Five Lorain County FDs plan to reapply for grant

W8KIC

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“funds unneeded for capital improvements“ eh? Seriously? I can’t think of a single political figure on the federal, state or local level anywhere in this country that wouldn’t be licking their chops at the chance to pounce on a wad of cash, courtesy of the taxpayer for some dreamy eyed fantasy that THEY’RE convinced will in some way benefit society on the whole. Of course, they’ll have to come up with some catchy new name or phraseological trip that’ll literally knock the public off their feet, all in an effort to green light their snazzy new plan, ASAP. As Yakov Smirnoff once said: “What a Country!” Lol!
 
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rcid1971

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Hey, big shock! The consultant hired by the current commissioners recommended the county migrate to MARCS.

Consulting firm: Lorain County should chose Motorola/MARCS for emergency radio system​

A consulting firm hired by the Lorain County Board of Commissioners to investigate new proposals for emergency first responder radios has recommended the board go with a proposal by Motorola to get the county on the Multi-Agency Radio Communications System.

The board didn't make a decision Tuesday on what would be a two-year, multi-milliondollar project. MCM Consulting Group's recommendation also was met with criticism from first responders, union members and police officials at the meeting, who prefer one of Motorola's competitors.

Jason Roblin of MCM Consulting Group said his company's recommendation was to go with the MARCS system and its vendor Motorola.

The system is interoperable with the radios currently in use by Lorain County first responders, is at the proper 700/800 MHz frequency band to reach inside buildings across the county and is compatible with older technology, Roblin said.

He said the system should be 99.999 percent reliable, have coverage outdoors and indoors, have enough capacity to handle multiple radios and systems, give 95 percent coverage 95 percent of the time, have quality audio and pass users' tests while losing few decibels indoors.

Roblin said Lorain County officials wanted up to 24 months to test the system, build it and go live, along with capacity for future growth, warranties, maintenance and service guarantees, equipment replacement and support for up to 20 years.

In the end, there were two bidders: Motorola/MARCS and a partnership of Vasu Communications and EFJohnson.

Cleveland Communications Inc., whose L3 Harris system radios are preferred by county fire chiefs, county sheriff's deputies and Sheriff Phil Stammitti — and already in use to great effect, according to chiefs and first responders in Avon, Avon Lake, Sheffield Lake, Sheffield and North Ridgeville — submitted a "no-bid letter," Roblin said.

CCI had a multimillion-dollar contract to provide county first responders with L3 Harris radios and infrastructure for less than three weeks.

It was signed by former commissioner Matt Lundy and Commissioner Michelle Hung in December 2022, then rescinded by commissioners David Moore and Jeff Riddell the following month over Hung's objection.

CCI's bid was the only one received. Motorola requested a deadline extension but did not end up bidding, and Vasu Communications gave an incomplete bid.

After the fact, Riddell claimed the bidding process was improper. He has failed to give any evidence for his claim either to the Chronicle-Telegram or in two separate criminal investigations by the Lorain County Sheriff's Office and the Ohio Auditor of State's office.

CCI sued Lorain County in Common Pleas Court in January, dismissed it, then refiled it in U.S. District Court in Cleveland in August.

Motorola/MARCS currently leases multiple radio towers in Lorain County, and more would be constructed or upgraded. Connected with the state and already serving the Ohio Department of Transportation, Ohio Department of Natural Resources and State Highway Patrol, it already has access to the required frequencies, Roblin said.

Then there's the cost comparison: The Motorola/MARCS would cost just under $11.4 million to implement, and just under $17.3 million over 20 years, Roblin estimated.

EFJohnson/Vasu would cost $10.7 million to implement, but $26.75 million over 20 years, Roblin estimated.

"MCM is recommending the Motorola proposal," he said, calling it the "best long-term value" with 150,000 users in 77 of Ohio's 88 counties, access to technicians and engineers, 371 current radio towers, "a lock" on Federal Communications Commission licenses and capacity for future growth.

Moore said the key question now is "How are you going to pay for it?"

He said 911 levy money and possibly bonds mixed with cash or financing could be considered, but "those questions have yet to be decided."

