Ham Radio & Contacting Emergency Services

[jonwienke]

And DMR APRS would be a convenient way for tbe caller to share their location.

 

[mmckenna]

And DMR APRS would be a convenient way for tbe caller to share their location.

And that makes even more sense.

But I can see some brining up a "liability issue", realistic or not. If done correctly and making sure end users understood their was zero guarantee of anyone answering or being useful, then maybe that would fly.

On the other hand, I've attempted to rely on amateur radio operators to answer emergency calls before, and was seriously disappointed. I'd still not rely on it as my only means of getting help in an emergency.

 

[tweiss3]

And that makes even more sense.

But I can see some brining up a "liability issue", realistic or not. If done correctly and making sure end users understood their was zero guarantee of anyone answering or being useful, then maybe that would fly.

On the other hand, I've attempted to rely on amateur radio operators to answer emergency calls before, and was seriously disappointed. I'd still not rely on it as my only means of getting help in an emergency.

Between that, and the backbone required to route it to the appropriate agency, plus have a a way to get back out to the initial caller, it doesn't seem feasible. With the millions of dollars already spent on GPS 911 routing that isn't close to always correct, I don't see it happening.

 

[mmckenna]

Between that, and the backbone required to route it to the appropriate agency, plus have a a way to get back out to the initial caller, it doesn't seem feasible. With the millions of dollars already spent on GPS 911 routing that isn't close to always correct, I don't see it happening.

I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing...

I believe the idea proposed was to set up a Talkgroup #911 that would be monitored by hams only. No intent or plan to route radio calls to an actual PSAP. I agree, doing that would be a horrible idea.

But having a 99.9% chance of reaching a live/intelligent ham operator that would at least place a phone call for you would be useful if you were outside cell phone range.

I won't be getting rid of my Garmin InReach anytime soon, though.

 

[jonwienke]

It's obviously not a replacement for an EPIRB or whatever. But in the absence of any other options, a radio periodically and automatically broadcasting location pings on a known frequency would make locating someone a lot easier.

 

[tweiss3]

I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing...

I believe the idea proposed was to set up a Talkgroup #911 that would be monitored by hams only. No intent or plan to route radio calls to an actual PSAP. I agree, doing that would be a horrible idea.

But having a 99.9% chance of reaching a live/intelligent ham operator that would at least place a phone call for you would be useful if you were outside cell phone range.

I won't be getting rid of my Garmin InReach anytime soon, though.

I thought you were going another direction, but I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, I've found some have a hard enough time looking up a call sign with QRZ or the FCC database, asking one of them to look up the local PD phone number to relay information to is significantly improbable.

 

[jonwienke]

I believe the idea proposed was to set up a Talkgroup #911 that would be monitored by hams only. No intent or plan to route radio calls to an actual PSAP. I agree, doing that would be a horrible idea.

But having a 99.9% chance of reaching a live/intelligent ham operator that would at least place a phone call for you would be useful if you were outside cell phone range.

It might not hurt to have someone at an actual 911 center monitor that talkgroup to cut out the middleman. Sort of like how some agencies used to monitor CB channel 9...

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

But having a 99.9% chance of reaching a live/intelligent ham operator that would at least place a phone call for you would be useful if you were outside cell phone range.

To make it really work, it would take some basic training and a map that shows direct dial PSAP numbers for agencies. The person doing the relay could punch in the gps coordinates, get the number and call it in, using a basic script of “I’m calling on behalf of a ham radio operator requesting emergency services. Their location is (blank). They said (nature of emergency). No more information is available.”. The ham radio operator would then just call back over the TG that they called relayed and will be monitoring.

 

[mmckenna]

I thought you were going another direction, but I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, I've found some have a hard enough time looking up a call sign with QRZ or the FCC database, asking one of them to look up the local PD phone number to relay information to is significantly improbable.

Yep.
I tried calling for help once on an active repeater with a couple of guys talking on it. My truck had slid off the road in the mountains and needed a tow truck.

Went though the entire process of providing location, etc. At the end of it all, the ham said "I don't want to get involved" and dropped off the repeater. No one else offered to help.

 

[mmckenna]

It might not hurt to have someone at an actual 911 center monitor that talkgroup to cut out the middleman. Sort of like how some agencies used to monitor CB channel 9...

I support a PSAP, and I can come up with a lot of reasons why that would never fly, and very few reasons why it would.

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

I thought you were going another direction, but I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, I've found some have a hard enough time looking up a call sign with QRZ or the FCC database, asking one of them to look up the local PD phone number to relay information to is significantly improbable.

Could always punch it into google maps and just call the closest state PSAP. In California that’s CHP. They answer all cell phone 911 calls then route based on location if necessary.

 

[mmckenna]

They answer all cell phone 911 calls then route based on location if necessary.

Not always. Most cell phone calls route to the correct PSAP for the location.

however, NG-911 will fix a lot of the issues with the current E-911 system, and make it much easier to route calls to the correct PSAP.

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

Not always. Most cell phone calls route to the correct PSAP for the location.

however, NG-911 will fix a lot of the issues with the current E-911 system, and make it much easier to route calls to the correct PSAP.

I think it’s a “YMMV” situation. Every time I’ve called 911 from my iPhone, it’s gone to CHP. They took my call then transferred me to the appropriate agency.

