GRMS/FRS Questions

[swen_out_west]

I'm not suggesting that you were doing anything improper. Quite the opposite.If you were using an FRS radio on a shared frequency, all is good. I'll assume that it was quiet when you began using it. Nothing wrong with that. Someone else coming on and telling you that they have dominion over the channel? That is incorrect. It is shared and you are perfectly within your right to use it as long and you didn't disrupt their conversation.

Actually to fess up I was purposely jumping in with them to just have someone to chat with. The ironic thing about it, is that it apparently was designed to connect the valley. The day before I heard the same guy complaining that nobody uses it anymore. Then when I jumped in the next day he gets all bent out of shape.

I'm still confused how if it is a shared frequency, I am in violation if it picks up my signal and rebroadcasts it at 5w (those channels are .5 watts FRS/5 watts GRMS). I didn't rebroadcast it. They did.

 

[bharvey2]

Actually to fess up I was purposely jumping in with them to just have someone to chat with. The ironic thing about it, is that it apparently was designed to connect the valley. The day before I heard the same guy complaining that nobody uses it anymore. Then when I jumped in the next day he gets all bent out of shape.

I'm still confused how if it is a shared frequency I am in violation if it picks up my signal and rebroadcasts it at 5w. I didn't rebroadcast it. They did.

You can talk to people outside of your group or family. There's nothing wrong with that. Think of it like a face to face conversation: depending upon the scenario, your interaction may or may not be desired. The "store and forward" repeater that they have in place is likely a "no-no". Since it sounds like they're being boneheads, it might be easier to move to another shared frequency and let them bury themselves should they get caught. That way no one can accuse you of illegal operation of the aforementioned repeater.

 

[swen_out_west]

So, lol (it is so hard to get an answer when everyone is set on Licenses and by the book definitions, lol) As well as pushing the 'get your Ham license' agenda.

If total strangers were using a FRS/GRMS shared Channel and some bonehead GRMS licensed person had a portable/mobile 'Store and Forward' repeater set up rebroadcasting it at 5 w. The person who has never used a radio in his/her life who stopped and bought a $10 POS FRS radio at WallyWorld, would not be in violation.

 

[jonwienke]

I'm still confused how if it is a shared frequency, I am in violation if it picks up my signal and rebroadcasts it at 5w (those channels are .5 watts FRS/5 watts GRMS). I didn't rebroadcast it. They did.

You're not in violation, they are. If they cared about other people on "their" repeater, they should put a tone on the input.

 

[swen_out_west]

You're not in violation, they are. If they cared about other people on "their" repeater, they should put a tone on the input.

We are on the same page, now.


Now... What if 'they' don't care..I understand that if 'they' do it purposely they are in violation. I understand someone of the two groups is going to be in violation of FCC regulations (Yes, Big Brother is watching, lol). I'm just making sure that grandma who has never used a radio isn't the one being prosecuted.

On that note: from my understanding on those frequencies, the FCC will usually give a cease and desist order first to the Bonehead using a store and repeat device on a shared FRS/GRMS frequency. The same way they usually did on CB frequencies with people running linear amps. (Yes, I understand the key word is usually, let's not get hung up on that, please)

 

[swen_out_west]

My question has pretty much been answered, and it's pretty much what I had assumed going in to it. Everything from here is just making sure I have all angles of my original question answered.

I appreciate the help and am extremely apologetic in the difficulties of getting on the same page.

To be honest, think about this scenario. You have a shared GRMS/FRS frequency being used on a big lake and word of mouth let's it be known that the sportfisher's use a shared FRS/GRMS freq. One of the larger vessels just happens to be set up with a store and repeat. It just so happens that someone with a 500 mw FRS radio get's picked up and broadcasted further than he normally would be. Yes, they all have a VHF marine radio, so that's not a problem for Navigational Purposes. Just looking to set up some kind of chat line on a big lake which would clear you off of the VHF Marine freqs and anyone could stop at Wally World before they hit the boatramp and pick up a $10 radio. It's still hit and miss, but it would get Joe Blow in communication with others and free up the clutter on the VHF Marine Channel that they normally use.

Yes, all of this questioning was because my mind was pondering something that would be kind of cool.

You never know, the next time they come up they might have actually gotten their GRMS license and bought a better radio to extend their hit and miss issues. Instead of people being stuck on 'get your license, i have it, why not you', It might actually increase the GRMS licenses issued if people would stop being so uptight.

