GMRS exit strategy: Going to 900MHz DTRs and DLRs

[amphibian]

I would LOVE to be able to legally use digital modulation on GMRS but I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon.

I migrated my local on-site simplex type operations to 900MHz with my DTRs and they are working EXCELLENT. I also have no need for VHF MURS as long as I have the DTRs and/or DLRs. Even though my wife is not a ham, she loves using them with me when we are out shopping or doing stuff with friends.

I am keeping my GMRS capability for when I need wider area coverage and using only good Part 90/95 commercial gear. I have DMR, P25, and 12.5k and 6.25k NXDN capability. I would love to be able to use digital on GMRS if I could do so legally.

I would love to have digital on GMRS also, along with the others that are signing up for membership in the Association... Hopefully that will be something to come about this year... Wished it was approved already as we are getting ready to order about 300 repeaters and would love for them to be digital..... Would be a much better use of spectrum and a lot easier for networking if they were digital....

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I would love to have digital on GMRS also, along with the others that are signing up for membership in the Association... Hopefully that will be something to come about this year... Wished it was approved already as we are getting ready to order about 300 repeaters and would love for them to be digital..... Would be a much better use of spectrum and a lot easier for networking if they were digital....

DMR repeaters are usually dual mode analog/digital, so you can use them in analog mode using RTCM ALLSTAR until such time the FCC can be petitioned to allow DMR. After that point in time, all subscribers would need to be programmed or replaced with DMR as operating dual mode over a linked network with IPSC is difficult/impossible. During the analog period, any existing analog repeaters could access the system via RTCM ALSTAR.

 

[amphibian]

DMR repeaters are usually dual mode analog/digital, so you can use them in analog mode using RTCM ALLSTAR until such time the FCC can be petitioned to allow DMR. After that point in time, all subscribers would need to be programmed or replaced with DMR as operating dual mode over a linked network with IPSC is difficult/impossible. During the analog period, any existing analog repeaters could access the system via RTCM ALSTAR.

We are aware of that fact and have considered the possibilities of dual mode, but for right now we are committed with the current equipment we have and have on order, then once digital is approved we will work to replace with digital as we need to.

As far as the AlstarLink & EchoLink go, for what they do for the Amateur world is great for them, but on my network those two formats are not allowed. Our system allows for greater flexibility and does not require such expensive interface devices and because of that when it's time for transitioning should not be an issue when the time comes... Thank you though for your suggestion...

 

[N4GIX]

The best "ham friendly price" for a Motorola SLR 5000 repeater is $2,000 + shipping.
https://www.motorolasolutions.com/e.../slr-5000-series-repeater.html#tabproductinfo

The BridgeCom C-Bridge for expanded 30 repeater network coverage is $2295 + shipping.
https://www.bridgecomsystems.com/co.../digital-mobile-radio-dmr?variant=23459665927

 

[n1das]

The best "ham friendly price" for a Motorola SLR 5000 repeater is $2,000 + shipping.
https://www.motorolasolutions.com/e.../slr-5000-series-repeater.html#tabproductinfo

The BridgeCom C-Bridge for expanded 30 repeater network coverage is $2295 + shipping.
https://www.bridgecomsystems.com/co.../digital-mobile-radio-dmr?variant=23459665927

$1975 plus shipping for an SLR5700 with digital only and analog only modes. Add $200 for the entitlement license to add Dynamic Mixed mode operation. IP Site Connect will not work when operating in Dynamic Mixed mode. Linking requires operating in digital mode only. No digital/analog mixed mode operation is available when a MOTOTRBO repeater is linked.

I owned an SLR5700 recently and had it operating on the 440 ham band. The SLR5700 is a great repeater. I recently sold it to an owner of several repeaters on the DMR-MARC network after I got my fleet of DTR radios. The new owner plans to use it to replace an XPR8400 repeater that is failing.

I also have a Hytera DMR repeater that I was using on GMRS in analog only mode. A nice repeater but a waste of a DMR repeater on GMRS because of no digital modulation allowed on GMRS. I took the Hytera repeater off GMRS because of my "exit" from GMRS to 900MHz and used it to replace the 440 DMR ham repeater. Hytera vs Motorola doesn't matter in this case because it is operating as a standalone repeater. I might link it to a friend's repeaters given that he's using all Hytera repeaters.

