HOA Antenna with a Twist

[WRXJ956]

47 C.F.R. 1.4000(a)(1)(iii) "Any restriction...that impairs the installation, maintenance, or use of...[a]n antenna that is used to receive television broadcast signals...is prohibited..."

It does not specify that a TV antenna be used to receive TV broadcast signals.

Based on this, I'm confident that, legally, an HOA cannot prohibit use of an amateur radio antenna IF that antenna "is used to receive television broadcast signals" as specified in 47 C.F.R. 1.4000 (assuming none of the exceptions in 47 C.F.R. 1.4000(b), such as safety, historic, etc., apply).

In other words, if I install a ham antenna, either dual-band or UHF, that meets the same compliance requirements as a TV antenna (size, private-use area, etc.), and I use that ham antenna to receive television broadcast signals, I would be in compliance with HOA rules that otherwise prohibit ham radio antennas. But this is not my issue or my question. I'm more interested in the technical implications. I'm not sure that transmitting on such an antenna that is also connected to my TV is a good idea for the TV's sake (or the radio). What are the technical risks here (in layman's terms, please)?

I'm also not sure if a ham radio dual-band or UHF only antenna would even allow decent reception of broadcast TV signals. It seems to me it would work since it's all UHF, although it might not be ideal. But I'm not all that technically savvy.

I'm thinking specifically of something like a Comet GP-3. I currently have only an HT with maximum TX of 4 to 5 watts.

Am I just fishing for trouble here?

Thanks much!

 

[W9WSS]

An HOA can throw just about anything against you, assess a fine, and make your life miserable. You can return with the "legal documentation" to a point, but remember you're dealing with other homeowners, and they don't want to see ANY kind of antennas on their structure. You can drag this thing through court, cost you and the HOA mega-bucks, and you'll most likely end up losing. For the life of me, why would an active amateur radio or CB operator move into an HOA in the first place? "Wife loved the property, and ham radio didn't enter into the mix." Or maybe, "A happy wife is a happy life." NO ONE is ever going to tell me where are what I can put on my roof unless it violates the Village code, and in my case, it never has.

 

[mmckenna]

47 C.F.R. 1.4000(a)(1)(iii) "Any restriction...that impairs the installation, maintenance, or use of...[a]n antenna that is used to receive television broadcast signals...is prohibited..."

It does not specify that a TV antenna be used to receive TV broadcast signals.

Based on this, I'm confident that, legally, an HOA cannot prohibit use of an amateur radio antenna IF that antenna "is used to receive television broadcast signals" as specified in 47 C.F.R. 1.4000 (assuming none of the exceptions in 47 C.F.R. 1.4000(b), such as safety, historic, etc., apply).

There's HOA rules and there are Covenants, Codes and Restrictions. It's likely that when you purchased your home, you signed an agreement that said you would abide by the CC&R's. You probably signed something for the HOA, also.
Signing a document saying you agree to those rules kind of puts you in a bind. Your signature should be worth something in the form of integrity. In other words, you signed an agreement, and now you want out. That doesn't always go so easy.

Yes, I've heard of people using the FCC rules to get around this. But the HOA likely won't make it easy, especially if you do something to annoy a neighbor. Remember, HOA's are not just there to make life difficult, they also play an important role in helping people remember to be good neighbors.

If the HOA rules/CC&R's were written well, there's probably some details that will make this just a bit harder than showing them the FCC rule.


Let us know how it goes for you.

I'm not sure that transmitting on such an antenna that is also connected to my TV is a good idea for the TV's sake (or the radio). What are the technical risks here (in layman's terms, please)?

Transmitting into the same antenna that the TV is actively connected to is going to be a challenge since the RF is going to go into the antenna as well as the TV. The TV is looking for a very weak signal coming from the transmitter. Blasting it with even 4 or 5 watts is going to destroy the receiver in the TV. There are ways to filter this, but it gets complex and expensive. It's a compromise at best and doesn't always work out well.

I'm also not sure if a ham radio dual-band or UHF only antenna would even allow decent reception of broadcast TV signals. It seems to me it would work since it's all UHF, although it might not be ideal. But I'm not all that technically savvy.