 

[DaveNF2G]

On that note: from my understanding on those frequencies, the FCC will usually give a cease and desist order first to the Bonehead using a store and repeat device on a shared FRS/GRMS frequency. The same way they usually did on CB frequencies with people running linear amps. (Yes, I understand the key word is usually, let's not get hung up on that, please)

Actually, the FCC opens with a Notice of Apparent Liability (NAL), which orders the operator to pay a fine (usually around $10,000 for each day of illegal operation), or to show cause for a reduction of the fine, and to cease operation immediately or face an escalating fine.

 

[DaveNF2G]

So, lol (it is so hard to get an answer when everyone is set on Licenses and by the book definitions, lol) As well as pushing the 'get your Ham license' agenda.=.

I don't see any ham license agenda here. People are pushing 'get your GMRS license' which is the appropriate action to take in preparation for using GMRS frequencies.

It also seemed to escape your attention that a 'shared' frequency is governed by the rules of both services. FRS is 'licensed by rule' which means that FRS users must comply with the FRS regulations (frequency selection, power limitations and antenna configuration, etc.) in order to be deemed to be 'licensed' to use the frequencies. GMRS users on the shared channels must possess a GMRS license and abide by the power restrictions that have been set for the shared channels (which is not full legal GMRS power).

On the FRS exclusive channels, all users must comply with FRS technical specifications.

 

[cmdrwill]

snip.

It also seemed to escape your attention that a 'shared' frequency is governed by the rules of both services. FRS is 'licensed by rule' which means that FRS users must comply with the FRS regulations (frequency selection, power limitations and antenna configuration, etc.) in order to be deemed to be 'licensed' to use the frequencies. GMRS users on the shared channels must possess a GMRS license and abide by the power restrictions that have been set for the shared channels (which is not full legal GMRS power).

On the FRS exclusive channels, all users must comply with FRS technical specifications.

EXACTLY..
Right on Dave.

But, there are those who can not even follow simple rules...........

 

[swen_out_west]

While I'm at it and back on my soapbox, the same goes for the licensed Hams on my other forums. Instead of some HAMS berating and belittling those who don't have a license yet and are looking to enter the world of comms through the 'License by rule' frequencies like CB, MURS and FRS. Wouldn't it be better if you welcomed them into the world of radio with open arms. Educate and steer in the right direction. Not 'SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT.....'

With 20 years of Electronic Experience as A Navy Electronic Technician in both Radar and Comm equipment, it would be very easy for me to get my license after I learn Operator specific areas (ie: Q codes and FCC regulations) but I get turned off by the 'better than thou art' attitude by some.

It's seems like whenever I go looking for information to get my license I always have that one arrogant HAM who has to flaunt his basic electronic theory knowledge trying to test me. (Yes, maybe it's my own personal defense of justifying my in depth Electronic knowledge, but I have heard this same feeling of belittlement by novices looking in to the HAM world.) I feel like I am back on the ship in the radio shack and the chests are being puffed out between the RM's (RadioMen) and the ET's (Electronic Technicians) on who knows more.

Apparently, this forum is .just like the others. Sorry to bother you guys, but you just don't get it either, Honey attracts a lot more flies.

 

[KD8DVR]

I was clear about this from the get. The frequency in question is FRS 3/GRMS 11 (462.6125 MHz). So the yahoo claiming I need a GRMS license is actually the one breaking the law.

You were legal as long as you transmitted no more than 500 mW power at 2.5 kHz deviation. Anything over that puts your operation under GMRS rules, which require a license. A lot of the bubble pack radios ONLY operate under FRS specifications on the FRS Only channels and operate under GMRS specs on the shared and GMRS only channels.

AntiSquid Disclaimer: All comments are personal opinion only and may not imply actual fact.

 

[mmckenna]

While I'm at it and back on my soapbox,

I get where you are coming from. I've been an amateur radio operator since the late 80's or early 90's, and the amateur radio attitude you speak of gets annoying really quickly. I work in the communications industry, and have for 25 years, and sometimes it gets pretty funny when the amateurs start up their antics.

Enough on that, but I hear what you are saying. Amateur radio is not what you are looking for.