Selling the SLR5700 paid for my fleet of all new DTR650 radios and accessories.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[KA9JYO]

good article

I have been using some 900MHz DLR1060 handhelds over the past year and they have working great. I recently picked up some Motorola DTR650 handhelds to add to my collection. I've been bitten by the 900MHz digital bug because they have worked so well.

These radios have worked EXCELLENT and well enough that they are replacing my use of GMRS/FRS for local on-site communications. I still have GMRS in my UHF Part 90/95 commercial handhelds but GMRS is no longer my default mode for local on-site non-HAM personal communications.

DTR series:
DTR On-Site Digital Two-Way Radios - Motorola Solutions USA - Motorola Solutions
I've known about the DTRs since they first came out around 2006. I was interested in them but couldn't justify them at the time. I also thought the DTR series radios sort of faded away over the years as the 900MHz commercial market fizzled but no, the DTRs appear to still be alive and well from Motorola. Some DTR accessories are NLA but the DTRs still are current product from Motorola and on their 3rd generation.

The DTR650 handhelds I recently picked up are factory brand new Gen3 units. I decided to go with new units to have all of the updates and a warranty instead of taking my chances with old used and beat up units on EBay. They are planned to be long term keepers.

DTR models:
DTR410: DTR410 Digital Two-way Radio - Motorola Solutions
DTR550: DTR550 Digital Two-way Radio - Motorola Solutions
DTR650: DTR650 Portable Two-Way Radio - Motorola Solutions
I had thought the DTR650 had been discontinued but found it's on the wrong page somewhere on Moto's website.

DLR series:
DLR Series Digital Portable Radios - Motorola Solutions
DLR1060 - Motorola Solutions

DTR/DLR compatibility and programming:
The DTRs work with the new DLR series out of the box using their factory default programming. The DTRs and DLRs can also be customized via CPS to set up private groups and 1 to 1 contacts and to tweak some feature settings. The Business Radio CPS is available as a free download from Motorola and programs all of their current business radio models. Programming cables are a separate purchase (about $40 each) and are readily available.

Note that the CPS is not needed to use DTRs and DLRs right out of the box with their factory default programming. Just charge the batteries up and then turn 'em on and go!

GMRS exit strategy:
The DTRs and DLRs are part of my exit strategy from GMRS since we know GMRS will likely get de-licensed someday and become a bubble pack only service. Experience with the DLRs and DTRs got me thinking about how I've used GMRS over the years and maybe there's something better that I could use instead and regardless of whether or not GMRS remains a licensed service. I've been GMRS licensed since 1992, long before the creation of FRS in 1996 and the ensuing bubble pack invasion which followed. When it comes right down to it, more than 99% of my use of GMRS over the years with good Part 90/95 commercial gear has always been for local simplex use. I have owned and maintained a few GMRS repeaters over the years but overall they haven't had a lot of use. The vast majority of my use of GMRS has always been for local simplex use with family and friends. After using my DLR1060 radios for the past year, I'm totally hooked on the DLRs and now the DTRs because they have actually been working equal or BETTER compared to GMRS simplex with 4W Part 90/95 commercial handhelds. I recently picked up some DTR650 radios after using the DLRs and getting bit by the 900MHz digital bug. I intend to stay GMRS licensed but now that I've "graduated" to the DTRs and DLRs I really could care less about GMRS and whether GMRS remains a licensed service. I will still have GMRS capability but 900MHz FHSS digital with the DTRs and DLRs are quickly taking over as my default mode for local on-site non-HAM personal communications.

I recommend checking out the DTRs and DLRs if you are interested in the technology and looking for an alternative to GMRS/FRS for local on-site type use. IMHO the DTRs are sort of an orphan child from Motorola and the technology seems to be under-utilized and under-appreciated. Motorola has gem of a product for their intended use. The more I use them the more I like them and don't mind getting away from GMRS and using the DTRs and DLRs full time for my local on-site simplex use.

Have fun!

I appreciate your comments, and agree with the 900Mhz digital, I use the old cell nextel with direct talk, love them. Carlos KA9JYO

 

[KB7MIB]

So, what is the average price for a DTR650? I looked at the websites of two dealers here in the Phoenix metro area, and there are no prices listed.

There's an old saying, "If you have to ask about the price, you can't afford it."