"UHF" is a pretty broad term. UHF is generally accepted as 300MHz to 3000MHz.
I suspect you want to use the antenna to transmit on GMRS. That would be 462 and 467MHz. 70cm amateur band is 420-450MHz.
UHF TV can start in the 500MHz range, and that's kind of close to GMRS. Close enough that you'll need good filtering if you plan on transmitting at the same time the TV is connected. Far enough away that antenna performance is going to suffer. Something like a GP3 isn't going to have a lot of gain on 500MHz and up.
Plus, TV signals are usually horizontally polarized, which is why traditional TV antennas are oriented so the elements are horizontal.
Your GP3 antenna is going to be vertical, and your GMRS use is going to prefer vertical.

Some TV signals are still down in the VHF band, but around 200MHz, so not going to play well with an antenna designed for use around 144MHz.

Will it work? Sure, if the TV signals are strong enough.

I'm thinking specifically of something like a Comet GP-3. I currently have only an HT with maximum TX of 4 to 5 watts.

Am I just fishing for trouble here?

Thanks much!

Not fishing for trouble if you look at it as an experiment. Not a cheap solution, however. It's not going to be as easy as just using a coaxial T connector and plugging one side into your TV and the other into your radio.

And the HOA is not likely to back down easily, especially if your neighbors are annoyed. It's not a good idea to move into an HOA community if you want to put up antennas. Yes, there are ways to challenge that, but it won't be free/easy. Ultimately you may find that your neighbors no longer like you, and that can have a big impact on your situation.

There are plenty of ways to mount a small GMRS/ham radio antenna that might sneak past the HOA. There are ways to mount them inside an attic where they are not seen at all and will not be subject to HOA rules.

On the other hand, not all HOA boards are unreasonable. Not all HOA boards are run by people named Karen. Some HOA boards are reasonable if you approach them right. Trying to sneak things in usually doesn't go well. Thinking that reading the FCC rules will make you smarter than all the resources and legal consul the HOA has at their disposal might be underestimating them by a lot.

There are many ways to accomplish this. Choose wisely. Sometimes walking away from a fight is the right thing to do.

 

[WRXJ956]

An HOA can throw just about anything against you, assess a fine, and make your life miserable. You can return with the "legal documentation" to a point, but remember you're dealing with other homeowners, and they don't want to see ANY kind of antennas on their structure. You can drag this thing through court, cost you and the HOA mega-bucks, and you'll most likely end up losing. For the life of me, why would an active amateur radio or CB operator move into an HOA in the first place? "Wife loved the property, and ham radio didn't enter into the mix." Or maybe, "A happy wife is a happy life." NO ONE is ever going to tell me where are what I can put on my roof unless it violates the Village code, and in my case, it never has.

Thanks for the quick response!

You're absolutely right on most of your post. I bought my home before I had any interest in GMRS or ham, and I so regret buying in an HOA community. Nothing but headaches. But like I said, "this is not my issue or my question." My interest in this specific question is technical, e.g., whether things like SWR and impedance are likely to cause damage to the TV and/or radio. Or even if my idea is technically feasible.

Thanks much!

 

[WRXJ956]

There's HOA rules and there are Covenants, Codes and Restrictions. It's likely that when you purchased your home, you signed an agreement that said you would abide by the CC&R's. You probably signed something for the HOA, also.
Signing a document saying you agree to those rules kind of puts you in a bind. Your signature should be worth something in the form of integrity. In other words, you signed an agreement, and now you want out. That doesn't always go so easy.

Yes, I've heard of people using the FCC rules to get around this. But the HOA likely won't make it easy, especially if you do something to annoy a neighbor. Remember, HOA's are not just there to make life difficult, they also play an important role in helping people remember to be good neighbors.

If the HOA rules/CC&R's were written well, there's probably some details that will make this just a bit harder than showing them the FCC rule.


Let us know how it goes for you.



Transmitting into the same antenna that the TV is actively connected to is going to be a challenge since the RF is going to go into the antenna as well as the TV. The TV is looking for a very weak signal coming from the transmitter. Blasting it with even 4 or 5 watts is going to destroy the receiver in the TV. There are ways to filter this, but it gets complex and expensive. It's a compromise at best and doesn't always work out well.