But, lets look at FRS too. Those $10 FRS/GMRS radios you speak of are very poor performers. The actual output on these radios is often far below the claimed wattage. It's not uncommon to see FRS channels running around 300mw, or 60% of what is actually permitted. Add in the inefficient antennas and the range can be pretty dismal.

A store and forward repeater like you are talking about will be a major headache. Trust me. If you are expecting a bunch of people that just spent $10 on their Wal*Mart radio to figure out how to communicate through one, you are going to be disappointed.
First off, someone is going to start talking. Someone nearby is going to answer while the store and forward repeater is trying to do it's thing. Some guy a mile away is going to hear a bunch of garbage. Someone is going to complain because they have to hear everything twice. Batteries are going to run down quickly because it's going to be running at a pretty high duty cycle. It's going to be a mess.

Also, expecting much range out of a store and forward repeater using 500mw, or even 5 watts isn't going to go well. 5 watts might get you what you need, but what you really need is altitude. Getting the whole thing up high on a hill, pole, whatever, is going to do more for your coverage than anything else.


What I think you are looking at here is a cheap radio and wanting it to perform like something much more than what it is. Sure, there are ways to do it, but you'll run up against user issues, cheap equipment, etc. Legality issues will be there, too.

So, the legality issues don't bother you? That's OK, that's your decision. But, if you are going to ignore the rules, then why limit yourself to a $10 FRS/GMRS radio? You could certainly do better with a higher end radio/antenna system as your store and forward system.

However, remember, you are going to have a bunch of random people with a $10 radio they just picked up at the store. Expecting them to actually read the directions, get it on the right channel (FRS/GMRS channels are not always number the same between brands), as well as figuring out the PL/DPL tones "interference eliminator codes", call tones, etc. it's going to turn into a mess really quickly. Add in the confusing nature of a store and forward repeater, and hilarity will ensue. I actually really enjoy hearing a recording of how this worked out. I bet it would be a real hoot!

Call tones through a store and forward repeater are going to cause you to pull all your hair out.


I personally think you are making this way to complicated. CB radios will do what you want. While they are not $10, you can get a decent one for $50 and a mag mount antenna for a bit more. You can get them at Wal*Mart, too. It'll have the range you are likely looking for, and they are a lot easier for unexperienced users to operate. No PL/DPL, just set the channel and talk.

Trying to make a $10 toy do what you want is going to be an exercise in frustration. You are certainly welcome to try it, but I think you can do better.

 

[swen_out_west]

I get where you are coming from. I've been an amateur radio operator since the late 80's or early 90's, and the amateur radio attitude you speak of gets annoying really quickly. I work in the communications industry, and have for 25 years, and sometimes it gets pretty funny when the amateurs start up their antics.

Enough on that, but I hear what you are saying. Amateur radio is not what you are looking for.

But, lets look at FRS too. Those $10 FRS/GMRS radios you speak of are very poor performers. The actual output on these radios is often far below the claimed wattage. It's not uncommon to see FRS channels running around 300mw, or 60% of what is actually permitted. Add in the inefficient antennas and the range can be pretty dismal.

A store and forward repeater like you are talking about will be a major headache. Trust me. If you are expecting a bunch of people that just spent $10 on their Wal*Mart radio to figure out how to communicate through one, you are going to be disappointed.
First off, someone is going to start talking. Someone nearby is going to answer while the store and forward repeater is trying to do it's thing. Some guy a mile away is going to hear a bunch of garbage. Someone is going to complain because they have to hear everything twice. Batteries are going to run down quickly because it's going to be running at a pretty high duty cycle. It's going to be a mess.

Also, expecting much range out of a store and forward repeater using 500mw, or even 5 watts isn't going to go well. 5 watts might get you what you need, but what you really need is altitude. Getting the whole thing up high on a hill, pole, whatever, is going to do more for your coverage than anything else.


What I think you are looking at here is a cheap radio and wanting it to perform like something much more than what it is. Sure, there are ways to do it, but you'll run up against user issues, cheap equipment, etc. Legality issues will be there, too.

So, the legality issues don't bother you? That's OK, that's your decision. But, if you are going to ignore the rules, then why limit yourself to a $10 FRS/GMRS radio? You could certainly do better with a higher end radio/antenna system as your store and forward system.

