GMRS exit strategy: Going to 900MHz DTRs and DLRs

[WPXS472]

I haven't been paying attention to this thread for a while. But, I am still interested in it. So, today, I caught up. I was interested in Chickenhawk56's comments. My DTR's are 410s with the fixed antennas. I took one apart to see how difficult it would be to replace the fixed short one and it didn't look very do able. When I first got them, I got a programming cable and downloaded the software. I got a message saying my radios were too old to be programmed with that software. I don't know where to get the older version. I also bought one of the little keyboard thingies that attaches to the bottom for typing messages, but never used it. I played with mine a while and wasn't impressed with the range at all. The thing that really turned me off was the ready beep you have to wait for before talking. It really got on my nerves. I have a couple of the old Nextel phones with the offsite feature that is similar to the DTRs and I can't stand them either. I was interested to learn that the longer antenna isn't really all that much better. That sort of confirms what I have found with 900 MHz analog, FM handies over the years. I still like the longer antennas better, probably because they look more like a real antenna than that 3 inch stubby. Nice to hear that some folks do like them, though. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[n1das]

I haven't been paying attention to this thread for a while. But, I am still interested in it. So, today, I caught up. I was interested in Chickenhawk56's comments. My DTR's are 410s with the fixed antennas. I took one apart to see how difficult it would be to replace the fixed short one and it didn't look very do able. When I first got them, I got a programming cable and downloaded the software. I got a message saying my radios were too old to be programmed with that software. I don't know where to get the older version. I also bought one of the little keyboard thingies that attaches to the bottom for typing messages, but never used it. I played with mine a while and wasn't impressed with the range at all. The thing that really turned me off was the ready beep you have to wait for before talking. It really got on my nerves. I have a couple of the old Nextel phones with the offsite feature that is similar to the DTRs and I can't stand them either. I was interested to learn that the longer antenna isn't really all that much better. That sort of confirms what I have found with 900 MHz analog, FM handies over the years. I still like the longer antennas better, probably because they look more like a real antenna than that 3 inch stubby. Nice to hear that some folks do like them, though. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

You can upgrade the firmware in your old DTRs. Since you have some old DTRs, it's a two step process where you first upgrade the firmware to a newer version as an intermediate upgrade and then upgrade again to the latest version. You can't upgrade directly from the oldest to newest firmware in a single step. The firmware updating instructions must be followed to the letter to ensure a successful update.
Motorola DTR Radios - Start Here

You also need the USB flash update cable (NNTN6367A). This cable has been discontinued and is NLA, so eBay and Google are your friends. You can also build your own cable.
Build your own Flash Cable

I recall the last firmware update was in 2011 so DTRs manufactured post-2011 should have the latest firmware. I decided to go with all new DTRs since mine are long term keepers and I wanted to have all the latest updates. The latest firmware enables Manager Mode in the DTR410 which previously was only available in the DTR650. The latest firmware improved a few other features and allows you to adjust the volume of the Talk Permit Tone (TPT). Too bad it doesn't allow you to customize the TPT to something less obnoxious like the TPT in the DLRs.

More DTR information:
Professional Radios

 

[amphibian]

I hope that GMRS is never moved to unlicensed status. In fact, after starting the USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association, and setting up statewide and nationwide linking system, I'm hoping that we can convince FCC within this year that GMRS is just as entitled to digital communications as any other part of the frequency spectrum is. If others are allowed to take part in new technologies available so should the GMRS people be able to.

I think the people of the GMRS world are going to see some major changes in the months, years to come....and I don't think changing it to non-licensed will be one of them... We all spent too much money on repeaters, heliax, antennas, mobile, etc...to get here to have it turn out like Amateur or CB 11 meter bands. Nothing of good quality ever comes from free and making GMRS License free.... JMHO

 

[jonwienke]

I don't see why there should be any connection between licensing status and whether or not digital is allowed on the frequencies.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I hope that GMRS is never moved to unlicensed status. In fact, after starting the USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association, and setting up statewide and nationwide linking system, I'm hoping that we can convince FCC within this year that GMRS is just as entitled to digital communications as any other part of the frequency spectrum is. If others are allowed to take part in new technologies available so should the GMRS people be able to.