John
Peoria, AZ

 

[Project25_MASTR]

So, what is the average price for a DTR650? I looked at the websites of two dealers here in the Phoenix metro area, and there are no prices listed.

There's an old saying, "If you have to ask about the price, you can't afford it."

John
Peoria, AZ

Check Amazon…they'll have some of the better pricing.

 

[KA9JYO]

Also eBay have them. The newer DLR 1060 sells for $219 has better features, more privacy than DTR 650, also are smaller

 

[n1das]

Also eBay have them. The newer DLR 1060 sells for $219 has better features, more privacy than DTR 650, also are smaller

The DLRs are great radios too. Don't overlook the DLRs if you're looking at the DTRs.

Interestingly enough I went the other way and went from a new model radio (DLR1060) to a model (DTR650) that's been on the market for over 10 years. Some of the DTR accessories have gone end of life and are NLA but DTR radios and batteries for them are still in production and are readily available. I would like to see Motorola someday refresh the DTRs with a new model that cleans up a few things that people complain about with the DTRs and add features of the DLRs. Maybe call it a DTR750?

My DTR650 radios and batteries were manufactured in October 2016. I decided to step up to the plate and get all factory new DTRs and accessories because they are long term keepers and I wanted them to have all updates done to date including the latest firmware. I didn't want to take any chances with used DTRs on eBay. I sold my pair of DLR1060 radios after getting my DTR650 radios. I became hooked on the DTRs after owning a pair of DLRs for a year because they have worked so well.

The features between the two are different but not necessarily better. The DTRs can do things the DLRs can't do and vice versa. Motorola hasn't done a very good job of marketing the DTRs and they have been almost forgotten about. The DTRs have been largely under-utilized and under-appreciated. They are sort of an orphan child from Motorola. The DTRs were probably way ahead of their time when they first came on the market. They are still in production after more than 10 years and Motorola seems to have no intention of discontinuing them anytime soon.

The DLRs appear to be intended as a replacement for the popular CLS1110 and CLS1410 UHF analog radios. Accessories for the DLRs and CLS series are compatible for the most part. The chargers for each are compatible with a few minor differences. The DLRs seem to make sense for Motorola's target market. For many users the DTRs may be too much radio for them in terms of features and they would be better off with the simplicity of the DLRs. The very small size of the DLRs is also a plus.

In my case I went the other way and stepped up to the DTRs from the DLRs.

 

[n1das]

UHF analog CLS series:
https://www.motorolasolutions.com/e...adios/on-site-business-radios/cls-series.html
I see a lot of these radios in use in retail stores and restaurants. The DLRs seem to be aimed at this market.

DLR series:
https://www.motorolasolutions.com/e...business-radios/dlr-series-digital-radio.html

DTR series:
https://www.motorolasolutions.com/e...adios/on-site-business-radios/dtr-series.html
https://www.motorolasolutions.com/e...os/portable-radios/dtr650.html#tabproductinfo

DTR650 audio test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaNdMWPmVZI

 

[bill4long]

Too expensive. The Baofeng GMRS-1 are cheap and work great.

 

[KA9JYO]

Nextel i355

LOL. Looks can be deceiving.

The DTRs remind me of the NEXTEL i355 phones my wife and I had years ago. Not only in looks but functionality and their accessories. The same battery and charger are used. I think they share a common design. The i355's off-network DirectTalk feature used the same system as the DTRs except it was purposely coded differently so they are not compatible. Probably was a marketing thing. The speaker mic and headset accessories used with Motorola's other business radios (RDX series, etc.) all work with the DTRs and DLRs.

I wouldn't exactly call these a child's toy.

I use the Nextel i355, they use an excellent tech and they are private, you need that when you are in crowds like Disney or a cruise ship, they are only 600mw but they perform as well as a 4watt UHF analog.

 

[n1das]

I use the Nextel i355, they use an excellent tech and they are private, you need that when you are in crowds like Disney or a cruise ship, they are only 600mw but they perform as well as a 4watt UHF analog.

Agree 100%. And 100% digital too. I have used i355 phones in DT mode before and that's when I learned of the DTRs years ago. The DT feature in the i355 actually transmits at 890mW (+29.5dBm), same as the DTRs. The legal limit is 1 W (+30dBm) for a FHSS system on 900MHz operating under FCC 15.247.