However, remember, you are going to have a bunch of random people with a $10 radio they just picked up at the store. Expecting them to actually read the directions, get it on the right channel (FRS/GMRS channels are not always number the same between brands), as well as figuring out the PL/DPL tones "interference eliminator codes", call tones, etc. it's going to turn into a mess really quickly. Add in the confusing nature of a store and forward repeater, and hilarity will ensue. I actually really enjoy hearing a recording of how this worked out. I bet it would be a real hoot!

Call tones through a store and forward repeater are going to cause you to pull all your hair out.


I personally think you are making this way to complicated. CB radios will do what you want. While they are not $10, you can get a decent one for $50 and a mag mount antenna for a bit more. You can get them at Wal*Mart, too. It'll have the range you are likely looking for, and they are a lot easier for unexperienced users to operate. No PL/DPL, just set the channel and talk.

Trying to make a $10 toy do what you want is going to be an exercise in frustration. You are certainly welcome to try it, but I think you can do better.

Too bad you guys don't have a thank you, button. Except for my concern for the legality issues. I started this thread because I am concerned. Why else would i keep coming back? . The comment of 'So legal doesn't bother you' is actually a misnomer and totally out of line, IMO. I was trying to find out from you guys if it was possible. Not to be accused of being a pirate and laughed at.

Poor equipment or not it's easier to get a guy to spend $10 to get a taste of the possibilities than to spend $100 and find out he only used it one time. As for power requirements, as a licensed charter captain I troll with at least one engine running all the time with a 36' Cris-Craft and a great electrical system so power is not a issue and my idea regarding the time in the desert it would be off generator. Most of these questions were more thinking of possibilities than actually doing it.

On that another note: the town nearby, has a store and repeat on a shared FRS/GRMS with no PL run by a HAM and GRMS licensed person affiliated with the local club I found out.

When I was in town this evening I asked them if it was okay for an FRS only radio to chat with them. Their response was 'If you can learn how to wait until the second transmission and you are close enough to Carl's Jr. The more the merrier,..' So yes, it's just a select few that get uptight.

As per their understanding from the local FCC office, as long as they don't Xmit over 5 W and I don't transmit over 500 mW all is cool. They are the ones xmiting my signal for use with other GRMS licensed users, not me. Repeaters. (or Record and Repeat, whatever you want to call them) are not allowed on the FRS only freqs. But as I've mentioned from the OP, all this questioning was based on the shared freqs.

As for mine setting up something like this on my boat. Forget it. If my frustration was like this trying to find out the answer, I would hate to see what it is if I actually set something up. Positive, some GRMS licensed person would call the FCC and then they have come out and talk to me just to say that he is the one being the bonehead.

Funny how some GRMS licensed people get bent out of shape on the shared frequencies and then complain there's nobody to talk to.

 

[swen_out_west]

The guys also passed my honey vs. vinegar test. I think if I do decide to continue on to get HAM license, it will definitely be through one of those two.

Soon as I get the CB handle for someone I am out of here,,,,

 

[bill4long]

Actually, the FCC opens with a Notice of Apparent Liability (NAL), which orders the operator to pay a fine (usually around $10,000 for each day of illegal operation), or to show cause for a reduction of the fine, and to cease operation immediately or face an escalating fine.

Depends on the violation, but it's rare that NALs are issued for infractions. For infractions the FCC usually opens with a warning letter. Then if violations are chronic it could be followed by a NAL, and the fines range from $1000 to $25000. All violations are not equal.

Now, the FCC is a complaint driven agency with very little resources. They can hardly deal with the nonsense on ham radio, let alone FRS. The fact is, they aren't going to do a darn thing about FRS or GMRS violations unless there is sustained interference to a public service agency, commercial broadcasting, some public safety service or a huge outcry of complaints. They have neither the time nor money to care about FRS and GMRS. Believe me.

 

[bill4long]

The guys also passed my honey vs. vinegar test. I think if I do decide to continue on to get HAM license, it will definitely be through one of those two. Soon as I get the CB handle for someone I am out of here,,,,

I have to ask: why is it so hard for people to decide to get ham license? The Tech license is easy and the radios are cheap. There are eight year old kids with tech licenses on some of the repeaters around here. ANY CHIMPANZEE can get a Tech license these days. I'm pretty sure my dog could pass the test. /sarc

What are you waiting for?

 

[mmckenna]

I have to ask: why is it so hard for people to decide to get ham license? The Tech license is easy and the radios are cheap. There are eight year old kids with tech licenses on some of the repeaters around here. ANY CHIMPANZEE can get a Tech license these days. I'm pretty sure my dog could pass the test. /sarc

What are you waiting for?

