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GTR8000 Pre-selector question.

emtunderwood

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Hello, our fire department is deploying a GTR8000 repeater with amplifier at 185w into TPRD-1546C. However, the GTR does not have a pre-selector. Our old MTR2000 had one and the Quantar had one built in. Does the GTR need one? If so what is a good recommendation for a pre-selector?
 

dickie757

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How congested is the band that it is using? Are there big boi transmitters nearby that might swamp it? Is it co-located with a bunch of transmitters? How high up is the receive antenna, if they are separate? The higher up, the more likely one is needed.

Just 'cause the others had one doesnt mean they needed it, or, they did need it.
 

ElroyJetson

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A preselector definitely will improve repeater performance in an RF congested area, IF it's tuned correctly. And it's got to be tuned correctly. Just because someone knows how to tune a compact/mobile duplexer doesn't mean he knows the proper procedure for a GTR preselector, or a Quantar preselector, for that matter. Be sure that if you get one for the GTR, it's tuned by someone who knows the full procedure and has the right equipment to do it. Tuning of the preselector is so critical that if done incorrectly it can affect the audio qualities of the signal.
 

emtunderwood

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We are receive 159.525 and tx 156.105. As in congestion... All the other sites are VHF as well in the county and surrounding counties. But the 159 on rx is pretty clean as in we had a study done several years ago at the site and came back clean. There was traffic heard in the high 158 but if I remember correctly was 158.800mhz was the closest and next closest was 158.600mhz. We are co-located at a cellular site. We are the only radio there besides ATT, T-Mobile and a Wireless Broadband provider. The antenna is mounted at 325ft and is a SD2352-HF2PASNM.
 

N4DES

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We are receive 159.525 and tx 156.105. As in congestion... All the other sites are VHF as well in the county and surrounding counties. But the 159 on rx is pretty clean as in we had a study done several years ago at the site and came back clean. There was traffic heard in the high 158 but if I remember correctly was 158.800mhz was the closest and next closest was 158.600mhz. We are co-located at a cellular site. We are the only radio there besides ATT, T-Mobile and a Wireless Broadband provider. The antenna is mounted at 325ft and is a SD2352-HF2PASNM.

I wouldn't waste any time, effort, or money deploying an additional pre-selector based on this description. You would be adding in additional insertion loss into the receiver line where there is no reason to.
 

prcguy

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The TPRD-1546C is not the greatest for band pass and its a bit lossy, but have you connected it to the repeater on a bench and tested for desense? There should be plenty of duplexer isolation for the repeater to work fine with no desense from its own transmitter but the test will be when its all installed at the site and if other transmitters will cause a problem. A single 10" 1/4 wave preselector cavity might be better than the stock preselector which is about 4MHz wide vs a large 1/4 wave can set for maybe 1dB loss and will be more than 20dB down at just +/- 1MHz.
 

Tech21

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Hello, our fire department is deploying a GTR8000 repeater with amplifier at 185w into TPRD-1546C. However, the GTR does not have a pre-selector. Our old MTR2000 had one and the Quantar had one built in. Does the GTR need one? If so what is a good recommendation for a pre-selector?
Just take the one off the MTR, it will work without issue. Have it checked on a service monitor.
 

emtunderwood

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Just take the one off the MTR, it will work without issue. Have it checked on a service monitor.
I did and had it checked something seems weird though. 2 service monitors showed the same thing. 3-5db attenuation on the receive and 47-51 on the transmit freq. However, if you tap the preselector or it sitting there with the TG on it'll occasionally do some funky stuff where the receive attenuation will randomly jump to -15 to -17 and tx to -20 to -27. I should have mentioned this in the original post. But that's why i'm uncertain if it's really needed since we are using Q2330E duplexer with -90 to -100 on both tx and receive isolation and less than 1 db on the receive pass. And if so just buy one from fleabay and have it tuned from a MTR?
 

