G4 looses signal on local system

[cpetraglia]

I have attached a dump of my local system CC. Maybe someone can look at this and see what I cant.

The first table is how it's always been and the second table is how it is now per Pro96Com.

#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1
02,851.01250,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2
03,762.00625,0.01250,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2


#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

As we can see, the 2 entries with the 12.5 bandwidth are gone. This has to be why the G4 is not locking on a control channel. If this is something new with a P25 system, Unication needs to catch up. I have 5 year old scanners that do just fine with it.

 

[mikewazowski]

The first table is how it's always been and the second table is how it is now per Pro96Com.



#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots

00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1

01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1

02,851.01250,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2

03,762.00625,0.01250,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2





#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots

00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1



As we can see, the 2 entries with the 12.5 bandwidth are gone. This has to be why the G4 is not locking on a control channel. If this is something new with a P25 system, Unication needs to catch up. I have 5 year old scanners that do just fine with it.

Is the first table how it used to be and the second table is how it is now?

If so, it appears they dropped the Phase II entries and changed the bandwidth to 6.25khz on the Phase I channels.

Unication might be assuming that 6.25khz bandwidth denotes Phase II bandplans however you should so be able to lock onto the control channel since Phase I and Phase II control channels are exactly the same.

 

[cpetraglia]

I would think the same thing, however I am not a P25 expert. And yes, that's before and after I lost reception. It's funny how it's not affecting my PSR 600, 1095, 1065 or my new Relm P800. They act as if nothing changed. I sure hope Unication can address this as my G4 was the answer to LSM problems on my local system.

 

[mikewazowski]

Do your scanners give you the option of viewing the downloaded bandplan? I know it's possible on Uniden scanners.

I would think that you would still see the control channel but attempts to follow conversations would fail. You would see the talkgroup active on the display but it would quickly disappear when the NAC isn't seen on the voice channel. It would go back and forth until the call was over.

I know Unication hardcodes P25 voice channels to 12.5khz bandwidth. I had a few amateur repeaters set for 25khz bandwidth and the pager refused to decode them. Had to reprogram the repeaters as narrow to solve the problem.

 

[cpetraglia]

What does that mean "hardcodes" ? Is something FW can fix? If not I have a $1000 piece of junk. Thanks for your input. I think we've nailed it. I will give this a little more time for some other folks to chime in. I don't have a clue what these scanners will show. I've never tried. I may end up picking up a second KNG P800. Lots of money for some local monitoring. !!! I had so much trouble with the BT feature on this pager, I have lost some of the affection for it. And with the lack of PII, It is useless for my neighboring systems. I just lost everything I use it for.

 

[mikewazowski]

I mean hardcode as you can't change it through software. It's something the manufacturer needs to fix in the firmware.

I'm pretty sure you're problem is solvable. Just needs some manufacturer intervention. The logs you've submitted should help.

 

[sparklehorse]

Just for giggles have you tried a re-set? "Hold down both side buttons and the top voice playback button at the same time, once the screen goes off and the 3 lights come on release".

.

 

[cpetraglia]

I have tried that, a battery pull, different FW and PPS reloads. It wont work.

 

[jeb2942]

I can duplicate your issue here on this system which shows only 6.25khz spacing.

====== NAC 0xe27 ====== TRIMET ======
rf: syid e27 rfid 1 stid 1 frequency 772.056250 uplink 802.056250
net: syid e27 wacn 92761 frequency 772.056250
secondary control channel(s):
stats: tsbks 10967 crc 0

voice frequency 770.081250 tgid(s) 1777 None 74.9s ago count 74
voice frequency 770.331250 tgid(s) 1767 None 21.9s ago count 76
voice frequency 771.206250 tgid(s) 1767 None 43.4s ago count 61
voice frequency 771.256250 tgid(s) 1763 None 30.8s ago count 85
voice frequency 771.481250 tgid(s) 1769 None 61.7s ago count 84
voice frequency 771.681250 tgid(s) 1765 None 471.3s ago count 28
voice frequency 771.756250 tgid(s) 1769 None 11.2s ago count 79
voice frequency 772.356250 tgid(s) 1767 None 77.3s ago count 99
voice frequency 773.231250 tgid(s) 1777 None 63.1s ago count 100

tbl-id: 0 frequency: 769.000000 step 0.006250 offset 30.000000
tbl-id: 1 frequency: 799.000000 step 0.006250 offset -30.000000
adjacent 774.181250: rfid: 1 stid:4 uplink:804.181250 tbl:0
adjacent 770.281250: rfid: 1 stid:3 uplink:800.281250 tbl:0
adjacent 773.406250: rfid: 1 stid:6 uplink:803.406250 tbl:0
adjacent 770.343750: rfid: 1 stid:2 uplink:800.343750 tbl:0

Sparklehorse, you might add this system for testing to see if you also get the dropped/missing transmissions also some sort of data burst after a lot of transmissions.