 

[mmckenna]

I think it’s a “YMMV” situation. Every time I’ve called 911 from my iPhone, it’s gone to CHP. They took my call then transferred me to the appropriate agency.

It's not something that is left up to chance.
The latest statistics show that somewhere above 80% of 911 calls are from cell phones. If 80% of the 911 calls had to go through CHP, there'd be a big mess and a lot of delays.

Cell carriers have become pretty good at determining cell phone locations. PSAP's can provide an area of responsibility, and calls will get routed correctly. When locations cannot be accurately determined, or it's outside of a specific area that belongs to a certain PSAP, they will route to CHP.

Ham radio will not have access to those systems, and no PSAP is going to install ham radio gear in a center and assign staff the responsibility of monitoring. Most PSAP's are understaffed as it is. Ham radio operators will have to do this one on their own if they want it to work.
It would be a great way to actually prove they can do "EMCOMM".

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

It's not something that is left up to chance.
The latest statistics show that somewhere above 80% of 911 calls are from cell phones. If 80% of the 911 calls had to go through CHP, there'd be a big mess and a lot of delays.

Cell carriers have become pretty good at determining cell phone locations. PSAP's can provide an area of responsibility, and calls will get routed correctly. When locations cannot be accurately determined, or it's outside of a specific area that belongs to a certain PSAP, they will route to CHP.

Ham radio will not have access to those systems, and no PSAP is going to install ham radio gear in a center and assign staff the responsibility of monitoring. Most PSAP's are understaffed as it is. Ham radio operators will have to do this one on their own if they want it to work.
It would be a great way to actually prove they can do "EMCOMM".

That’s why I was saying route TG 911 relay callers to CHP first since that’s probably the easiest group of numbers to compile for a map that someone from out of the area can understand. I know my area pretty well and I have the direct dial numbers for the PSAPs and will call the appropriate agency when needed, but if I was monitoring TG 911 and was doing a relay for someone who’s somewhere else, I could get lost trying to find their jurisdiction, then the public number and then getting through a phone tree some of them have, but I know CHP has a public number that covers a large geographic area and that’s easy to find.

Now I imagine the same could be said for any spot in the US as well. It could be better if some group actually took the time and got cooperation with public safety agencies to use GIS data to provide a easy to lookup system for PSAP numbers for each and every spot in the US but I doubt that will happen. I talk to dispatchers all the time who can’t get that info and they have access to way more resources than any of us.

 

[mmckenna]

Now I imagine the same could be said for any spot in the US as well. It could be better if some group actually took the time and got cooperation with public safety agencies to use GIS data to provide a easy to lookup system for PSAP numbers for each and every spot in the US but I doubt that will happen. I talk to dispatchers all the time who can’t get that info and they have access to way more resources than any of us.

That exists, but many dispatchers are not aware or have easy access to it. Most don't need it.

 

[ladn]

About 30+ years ago, Los Angeles County Disaster Communications (RACES) had their sole paid employee on duty during the morning and early afternoon commute times. This was before cell phones were widely available/affordable. He was located in the Sheriff's communications center and could relay assistance calls to an LASD dispatcher, Auto Club, Fire, or Highway Patrol. Jerry exemplified professionalism and competence, even though he was totally blind. The K6CPT repeater was, during that time period, a good resource.

I can't speak for other areas, but for us in Los Angeles County, K6CPT was a lead by example group.

 

[jeepsandradios]

So I'm all for trying something new. Heck I remember the react days of sitting at home in a snow storm listening to CH9 for someone who needs help. Those days are long gone. I work a full time job, volunteer with the FD and a 30 year member of SAR. I realize many folks sit and home and talk on the radio all night but guess when I see radio all day I'm not so sure I want another one to listen for help. Back to DMR.

DMR is going to require infrastructure to be effective. I was in the mountains this week for work. No cell, no customer radio and no ham repeaters I could reach. I had my Garmin with me. Who is going to setup and maintain repeaters all over the US and link DMR APRS (which many wont even support APRS on DMR). I run analog APRS 144.390 a lot when I'm in the back woods. I lost a reliable digi when I got off the interstate. I run 2 digis back home in NY and I can say there are miles in between that you will have no coverage. While its a good thought, I dont see the logistics of having available repeaters all over just for this. We can't even get DMR repeater users to all use a standard on anything.

Then on top of all of this what about unlicensed users ? It happens all the time. Even easier now that the CCR market has DMR stuff.

As others said Amatuer radio is hit or miss in getting help as it is. Unless someone like the ARRL was going to pay a crew to sit an monitor 24/7 I dont see this idea ever becoming possible.

 

[bill4long]

If you're out in the weeds, saying a prayer and sacrificing a chicken will probably yield more positive results than ham radio.
At the end the day, the sat phone is the only realistic option if there is no cell coverage.

 

[mmckenna]

I dont see this idea ever becoming possible.

I agree. We were not suggesting 100% coverage. However, having a dedicated talk group on existing systems would be beneficial. It's just another option.

And with all the infighting that seems to come as part of ham radio, I'd see that this would never get off the ground in any reliable fashion. Someone would screw it up. Someone would abuse it. After all, we have a small percentage of the amateur radio community that assumes their license permits transmitting on public safety frequencies anyway. MARS/CAP mods, etc.

But it's a fun discussion.

At the end the day, the sat phone is the only realistic option if there is no cell coverage.

I agree. I've learned the hard way to never rely on amateur radio operators in an emergency.