The board hired MCM in March to assess the county's radio infrastructure needs for an updated public safety radio communications system. MCM also worked with potential bidders on the process leading to the proposals presented Tuesday.

A past consulting firm paid by the county had recommended CCI's L3 Harris system.

Critics of the commissioners who showed up at Tuesday's meeting weren't surprised by Roblin's announcement, voicing their displeasure when Roblin announced that his company had chosen Motorola/MARCS. They voiced their displeasure with groans and sarcastic laughs.

Critics also said county officials failed to work closely enough with first responders ahead of the proposals.

"It's critical how you pick your committee," Lorain Police Chief Jim McCann told the commissioners.

He said the committee of county officials that took part in the proposal process didn't include any active police or firefighters who will actually use the radio system chosen by the county.

"That's a very big flaw in this committee," McCann said. "It's not a good committee to convince the police and firefighters, to get us on board to convince us we're doing the right thing here. Find a way to convince police and fire that this is the right place to be and go with the system."

The way the entire process was done "turned everyone off," he said.

County Administrator Jeff Armbruster said there would be time for MCM to meet with fire chiefs and police chiefs and present them with the information. In response to a question from Hung, Roblin said he had yet to meet with the sheriff but "I look forward to it."

Aden Fogel, a frequent critic of Moore and Riddell, questioned the price tag on the radio system and why Riddell is wasting money when he promised to "end reckless spending" as part of his 2022 campaign.

Other people present at the meeting clapped for Fogel when he wondered aloud about legal and consulting fees spent by the board, fighting the CCI lawsuits and spending money previous boards had already spent.

"You're gonna put people's lives on the line," critic Deb Coon told Riddell and Moore during public comment time. "Who's in your ear about the MARCS system? You're no experts. You should have called the fire departments."

Coon then suggested the issue was going to cost Moore at the polls next year.

"You're gonna pay for it, Moore, in 2024. No Moore," she said.

Moore said the issue was never about whose handheld radios were preferred.

"We're not getting involved in picking radios," he said, "we're involved in building infrastructure."

"The majority of this board is committed to building the infrastructure for a wireless communication network that will cover our entire county," Moore said after the meeting. "This project will allow local governments to decide which radio they want, while providing coverage they need."
 

Nasby

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Unreal. They’ve been bickering about this for over a year. Then they mention another 24 months before anything really gets going. Hillbillies in politics.
 

wd8chl

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What a joke. Is Elyria paying to have that done? Cause I more expect they are expecting the county to pay for it. It's a fair bet that won't happen, since it wasn't their initiative to move. Especially from a system they just bought 4-5 years ago, and works perfectly fine, certainly better than that 5-city system that only has one site in range of Elyria, up in the extreme NE corner.
 

tweiss3

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Reading between the lines (since they dance around it), they agreed to add sites to MARCS?

I also don't understand the numbers. Article says $13.8M, but the letter says the bid with Motorola was $27M (EFJ was $26M). They mention MARCS kicking in $10M in hardware/maintenance/updates, but the number still don't add up.

Lastly, is this even a proper bid? The letter only mentions 2 bids. Anything we have publicly bid before had to have 3 bids minimum. If 3 bids were not received, we were required to declare an emergency, rebid, and only then could it be awarded. Are they counting the other they awarded then revoked? I would think that would trigger a rebid.

Not saying going to MARCS is a bad thing, but this entire situation has been one mistake after another, with almost nobody following public bid protocol.
 

rcid1971

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Reading between the lines (since they dance around it), they agreed to add sites to MARCS?

I also don't understand the numbers. Article says $13.8M, but the letter says the bid with Motorola was $27M (EFJ was $26M). They mention MARCS kicking in $10M in hardware/maintenance/updates, but the number still don't add up.

Lastly, is this even a proper bid? The letter only mentions 2 bids. Anything we have publicly bid before had to have 3 bids minimum. If 3 bids were not received, we were required to declare an emergency, rebid, and only then could it be awarded. Are they counting the other they awarded then revoked? I would think that would trigger a rebid.