I think the people of the GMRS world are going to see some major changes in the months, years to come....and I don't think changing it to non-licensed will be one of them... We all spent too much money on repeaters, heliax, antennas, mobile, etc...to get here to have it turn out like Amateur or CB 11 meter bands. Nothing of good quality ever comes from free and making GMRS License free.... JMHO

What is the "USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association, " ?

 

[amphibian]

What is the "USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association, " ?

An association formed for the representation and advancement of GMRS Licensees and GMRS in general. Also a central place to obtain the information about statewide & nation wide linking for those that wish to have such services and/or include their repeater(s) in the linking system for others to use. And, a association that will help pay for the installation, repair and maintenance or GMRS Repeaters from the small membership
dues that are collected each year. Repeaters, heliax, antennas, towers, installation, etc... are too expensive generally for one person. So now GMRS Licensees will have the same opportunities available, when & where it can, as others that have Associations and local club groups that collect membership dues and use those dues to help with the cost of their new repeaters for use.

Most all sectors of the communications spectrum have their own association that attempt to represent it's licensed user when happenings occur at FCC that affect their particular group within rule making or equipment classification, etc.... Like Amateurs have ARRL, Public Safety have APCO, etc... GMRS licensees will now have that same representation.... The USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association.

 

[jeepsandradios]

What is the "USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association, " ?

I was going to ask the same. A google search brings in no results. I am a member of "mygmrs.com" and there is some valuable info on the site, however a very specific site to look at more indepth info, verify real repeaters and not 2 BF88's with a repeater controller would be a good start. there are numerous repeaters listed that dont work, or never have.

 

[n1das]

An association formed for the representation and advancement of GMRS Licensees and GMRS in general. Also a central place to obtain the information about statewide & nation wide linking for those that wish to have such services and/or include their repeater(s) in the linking system for others to use. And, a association that will help pay for the installation, repair and maintenance or GMRS Repeaters from the small membership
dues that are collected each year. Repeaters, heliax, antennas, towers, installation, etc... are too expensive generally for one person. So now GMRS Licensees will have the same opportunities available, when & where it can, as others that have Associations and local club groups that collect membership dues and use those dues to help with the cost of their new repeaters for use.

Most all sectors of the communications spectrum have their own association that attempt to represent it's licensed user when happenings occur at FCC that affect their particular group within rule making or equipment classification, etc.... Like Amateurs have ARRL, Public Safety have APCO, etc... GMRS licensees will now have that same representation.... The USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association.

How is linking of GMRS repeaters accomplished? If it's done by RF, it can only be done in-band, i.e., only on the GMRS channels. The GMRS rules prohibit interconnection, i.e., connection to the public switched telephone network (PSTN) aka "phone patch". Connection through the internet and using some sort of VoIP application is more of a gray area. If digital modulation such as DMR or NXDN were allowed on GMRS it would make it real easy to link repeaters together. I have wanted to use digital modulation on GMRS for voice and data but I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon.

The majority of my use of GMRS over the years has been for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. I've successfully moved those operations to 900MHz using the DTRs and DLRs and enjoy using digital operation w/FHSS.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

How is linking of GMRS repeaters accomplished? If it's done by RF, it can only be done in-band, i.e., only on the GMRS channels. The GMRS rules prohibit interconnection, i.e., connection to the public switched telephone network (PSTN) aka "phone patch". Connection through the internet and using some sort of VoIP application is more of a gray area. If digital modulation such as DMR or NXDN were allowed on GMRS it would make it real easy to link repeaters together. I have wanted to use digital modulation on GMRS for voice and data but I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon.

The majority of my use of GMRS over the years has been for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. I've successfully moved those operations to 900MHz using the DTRs and DLRs and enjoy using digital operation w/FHSS.

You can link via Internet.

There is no FCC restriction on linking repeaters together. That has been beaten to death in discussion and even in opinion of FCC personnel. The connection to the PSTN is probably a moot point as the PSTN no longer exists and the FCC acknowledges this fact. The rationale for the PSTN rule was to prevent toll call avoidance. How many still know what a toll call was?