 

[Thunderknight]

I can duplicate your issue here on this system which shows only 6.25khz spacing.

I think the issue is the BANDWIDTH is showing 6.25, not the spacing. A 6.25 kHz SPACING makes sense for 700 MHz.

Today I was able to check both APX CPS and Harris RPM to see what "real radio" programming software has. APX CPS has no setting for bandwidth in the channel table. RPM has a bandwidth field in the IDEN table, but at least for what I have (nothing to do with Fairfax) it's all 12.5 kHz and it's greyed out (can't be changed).

I really wonder if they (the sys admin/vendor) actually meant to set the bandwidth to 6.25 on the Fairfax system, or if someone made an error when they changed the table around. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I don't understand how a P25 system could be 6.25 kHz bandwidth, as even a Phase 2 channel is actually 6.25 kHz equivalent, where it is really two slots (talk paths) in a 12.5 kHz channel. It's still a 12.5 kHz channel.

 

[cpetraglia]

I sure appreciate everyone trying to help figure this out. I have to assume that Pro96Com is showing correct information. I run 95-100% decode on the CC and I can run any one of 6 other 700/800 systems and they all show 12.5 KHz along with 4 lines in the Ident. tables. The two lines disappeared 2 nights ago out of the blue. My Relm NeoVision for the KNGP800 has three options for bandwidth. 6.25,12.5 & 25. Mine are all set at 12.5 as I programmed every system from info derived with Pro96Com. Of course the change in Fairfax has only effected the G4.

 

[KevinC]

Don't need to tell you, but that really sucks.

 

[APX8000]

Do me a favor...download Unitrunker....run it on that system. Then post up your results for the main system info, channels and the band plan. I tested my G5 out on a strictly Phase II system and although no talkgroups appear, I can lock on to the control channel and it displays the correct WACN, RFSS and Site. I think their is something with your programming. I know you said you didn't change anything but I want to try to rule everything out.


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[cpetraglia]

I installed Unitrunker and let it run for a while. It won't populate frequencies. I does not show a band plan. My PSR600 is set on the correct CC (856.2625) There are 20 frequencies which is correct. It shows: RFSS=1, Site ID=2, WACN=BEE00, Sys ID=3C9. It does show all frequencies with a 12.5 bandwidth. All these entries are correct in the G4. Heck, this was the first system I installed last April and had always worked. I have this info memorized for this system !! Since there is no other input we can give the PPS, how do I experiment? I could try a totally new profile and start from scratch. My question now is why is Pro96 showing bandwidth of 6.25 and missing the second two lines of data which were always there.

 

[cpetraglia]

I just downloaded the system thru RR and it has all the same info. It is decoding full strength and all freqs. populated. I still don't see anything different than what's programmed in my G4. It still does not show a band plan.

 

[cpetraglia]

I created a new PPS profile and loaded only this system with one zone and one knob position with two TGs. Will not lock on. OUT OF RANGE is all I get. I then programmed my original Profile and all other systems (5) work fine. !!

 

[Thunderknight]

Given that it happened overnight without you changing the programming, and you knew what the frequency table said before and after the change, I think it's safe to say that the system change is the problem. Either

It is really sending a 6.25 bandwidth table and the Unication doesn't know what to do with that;

Or there is something else in the change that Pro96Com is incorrectly displaying as a 6.25 bandwidth (seems unlikely);

Or two things changed - the 6.25 bandwidth and some unknown change, and that other item caused the Unication to stop locking on to the CC. Meaning we are assuming it's the 6.25 change because that is what we can see.

I think this is definitely at the point where Unication tech support needs to weigh in.

You could try posting your logs as a non-G4 question (no double posting) over in the Voice/Control Channel Software forum and see if there is anything else odd that gets discovered.

 

[APX8000]

Enter all the frequencies in the PPS for the system, not just the 4 control/alternate control channels. Leave the WACN BEE00 but change the Site and RFSS to FFFF and let me know if you get it to lock on.


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[cpetraglia]

I have already tied the FFFF part with the RFSS and Site ID. Did not work. I am looking at my PSR600 in analyze mode and it is on the correct (856.2625) CC. It is also receiving this system just fine, with the typical LSM issues. What is the purpose of loading 20 frequencies when I have verified the CC?

 

[cpetraglia]

Enter all the frequencies in the PPS for the system, not just the 4 control/alternate control channels. Leave the WACN BEE00 but change the Site and RFSS to FFFF and let me know if you get it to lock on.


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I tried putting in all frequencies and FF for RFSS and site. It still wont work. It has to be a change to the system the pager cant figure out. I will wait till after the holiday and see if Dave chimes in. With my luck, Fairfax will be the only system in the US that has made this change. If doesn't happen to anyone else, I cant see them writing FW for one customer. They'll need to duplicate these changes to be able to do anything. I put my original profile back in and am listening to system 20 miles away. It's not the pager per say.