Maybe because he doesn't want to. Maybe it won't fit his needs for what he wants to do. Amateur radio is just one radio service. There are others that will do what he may want.

 

[mmckenna]

Too bad you guys don't have a thank you, button. Except for my concern for the legality issues. I started this thread because I am concerned. Why else would i keep coming back? . The comment of 'So legal doesn't bother you' is actually a misnomer and totally out of line, IMO. I was trying to find out from you guys if it was possible. Not to be accused of being a pirate and laughed at.

Well, I hope you didn't think I was accusing you of anything, because I wasn't. Only pointing out the reality of GMRS. What you chose to do or not do, is your business, not mine. If you chose to do everything 100% legal, then good on you and thank you for doing the right thing.

Enforcement is rare. I follow a lot of FCC stuff for work, and I honestly can't remember the last time the FCC did any enforcement on GMRS.
With the flood of FRS/GMRS radios on the market, sold at lots of stores, etc. there are millions of them out there, and I'm willing to bet the vast majority of the users are not licensed. The world hasn't ended. No one has been hauled off to jail.

And, other than a few notable exceptions, I don't think anyone is laughing at you. You've asked some good, intelligent questions. Your thought path is right.

I guess I'm a bit confused about exactly what you are trying to do. I get the $10 radio + a store and forward repeater system. That all makes sense. Where I think I got lost was the talk about marine use, then talking about inland use.


But, hey, if FRS and/or GMRS will do what you need, then it sounds like you've got a good plan. Making it affordable sounds like it's the most important part. Probably no other way to do that than FRS. Hard to beat the disposable radios.

Don't get let amateur radio operators force/coerce you into anything. Amateur radio is fine, but it's not the only solution.

 

[swen_out_west]

Thanks, I'm good now.

It's more just a thought and maybe showing novices the wide, wide world of radio at basically no cost to them

But then after talking on one this evening I thought about what you said about a cluster----. If i walked on the repeat a couple of times and I'm actually radio savy, it would be a nightmare with novices.

Then I thought how I made an InMarSat call to my mother once and how the 3 second delay drove her nuts and she constantly walked on me. I had to keep reminding her to say over at the end of each sentence, lol. Later that week she emailed me requesting that I don't call her from sea ever again, lol.

So yes, If let's say it was a weekend and only 5 people chimed in I would have a nightmare policing the freq and training when in reality I should be catching fish for my customers, lol.

The reference is both land and water. Not only for my fishing area on the Great Lakes to alleviate traffic on VHF Marine.

It would also have been cool if the SoCal members of my other forum of like minded individuals ( where 100 to 500 could theoretically show up with the right seminars and demonstrations on survival and preparedness) would do a weekend up in the Mojave Desert or somewhere. With the repeater it would not require us to be right on top of each other. These are kind of independent people, it might actually work since most of that type of people show interest in radio communication and would actually sit in on a free 30 to 50 minute brief on operation and the capabilities/ limitations/regulations of FRS/GRMS, as well as giving them forms for getting a GRMS license. The $10 throw away radio would be basically lab equipment, besides I think a lot of them already have unlicensed GRMS radios (although in that case they would have to be licensed first, unless it is switchable on the shared freqs), This would be a great way to get them licensed and educated, not lambasting them. I don't know what I expected on this site, we have a handful on that site too that berate and belittle rather than trying to properly coax them to get licensed.

But, in the last case scenario I really am not going to fork out that kind of money for a weekend a year to teach people about GRMS/FRS and sign them up for licenses just to get lambasted the way I do by some current GRMS license holders. I really thought I would get a 'that's a great idea' and license holders and HAM's would be all for it as a sales pitch and to educate the 'crazy' people and pirates, but I just don't don't get a warm and fuzzy from the results of this thread. Instead of support, now I fear someone would call the FCC on me even if I did finally learn (on my own) that it is actually legal on the shared freqs as long as non licensed people xmit at 500mW only. But as a lot of the posts on this thread indicate, current license holders are also barroom lawyers and even if I explain the legalities of it they still wouldn't believe me.

 

[bill4long]

Maybe because he doesn't want to. Maybe it won't fit his needs for what he wants to do. Amateur radio is just one radio service. There are others that will do what he may want.

I was asking him.