kayn1n32008

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I did and had it checked something seems weird though. 2 service monitors showed the same thing. 3-5db attenuation on the receive and 47-51 on the transmit freq. However, if you tap the preselector or it sitting there with the TG on it'll occasionally do some funky stuff where the receive attenuation will randomly jump to -15 to -17 and tx to -20 to -27. I should have mentioned this in the original post. But that's why i'm uncertain if it's really needed since we are using Q2330E duplexer with -90 to -100 on both tx and receive isolation and less than 1 db on the receive pass. And if so just buy one from fleabay and have it tuned from a MTR?
Okay, I'm confused, are you using a TPRD-1546C or a Q2330E? Your OP you say your using a TPRD-1546C, yet in this post you say your using a Q2330E
 

kayn1n32008

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If your using a TPRD-1546C, I'd add a single 10" band pass cavity centered on your repeater input.

Keep in mind you are adding more insertion loss if you add anything to your receive chain.

If you are using a Q2330E, and you are getting -90 to -100dB of rejection with -1dB of loss, I'd do a desense test once it's all installed and see what it shows.

185w seems really excessive for transmit power especially if you are using a SD2352-HF2PASNM, even at 300+ feet AGL. Is it fed with 7/8 or 1-5/8" hardline? If it is, you have quite the alligator of a repeater. Portables at 5 or 6w and mobiles at 50w.

Your repeater is going to have an ERP over 500w, fed with 7/8" hardline. If its 1/2", it's almost 400w.

Honestly, it's nice to see someone is using quality components, but man, power out, isn't everything.
 

kayn1n32008

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I did and had it checked something seems weird though. 2 service monitors showed the same thing. 3-5db attenuation on the receive and 47-51 on the transmit freq. However, if you tap the preselector or it sitting there with the TG on it'll occasionally do some funky stuff where the receive attenuation will randomly jump to -15 to -17 and tx to -20 to -27. I should have mentioned this in the original post. But that's why i'm uncertain if it's really needed since we are using Q2330E duplexer with -90 to -100 on both tx and receive isolation and less than 1 db on the receive pass. And if so just buy one from fleabay and have it tuned from a MTR?
What do you mean on transmit? The preselector should be between the duplexer receive port and the receive input of the repeater. And your -15 to -17 what? Need units and need to know what and where you are making these measurements.

-3 to -5dB of loss seems excessive for the preselector. Added to -1dB of loss of the Q2330E becomes -4 to -6dB loss to your receiver, that zeros out the gain of your antenna(~6dB depending on omni or offset pattern), and now add your feedline loss on top. If it's 1/2", your looking at another ~3dB, or more depending on how far from the bottom of the tower to where your station and duplexer is. Now you are into net loss on receive(at least -3dB or half your receive signal strength.) This isn't factoring in connectors, polyphaser(you do have some sort of lightning protection between your antenna and your equipment right?) and jumpers between the feedline and your station equipment.
 

emtunderwood

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Okay, I'm confused, are you using a TPRD-1546C or a Q2330E? Your OP you say your using a TPRD-1546C, yet in this post you say your using a Q2330E
The MTR had the TPRD-1546C connected into the Q2330E. The GTR did not come with a pre-selector. Hence the question do I need the pre-selector or can I run the Q2330E alone and if not then what is the recommendation?
 

emtunderwood

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If your using a TPRD-1546C, I'd add a single 10" band pass cavity centered on your repeater input.

Keep in mind you are adding more insertion loss if you add anything to your receive chain.

If you are using a Q2330E, and you are getting -90 to -100dB of rejection with -1dB of loss, I'd do a desense test once it's all installed and see what it shows.

185w seems really excessive for transmit power especially if you are using a SD2352-HF2PASNM, even at 300+ feet AGL. Is it fed with 7/8 or 1-5/8" hardline? If it is, you have quite the alligator of a repeater. Portables at 5 or 6w and mobiles at 50w.