The DT feature can be monitored by other DT capable iDEN phones when operating in DT mode so I wouldn't call it private at all. The 1 to 1 private mode requires entering 1 plus the area code and phone number of the other iDEN phone operating in DT mode. This forms the 11 digit ESN for each phone to work with. This is why DT capable phones had to be activated at least once on an iDEN network in order to use the DT feature. Private mode is an ID based system and DT phones only respond when the correct ID is received. All other DT phones on the channel (hopset) ignore private mode traffic not meant for them. So while not encrypted DT mode can be made very secure.

It seems like the DT feature is an early version of what later became the DTRs. The DTRs added a bunch of features and reorganized the channel setup into public and private groups. In addition to private 1 to 1 calling like private mode with DT phones you can have multiple private groups in the DTRs.

I haven't totally made my GMRS-exit due to the new GMRS rules keeping GMRS as a licensed service. The DTRs are great for what they were intended for. My DTRs definitely are keepers though.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[JASII]

GMRS Exit Strategy: Going To 900MHz DTRs And DLRs

...The DT feature in the i355 actually transmits at 890mW (+29.5dBm), same as the DTRs...

That is interesting. Are any of the other Nextels at 890mW (+29.5dBm)? I thought that they we all about 600 mW.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

That is interesting. Are any of the other Nextels at 890mW (+29.5dBm)? I thought that they we all about 600 mW.

So a company bought out the Nextel name and is selling an i330 on AT&T today. Interesting little product but it does not have DC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[n1das]

That is interesting. Are any of the other Nextels at 890mW (+29.5dBm)? I thought that they we all about 600 mW.

I'm not sure about the NEXTEL side of things. IIRC it was 600mW, including the DirectConnect (DC) feature. A lookup of the FCC ID for the i330 would tell you. The off-network DirectTalk (DT) feature operates at 890 mW (+29.5dBm).

Note that the NEXTEL DirectConnect feature is not to be confused with the off-network DirectTalk feature. They are 2 different things. The DC feature uses the iDEN network (i.e., NEXTEL) whereas the DT feature operates in the 900MHz band using FHSS under Part 15. The DT feature operates under FCC 15.247.



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[n1das]

DTR and DLR FCC type acceptance information:

DTR410 MOTOtalk: https://fccid.io/AZ489FT5842
DTR510, 550, 610, 650-MOTOtalk: https://fccid.io/AZ489FT5852
DLR: https://fccid.io/AZ489FT5870

 

[fireradio]

I'm interested in the DLR series radios for those times when my larger commercial radios are too big to lug around on shopping trips, etc.

Anyone have a recording or video of the talk permit tones on the DLRs? Just curious what they're like compared to the DTRs.

Thanks!

 

[n1das]

I'm interested in the DLR series radios for those times when my larger commercial radios are too big to lug around on shopping trips, etc.

Anyone have a recording or video of the talk permit tones on the DLRs? Just curious what they're like compared to the DTRs.

Thanks!

I don't have any recordings of DLR tones but they are a LOT less annoying compared to the DTRs. You can tailor the volume of the tones in the CPS if you want. You can also disable them if you want. The DLRs voice announces the channel when you change channels and you can customize the announcement through the CPS. You can create your own custom voice channel announcements with the CPS if you want. You can set them up to say "Maintenance", "Security", "Housekeeping", etc. instead of the default "Channel One", "Channel Two", etc. You probably can find YouTube videos of DLR demos and hear what the tones and voice announcements sound like.

I previously owned a pair of DLRs (DLR1060) for a year before getting my DTRs. While the DLRs are a new model series for Motorola's on-site business radios, I went the other way and sold my DLRs after getting an older model (DTR650) that's been on the market for over 10 years. The DLRs were great and I loved the small size but I was outgrowing them in terms of capabilities. For many business users, the DTRs are too much "radio" for the average business user. The DLRs are the answer to that because they are so simple to use and makes sense for the target market. I see a lot of the old CLS series UHF analog radios used in restaurants and retail stores and the DLRs appear to be aimed at this market. For these users the DLRs offer a way to step up to digital operation and gain a bunch of very useful features.

Check out Motorola's Quick Start Guide for the DLRs. The PDF file does a good job of explaining the cool features.
http://www.buytwowayradios.com/products/resources/Motorola/DLR1020-Quick-Guide-4.pdf

Good luck.