As far as digital, there needs to be a concerted effort on the part of GMRS licensees to prod the FCC for modification of the rules to accept a standard. DMR is a non proprietary international standard with best product availability.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[n1das]

You can link via Internet.

There is no FCC restriction on linking repeaters together. That has been beaten to death in discussion and even in opinion of FCC personnel. The connection to the PSTN is probably a moot point as the PSTN no longer exists and the FCC acknowledges this fact. The rationale for the PSTN rule was to prevent toll call avoidance. How many still know what a toll call was?

As far as digital, there needs to be a concerted effort on the part of GMRS licensees to prod the FCC for modification of the rules to accept a standard. DMR is a non proprietary international standard with best product availability.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

OK thanks for the update about linking repeaters together.

I agree DMR would the non-proprietary digital standard to use if digital were allowed on GMRS.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

OK thanks for the update about linking repeaters together.



I agree DMR would the non-proprietary digital standard to use if digital were allowed on GMRS.

P25 would work as well but GMRS has the best migration plan. As DMR popularity increases, repeater owners voluntarily switch from wide to narrow which leaves the extra 12.5 kHz useable and eventually has the ability to increase the number of useable repeater pairs by a factor of 4…but that's just my assessment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[amphibian]

How is linking of GMRS repeaters accomplished? If it's done by RF, it can only be done in-band, i.e., only on the GMRS channels. The GMRS rules prohibit interconnection, i.e., connection to the public switched telephone network (PSTN) aka "phone patch". Connection through the internet and using some sort of VoIP application is more of a gray area. If digital modulation such as DMR or NXDN were allowed on GMRS it would make it real easy to link repeaters together. I have wanted to use digital modulation on GMRS for voice and data but I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon.

The majority of my use of GMRS over the years has been for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. I've successfully moved those operations to 900MHz using the DTRs and DLRs and enjoy using digital operation w/FHSS.

Yes it could be done by RF....but what a nightmare that would be... keeping up with all the repeaters like what we have placed in service within the last three months.... wow, I wouldn't want to take that task on doing by RF for sure....lol

VOIP, has opened the door for a lot of capabilities. And, asterisk software back in the beginning of VOIP, helped to open that door for those of us that needed a great "open source" solution.

And as far a DTR's or DLR's, I agree 100% that it is past due for the GMRS Licensees. That is one of the reaason of starting the USGMRS Association... Tired of not having a good representation.... We should have had access to these types of radios years ago....

 

[amphibian]

P25 would work as well but GMRS has the best migration plan. As DMR popularity increases, repeater owners voluntarily switch from wide to narrow which leaves the extra 12.5 kHz useable and eventually has the ability to increase the number of useable repeater pairs by a factor of 4…but that's just my assessment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, IMHO and that of some others in our group, right now P25 would not be cost effective at this time for use in the GMRS market... but DLR, would fit the bill. The initial cost though for some to switch out their existing equipment and go DLR is one of the major concerns that we are receiving right now. Based on the forty some odd emails I get daily the major question is that many think that if FCC were to modify their rules today that they would have to buy all new equipment by Monday next week, and that is just not true... Again another reason to have a great central place that covers these topics.

Our Association is new, about three months in the making, but it has been gaining momentum like there is no tomorrow... Hopefully here in a few weeks I can have the website pages completed on fully operational. Coming Soon site should be and will be a great place for GMRS Licensees where they can gain the vital information they seek.. Between getting all these new repeaters in, programmed up and then shipped out...it's been busy to say the least. mygmrs.com shows all of our new repeaters, has some great information on its site just like this one does.... Our Association website hopes to bring all these together within one location for the Licensee....

Thank you for asking what we are....

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

P25 would work as well but GMRS has the best migration plan. As DMR popularity increases, repeater owners voluntarily switch from wide to narrow which leaves the extra 12.5 kHz useable and eventually has the ability to increase the number of useable repeater pairs by a factor of 4…but that's just my assessment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DMR is narrowband for sure but actually; going to narrowband buys nothing in GMRS as far as more repeater pairs because the 12.5 KHz "interstitial's" are where the FRS and Shared FRS/GMRS channels are located. The rules don't permit repeaters on those channels.