"UHF" is a pretty broad term. UHF is generally accepted as 300MHz to 3000MHz.
I suspect you want to use the antenna to transmit on GMRS. That would be 462 and 467MHz. 70cm amateur band is 420-450MHz.
UHF TV can start in the 500MHz range, and that's kind of close to GMRS. Close enough that you'll need good filtering if you plan on transmitting at the same time the TV is connected. Far enough away that antenna performance is going to suffer. Something like a GP3 isn't going to have a lot of gain on 500MHz and up.
Plus, TV signals are usually horizontally polarized, which is why traditional TV antennas are oriented so the elements are horizontal.
Your GP3 antenna is going to be vertical, and your GMRS use is going to prefer vertical.

Some TV signals are still down in the VHF band, but around 200MHz, so not going to play well with an antenna designed for use around 144MHz.

Will it work? Sure, if the TV signals are strong enough.



Not fishing for trouble if you look at it as an experiment. Not a cheap solution, however. It's not going to be as easy as just using a coaxial T connector and plugging one side into your TV and the other into your radio.

And the HOA is not likely to back down easily, especially if your neighbors are annoyed. It's not a good idea to move into an HOA community if you want to put up antennas. Yes, there are ways to challenge that, but it won't be free/easy. Ultimately you may find that your neighbors no longer like you, and that can have a big impact on your situation.

There are plenty of ways to mount a small GMRS/ham radio antenna that might sneak past the HOA. There are ways to mount them inside an attic where they are not seen at all and will not be subject to HOA rules.

On the other hand, not all HOA boards are unreasonable. Not all HOA boards are run by people named Karen. Some HOA boards are reasonable if you approach them right. Trying to sneak things in usually doesn't go well. Thinking that reading the FCC rules will make you smarter than all the resources and legal consul the HOA has at their disposal might be underestimating them by a lot.

There are many ways to accomplish this. Choose wisely. Sometimes walking away from a fight is the right thing to do.

Thanks much for the response!

Except for the HOA part (that is not my issue), what you posted - "...is going to be a challenge...", "...going to destroy the receiver in the TV," "Not a cheap solution..." - is what I was looking for.

I'll go back to the flower pot idea.

Thanks again!

 

[mmckenna]

Thanks much for the response!

Except for the HOA part (that is not my issue), what you posted - "...is going to be a challenge...", "...going to destroy the receiver in the TV," "Not a cheap solution..." - is what I was looking for.

I'll go back to the flower pot idea.

Thanks again!

It'll really work better. Trying to make one antenna do everything rarely works. If GMRS is your primary interest, skip the Hammy antennas and get something specific for the 460MHz range. It'll work better.

As for a TV antenna, I've got one up in the rafters of my garage that gets me everything I want. I'm not in an HOA, but I do have an outdoor antenna for one of my radios. Didn't feel like putting the TV antenna up there, and it works well where it's at.

 

[FKimble]

An antenna in the attic can work well if there in no or very little metal up there.

Frank

 

[WRXJ956]

An antenna in the attic can work well if there in no or very little metal up there.

Frank

Thanks much!

I'm on the top floor and have 12' vaulted ceiling, so there's not much of an attic, if any. There is a small door that I've never really looked into. I opened it once and was blanketed with insulation, so I closed it back up and haven't opened it since. I'll check that out and see if there's enough height there. That might be might best option. Concealed, best available height.

Thanks again!

 

[Thunderknight]

An antenna in the attic can work well if there in no or very little metal up there.

With the advantage of no need to weatherproof connections and, even years later, the antennas and feedlines look brand new

 

[prcguy]

Thanks much!

I'm on the top floor and have 12' vaulted ceiling, so there's not much of an attic, if any. There is a small door that I've never really looked into. I opened it once and was blanketed with insulation, so I closed it back up and haven't opened it since. I'll check that out and see if there's enough height there. That might be might best option. Concealed, best available height.

Thanks again!

Make sure the insulation is not foil backed.

 

[jonnycat5000]

For the life of me, why would an active amateur radio or CB operator move into an HOA in the first place?