Not saying going to MARCS is a bad thing, but this entire situation has been one mistake after another, with almost nobody following public bid protocol.


I think going to MARCS is a bad thing.
Giving your agencies lesser network priority to state agencies is not a fair trade to your residents.

MARCS has been historically non-responsive to issues with poor or no coverage, the L3 system allowed for coverage quality with a focus locally and by the Lorain agencies directly affected.

MARCS user rates are currently almost double what most systems are that have gone on their own.

The DAS agreement with MARCS is restrictive, and punitive to agencies that don't follow it to the letter of the law. I wouldn't want my agency subject to petty fault finding of DAS attorneys with their own political agenda.

MARCS has botched several high profile network security cases, and left their network less secure than purported. Additionally, the DAS/MARCS bureaucrats have a track record of making wild promises in their sales spiels of which they have not ultimately deliver the end user.

In Lorain County, many of these agencies would have been better keeping Simplex P-25, and will experience worse coverage with MARCS.
 

wd8chl

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Yes, it would be a big mistake to move off of VHF. They have had perfect interop between jurisdictions since the 60's, barring one city that got sold a bill of goods to to 420 MHz in the 80's. Except for that, you could talk to any agency in the entire county with one inexpensive radio by just changing channels. No subscription fees. Now with that same city and a couple of others having been sold an even worse bill of goods to go to a band that has poor propagation, especially into buildings, and has overall coverage issues party due to using P25 phase 2 TDMA, which has an inherent range limitation due to timing issues, and partly because it only has 3 sites in the extreme northeast corner of the county. It will not cover Elyria well. It does not cover Wellington at all. Nada.
Now no one else can talk to that group, and they even can't all talk to each other. As I said, North Ridgeville PD and FD cannot talk to each because of subscription fees. I suspect Avon is in the same boat.
Most of the VHF systems were paid for and maintained by the county, not the departments. If there is a problem, they need to say something. But I listen to most, and nearly all the problems I hear can be chalked up to operator error (using talkaround instead of the repeater, or just a bad radio that they don't want to fix, but keep using anyway). The rest can be chalked up to out-of-town intereference, something that going to 7/800 MHz will not eliminate and maybe even make worse. We know they re-use channels on that band much closer than VHF, and with Lake Erie right here, propagation over the lake is a big deal on all bands, even well up into microwave.
 
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ThePolishDude

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I can tell you, as it is now, most areas north of I-90 will have poor coverage on MARCS, especially in-building. With only two sites in the county, both of which are somewhat to the south, coverage along the lake will suffer. So the two 'lakes' (AL and SL), well, they can forget portable coverage. That's what they are talking about when they say 'vehicular repeaters'. They would need those to have portable coverage, and those have their own share of problems., not the least of which is a complete lack of frequencies to put them on.
Couldn't MARCS set up a simulcast system, similar to the one in Cuyahoga County?
 

wd8chl

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They should have yes.

That's 80% of the reason the county initially went to their own system.
There hasn't been really enough reason to add more sites, usage wise. I suppose it is kind of a catch-22. But really, 7/8/900 MHz propagation is not good for the kind of terrain and density in Lorain Co. It's just hilly enough to make many areas difficult to get into, whereas VHF will sort of bend over the ridge lines and such. And it's been doing a great job of it for over 50 years.
All the county needs is to just start upgrading a few other existing systems to P25-the ones that aren't already-basically most everything south of US20. And Vermilion. But they're weird anyway.
And get rid of all those 15-20 year old CDM's and HT1250's.
 

rcid1971

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There hasn't been really enough reason to add more sites, usage wise. I suppose it is kind of a catch-22. But really, 7/8/900 MHz propagation is not good for the kind of terrain and density in Lorain Co. It's just hilly enough to make many areas difficult to get into, whereas VHF will sort of bend over the ridge lines and such. And it's been doing a great job of it for over 50 years.
All the county needs is to just start upgrading a few other existing systems to P25-the ones that aren't already-basically most everything south of US20. And Vermilion. But they're weird anyway.
And get rid of all those 15-20 year old CDM's and HT1250's.