That said, going to DMR will increase the number of simultaneous talk paths per channel. So you can have one time slot for local and one for linked wide area. That would be very cool. And at only the cost of one repeater per site.

I might add, P25 is pretty long in tooth and although can be linked economically, it buys you none of the flexibility of DMR. It is really pretty old technology.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Unfortunately, IMHO and that of some others in our group, right now P25 would not be cost effective at this time for use in the GMRS market... but DLR, would fit the bill. The initial cost though for some to switch out their existing equipment and go DLR is one of the major concerns that we are receiving right now. Based on the forty some odd emails I get daily the major question is that many think that if FCC were to modify their rules today that they would have to buy all new equipment by Monday next week, and that is just not true... Again another reason to have a great central place that covers these topics.

Our Association is new, about three months in the making, but it has been gaining momentum like there is no tomorrow... Hopefully here in a few weeks I can have the website pages completed on fully operational. Coming Soon site should be and will be a great place for GMRS Licensees where they can gain the vital information they seek.. Between getting all these new repeaters in, programmed up and then shipped out...it's been busy to say the least. mygmrs.com shows all of our new repeaters, has some great information on its site just like this one does.... Our Association website hopes to bring all these together within one location for the Licensee....

Thank you for asking what we are....

I am assuming where you say DLR you really mean DMR??

 

[amphibian]

I am assuming where you say DLR you really mean DMR??

So much going on around here that I didn't catch it...Thank you...

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I might add, P25 is pretty long in tooth and although can be linked economically, it buys you none of the flexibility of DMR. It is really pretty old technology.

First and second generation P25 equipment is coming down in price and sometimes can be had at lower costs than comparable DMR equipment. The only repeater I've been able to find with a comparable receiver in analog to the Quantar is the MTR2000. I could make the assumption the MTR3000's receiver is on par…but I can't order one to find out anymore so I guess I'll just have to wait until one walks in requiring some TLC.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

First and second generation P25 equipment is coming down in price and sometimes can be had at lower costs than comparable DMR equipment. The only repeater I've been able to find with a comparable receiver in analog to the Quantar is the MTR2000. I could make the assumption the MTR3000's receiver is on par…but I can't order one to find out anymore so I guess I'll just have to wait until one walks in requiring some TLC.

The MTR2000 can be converted to an MTR3000. I don't know how economically the conversion can be done in the secondary market.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[Project25_MASTR]

The MTR2000 can be converted to an MTR3000. I don't know how economically the conversion can be done in the secondary market.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Motorola had a ton of of those MTR3000 upgrade kits laying around because they didn't sell very well. They were a significant cost and once you factored in the initial alignment of the MTR2000 (to ensure proper operation), the upgrade, and post upgrade alignment you were into to the "upgrade" for $400 or $500 less than a brand new MTR3000 but your warranty only covered the receiver, exciter and SCM and not the (possibly) 17 year old PA, power supply, etc.

On a similar note, those upgrade kits sat on the shelves for so long that you need CPS 10.0 or older just to upgrade the firmware to something usable with CPS13.0 and newer in order to enable the station. Oldest CPS on MOL currently is 12.0. (Caused a big headache for me a few months back).

So with last day to place orders for the MTR3000 (VHF and UHF R1) being yesterday, Feb 28, 2017 and last day of fulfillment from Motorola being March 31, 2017…I think a good portion of those upgrade kits will become spare parts to get the units through EOL in 2024.

 

[n1das]

I would LOVE to be able to legally use digital modulation on GMRS but I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon.

I migrated my local on-site simplex type operations to 900MHz with my DTRs and they are working EXCELLENT. I also have no need for VHF MURS as long as I have the DTRs and/or DLRs. Even though my wife is not a ham, she loves using them with me when we are out shopping or doing stuff with friends.

I am keeping my GMRS capability for when I need wider area coverage and using only good Part 90/95 commercial gear. I have DMR, P25, and 12.5k and 6.25k NXDN capability. I would love to be able to use digital on GMRS if I could do so legally.