would be coordinating 2 countries, 2 languages, 2+ centrals, and about 20 municipalities to move to a system like that. So I agree that a 5000 dollar radio on everyone's hip isn't the answer, I'd argue that for the 10 or so guys who do respond mutual aid and the officers that don't should have interop capability, but the in territory only guys would get an NX-5200.

I'd love to actually see how it all works with my own eyes, but I am stuck in Alberta, and it's a bit of a trek to get to you.

Another factor here is that we had a repeater failure of our system one night, and realized we didn't have a plan B in place.

That's no fun.

You always need a plan B.

No one had a radio to contact our Canadian central and we had to get times and such from our US central. (I'll remove the internet mask here and say this is for the Hemmingford, Qc fire department, we are technically a station in the US mutual aid system, but have our own central in Canada, and effectively sign in and sign out of both dispatches for every call. It's been this way since the 50s, and it works surprisingly well, but I feel we could push a little and be a lot better)

Thanks all again, the knowledge that the batteries are the same makes choices a lot easier. Also, the whole perpetual license thing with EFJ/KW sounds like a somewhat future proof way of upgrading in the future.

EFJ/Kenwood is doing some very interesting things these days. Its refreshing to see how they are listening and responding to the industries wants and needs at quite competitive prices.

They are listening, not dictating, like a certain other Department of Sales Prevention.