For some of us there is no choice if you want to buy a new-ish home in a decent neighborhood; my city mandates that all new developments operate under an HOA in order to shift property maintenance responsibility off of the city. It works well to keep the lawns looking tidy, but the problem is that HOA contracts are almost always boilerplate docs, most all of which have antenna restrictions baked in.

 

[ChrisABQ]

Do what I did, join the HOA board of directors and have them sign off on it. My antenna was fence mounted on the patio, was not visually an issue and I was able to explain my side of the story convincingly. It was approved. Done.

 

[mmckenna]

Do what I did, join the HOA board of directors and have them sign off on it. My antenna was fence mounted on the patio, was not visually an issue and I was able to explain my side of the story convincingly. It was approved. Done.

This is what many overlook. HOA boards are made up of residents. Several others in my family moved into HOA communities. To prevent a bunch of Karens taking over, they ran for the board and all won.
They treated others with respect and kept things sane. There are rules that were enforced, but they lightened up on a lot of things.

You'll find that most people complaining about HOA's won't take the time to be on the board.

 

[KevinC]

You may also need to check the rules very closely. I can pretty much have anything in my backyard as long as it can't be see from the street. I found that out when I built my children's playset years ago. It was taller than the fence and was on the side of the house that could be seen from the street so I got a violation notice from the HOA. A simple form got it approved, but that's when I learned the "visible from the street" rule.

 

[KO4RJX]

You can also try to get amendments approved through a vote. I received absolute hell on QRZ when I asked a question regarding HOA and my desire to get the rules changed. I mean absolute hell.

Guess what….6 months later when the HOA made other amendments to ease some restrictions Amateur Radio antennas went from 100% restricted to allowed after ARC approval. It took talking to one board member and explaining my desire to put up something that isn’t seen from the front yard to get the changed made. If you have a good HOA it may be worth a simple discussion before trying to skirt rules with interpretation. I came close to doing the same thing but decided to play my odds. Worked out in my favor.

 

[mmckenna]

QRZ

"Well, there's your problem right there!"

 

[KO4RJX]

"Well, there's your problem right there!"

Agreed

 

[GlobalNorth]

I've watched some HOAs get very vindictive with residents who want a variance on a backyard shed, the old C-band satellite dish antennas, old and infirm people who can't move their trash cans around like a 20 year old can, etc.

Avoid battles with them because they can sanction you without much recourse and slap a lien on your property, only have you learn of it later after the interest and penalties accumulate.

Jonnycat 5000 is right in that many towns and cities have farmed out code compliance issues to these groups and many of them have no inherent right of redress of grievances. I don't have the interest in joining an HOA board, but my spouse tried. The list of Karens and the elderly was long and if you were not an initial buyer, they look down on you like some decades old Technician that took the 5wpm code and acts now as if they have a MSEE from MIT and looks down on an Extra class with a BSEE, but took the no code exam.

 

[N9JIG]

This is what many overlook. HOA boards are made up of residents. Several others in my family moved into HOA communities. To prevent a bunch of Karens taking over, they ran for the board and all won.
They treated others with respect and kept things sane. There are rules that were enforced, but they lightened up on a lot of things.

You'll find that most people complaining about HOA's won't take the time to be on the board.

In many states (including my own) "HOA" boards may be under the control of the builder until construction is complete in the development when the residents can then vote on members. In my HOA the resident members (2) are appointed by the builder and the other 3 are employees of the builder. Until the place is completely built out (probably 15 years from now) the builder will control the board and be able to dictate the terms. Only then will we have a true HOA made up of voting residents.

 

[kf8yk]

47 C.F.R. 1.4000(a)(1)(iii) "Any restriction...that impairs the installation, maintenance, or use of...[a]n antenna that is used to receive television broadcast signals...is prohibited..."

I'm thinking specifically of something like a Comet GP-3. I currently have only an HT with maximum TX of 4 to 5 watts.

The GP-3 is nearly 6' long, CFR 1.4000 limits antennas to no larger than a 1m (3.3') diameter.

You're not the first to consider this code for ham radio: https://w6nbc.com/articles/2016-03QSTdishslot.pdf