Agreed on propagation, but there’s been documented coverage issues with MARCS in the northern part of the county, the Bay Village HS hoax proved how serious they need to be about coverage in that area, and DAS blew it off, to date, there’s been no coverage improvement.
 

wd8chl

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Couldn't MARCS set up a simulcast system, similar to the one in Cuyahoga County?

Honestly, simulcast won't fix coverage issues. Multi-site or simulcast, there needs to be a lot more sites for 7/800 than there does on VHF.
To put that in perspective, Elyria PD is, I think, 3 or 4 sites, Lorain PD is 7-sites, on VHF. To get that kind of coverage on 700 will likely take at least that many sites if not more, just for those cities, and of course they will be much more expensive sites to put up, probably by a factor of 5-10 or more.
Again, we can't forget that both of those cities just put in all new infrastructure in the last 2 to 5 years.
 

Chronic

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This is what happens when Fire Chief's want to make the decision of what Radios / Systems they want . Elyria is well know for making bad decisions. They built a new fire station because the Fire Department just had to have it and would not stop crying about it , after it was built they claimed it was not big enough for there ladder truck , now it is unused as a fire station and is now just a glorified storage locker . on top of that , it was built less than a mile away from an existing fire station. The city has / had a rescue truck , Rescue 31 , again the Boys refuse to use it and instead drive a big slow ladder truck to rescue / ambulance chasing situations. Now they want to also be emt's . Just a way for them to push the Union for more money. Who loses , the taxpayer once again will have to pay the fire boys more money and also purchase ambulances. Fire men need to stick with fighting fires , let lifecare handle Emergency medical Service , and let Radio Shops / Techs do there job with the communication equipment. There is more to it than just wants. I bet 90% of the firemen could not even give you a definition of Propagation , but yet they think they are qualified to make a decision on Radios. There are plenty more Blunders made by Elyria City Employes , but i think you can see how it has worked out for them , and the taxpayer is left picking up the bill for there decisions that are not made by professionals in the specific field.
 

wd8chl

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This is what happens when Fire Chief's want to make the decision of what Radios / Systems they want . Elyria is well know for making bad decisions. They built a new fire station because the Fire Department just had to have it and would not stop crying about it , after it was built they claimed it was not big enough for there ladder truck , now it is unused as a fire station and is now just a glorified storage locker . on top of that , it was built less than a mile away from an existing fire station. The city has / had a rescue truck , Rescue 31 , again the Boys refuse to use it and instead drive a big slow ladder truck to rescue / ambulance chasing situations. Now they want to also be emt's . Just a way for them to push the Union for more money. Who loses , the taxpayer once again will have to pay the fire boys more money and also purchase ambulances. Fire men need to stick with fighting fires , let lifecare handle Emergency medical Service , and let Radio Shops / Techs do there job with the communication equipment. There is more to it than just wants. I bet 90% of the firemen could not even give you a definition of Propagation , but yet they think they are qualified to make a decision on Radios. There are plenty more Blunders made by Elyria City Employes , but i think you can see how it has worked out for them , and the taxpayer is left picking up the bill for there decisions that are not made by professionals in the specific field.

Yup. It just keeps coming down to politics instead of what's best. Lorain has very similar problems.
Another epidemic in public safety in general is when it comes to radios, if one is broken, they don't send it in to get fixed. They keep trying to use it, then blame the radio system for it. 'They can't hear me, so the system is broken. We need a new system.' And the problem is likely a broken antenna or dead/old battery, or broken/missing antenna on the truck.
 

tweiss3

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Funny, I was in Lorain county yesterday, and never paid attention before, but I was having trouble receiving MARCS unless I was inside Avon.
 

wd8chl

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Funny, I was in Lorain county yesterday, and never paid attention before, but I was having trouble receiving MARCS unless I was inside Avon.

There are two sites in Lorain Co. One is next to the Grafton correctional facility, and the other is on the tower at the county 911 center next to LCCC.
There is also a site just over the border in Brunswick that covers some of the southern part of the county, and one in New London that covers other parts of the south end.
 
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