Your repeater is going to have an ERP over 500w, fed with 7/8" hardline. If its 1/2", it's almost 400w.

Honestly, it's nice to see someone is using quality components, but man, power out, isn't everything.
185W is that the system was setup with years ago by a radio shop which is no more. Switching to a P25 repeater now with everyone else in our area. Running 7/8 AVA5-50 the feed line to the tower to cabinet is around 360ft into a polyphaser at the cabinet and at the antenna its 8ft off the tower with jumper. the feedline doesn't do and bend till the icebridge on the ground and sweeps clean from polyphaser to antenna. 5w portables and mobiles at 50w you are correct. The biggest problem we are trying to overcome is the 99sq mi area in wv mountains with only one site and the tower is 15mi away from our busiest area. The tower can receive 14 to 15mi away on portable. But cannot tx that far to a portable, but mobiles hear it fine and about 20mi away it starts to degrade completely. A few years back we had some interference and a friend of mine which is now a retired Motorola ST came out and was able to determine there was a problem with the new LED tower lighting that was installed causing interference. But that since has been resolved. We were using the MTR then and put in a used Quantar for P25 testing and decided to switch with everyone else and purchased the GTR. But we have always had the problem of the tower hearing farther than it can transmit.
 

emtunderwood

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What do you mean on transmit? The preselector should be between the duplexer receive port and the receive input of the repeater. And your -15 to -17 what? Need units and need to know what and where you are making these measurements.

-3 to -5dB of loss seems excessive for the preselector. Added to -1dB of loss of the Q2330E becomes -4 to -6dB loss to your receiver, that zeros out the gain of your antenna(~6dB depending on omni or offset pattern), and now add your feedline loss on top. If it's 1/2", your looking at another ~3dB, or more depending on how far from the bottom of the tower to where your station and duplexer is. Now you are into net loss on receive(at least -3dB or half your receive signal strength.) This isn't factoring in connectors, polyphaser(you do have some sort of lightning protection between your antenna and your equipment right?) and jumpers between the feedline and your station equipment.
-15 to -17db to the receive frequency and the transmitter which is blocking would jump from -47-51db clear up to -27db just sitting there. But that came from 2 service monitors different manufacturers all calibrated and normalized.. I'm thinking there is something up with the pre-selector. But the best that could be achieved was -3 to -5db on the pass and around -47 to -51 on the tx freq the reject. and yes the antenna is in a omni pattern. There is lightning protection and the polyphaser and I believe ground straps at every 50 or 75ft, I'd have to go count them, I know there are plenty there. That tower is prone to strikes.
 

dickie757

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Did the duplexer stay the same from radio to radio to radio? Might be time for another look at its tuning or jumpers/hardware.

And when you say the antenna is eight feet off of the tower, you mean on a standoff, or up at the top? There might be some wierd coupling with the tower at that distance and txfreq, degrading tx performance if it's on a standoff
 

emtunderwood

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On the MTR it was a 4 cavity Q2220E that had been there is 2003 and survived 2 strikes and was rebuilt. But when the Quantar was put in-service in 2019 to start testing mixed-mode and P25 the 6 cavity was purchased from Tessco tuned there and taken to a local shop for verification. And in November a local radio shop came out and verified tuning and everything was spot on. And nothing has been changed until now we are going strictly P25 with the GTR and adding a battery backup system. I have included antenna pics.IMG_0415.jpgIMG_0423.JPGIMG_0425.JPGIMG_0437.JPG
 

emtunderwood

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I'm not familiar with that antenna. Does it require those braces?
Oh yeah.. That's an entire sinclair kit. When we moved there we had sinclair do some engineering and prop studies and the antenna is made to cover the maximum amount of area with consideration to terrain. I know what model it is as mentioned above. But I know some RF things have been changed. I cannot remember what, but I remember talking to the engineer and this was his recommendation for our site and area. I know there has been some changes from stock or what is seen on their page. And our board bought 2, 1 as a spare just in case.
 
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