Hamilton County - Simulcast or multisite?

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swatpup102

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Hamilton county lists as a multicast site, but it seems like all county/city traffic is running on both the Hamilton county and City of Cincinnati sites on different frequencies. Is Hamilton county really a simulcast site?

 

scannerboy02

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Yes, both the Hamilton County and Cincinnati sites are separate simulcast sites. Talk group traffic will broadcast on either site if a radio is affiliated. Being that the Hamilton County site overlaps a good portion of the Cincinnati site a good amount of the traffic can be heard on both sites at the same time.

Just a personal opinion but the overlap really is unnecessary. One 30 channel site would probably work well. The reasoning for two separate sites is likely more political than anything.
 

n8dhw

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Yes, both the Hamilton County and Cincinnati sites are separate simulcast sites. Talk group traffic will broadcast on either site if a radio is affiliated. Being that the Hamilton County site overlaps a good portion of the Cincinnati site a good amount of the traffic can be heard on both sites at the same time.

Just a personal opinion but the overlap really is unnecessary. One 30 channel site would probably work well. The reasoning for two separate sites is likely more political than anything.

This is why when Montgomery Co and the City of Dayton switched to MARCS it was decided that Dayton would give there frequencies over to Montgomery Co so there would be just one countywide simulcast site instead of Dayton maintaining there own separate site like they had when they were analog. Seems to be working fine for them but I'm sure with Hamilton County and Cincinnati it was more politics of each wanting to have there own systems rather than there being just one countywide site.
 

wa8pyr

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This is why when Montgomery Co and the City of Dayton switched to MARCS it was decided that Dayton would give there frequencies over to Montgomery Co so there would be just one countywide simulcast site instead of Dayton maintaining there own separate site like they had when they were analog. Seems to be working fine for them but I'm sure with Hamilton County and Cincinnati it was more politics of each wanting to have there own systems rather than there being just one countywide site.

While political nonsense is possible, it's very likely that they decided to go with separate sites so that they could finely tailor coverage for each entity, but still serve as backups for one another; that way if the Cincinnati site were to go down, the users would jump over to HamCo with some loss of coverage, and vice-versa.

I've personally never been a big fan of a major metropolitan area putting all their eggs in one basket; if the basket breaks, they're screwed.
 

scannerboy02

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it's very likely that they decided to go with separate sites so that they could finely tailor coverage for each entity, but still serve as backups for one another; that way if the Cincinnati site were to go down, the users would jump over to HamCo with some loss of coverage, and vice-versa.
The "issue" (not that it's necessarily an issue) with the two separate sites is that the same talk groups that are on the Cincinnati site are also on the Hamilton County site, and vice-versa, the majority of the time causing each talk group to use two frequencies, one on the county site and one on the city site. Being that the Hamilton County site also has several talk groups on it from outside agencies the site loading on the Hamilton County site can get rather severe at times. When they fire the all county broadcast they light up 4 of the 20 channels on each site, 8 in total, to broadcast the exact same radio traffic. If they had a single Hamilton County site (this site already has coverage of the entire county) with 30 channels (adding 10 channels from the city site) the need to use multiple channels to broadcast the exact same traffic would be reduced to 1 channel and they would have 10 more channels to help with the site loading.

I've personally never been a big fan of a major metropolitan area putting all their eggs in one basket; if the basket breaks, they're screwed.
I do tend to agree with you on this but isn't this why we have site trunking/fail soft/conventional back-ups?

While I don't know the exact site failure plans for the Hamilton County and Cincinnati sites I do wonder how having both sites carrying the same radio traffic would effect site failure. I do know the conventional back-ups use the same five frequencies (8 CALL/TAC's) for both the county and city.
 

wa8pyr

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The "issue" (not that it's necessarily an issue) with the two separate sites is that the same talk groups that are on the Cincinnati site are also on the Hamilton County site, and vice-versa, the majority of the time causing each talk group to use two frequencies, one on the county site and one on the city site. Being that the Hamilton County site also has several talk groups on it from outside agencies the site loading on the Hamilton County site can get rather severe at times. When they fire the all county broadcast they light up 4 of the 20 channels on each site, 8 in total, to broadcast the exact same radio traffic. If they had a single Hamilton County site (this site already has coverage of the entire county) with 30 channels (adding 10 channels from the city site) the need to use multiple channels to broadcast the exact same traffic would be reduced to 1 channel and they would have 10 more channels to help with the site loading.

I'm sure they're aware of all that, but have decided it's acceptable. The problem with jamming a large metro area onto a single site, no matter how many channels, is that if it crashes, there's no acceptable backup available.

I know that Columbus City and Columbus MARCS (previously Franklin County) back each other up to some extent by plan and design, and I wouldn't be surprised if Cuyahoga County and City of Cleveland do so as well.

And a 30-channel site wouldn't necessarily solve loading issues; the Columbus MARCS site is 30 channels but I've seen it get awfully close to max density on a number of occasions. If all of the City of Columbus site users were brought onto it as well, there would certainly be some occasional loading issues. Better to spread the load out.

I do tend to agree with you on this but isn't this why we have site trunking/fail soft/conventional back-ups?

While I don't know the exact site failure plans for the Hamilton County and Cincinnati sites I do wonder how having both sites carrying the same radio traffic would effect site failure. I do know the conventional back-ups use the same five frequencies (8 CALL/TAC's) for both the county and city.

Both site trunking and failsoft do you no good if the site itself crashes.

In the event of site trunking (or failsoft) the radios automatically search out a site which is still in wide-area trunking. In the case of Hamilton County, certain radios are probably set up to prefer their respective site, but if that site fails or goes into site trunking they'll automatically jump to the other site.

In failsoft, you lose most of the capacity you gain with trunking. Each talkgroup is assigned a specific frequency to operate on and it doesn't really work unless a radio is always operating on a specific site. Most radios aren't even set up for it.

With a networked system failsoft is relatively unlikely since you have multiple layers of control; if the master site fails the zone controllers take over, and if the zone controller goes away each site controller takes over. It's only when all that has failed that a site will go into failsoft.

Conventional backups are fine, if the county not only has them and has trained everyone to use them when necessary, but they're an absolute last-ditch thing; there's still the issue of very few channels being expected to handle all the traffic of a major metro area should it become necessary so having redundant sites is much more preferable, even though it might seem wasteful.
 
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scannerboy02

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If all of the City of Columbus site users were brought onto it as well, there would certainly be some occasional loading issues. Better to spread the load out.
I get what you're saying here but that's the issue with Hamilton County and Cincinnati, the load isn't spread out, the majority of the traffic is being broadcast on BOTH sites at the SAME time.

Having two sites in the event one were to fail is definitely a good thing but in a normal day to day operation having two sites covering basically the same geographic area and broadcasting the same radio traffic is strange.
 

wa8pyr

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I get what you're saying here but that's the issue with Hamilton County and Cincinnati, the load isn't spread out, the majority of the traffic is being broadcast on BOTH sites at the SAME time.

I really doubt that every talkgroup from both "systems" is going across both sites. In any case, it could be caused by radios from HamCo (set for priority on the HamCo site) listening to talkgroups from Cincinnati and vice versa; in either case, the system managers are certainly aware of the situation and have deemed it acceptable.

Another point to consider is that as MARCS rolls back the roaming limits for the majority of talkgroups on the system, the situation will improve.
 
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