BCD436HP/BCD536HP: Hytera DMR XPT question

Status
Not open for further replies.

kc5igh

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
724
Location
Velarde, New Mexico
You can start with OneFrequencyTrunked and program all frequencies there. Then for sure you have to hear the conversations if you have enough signal strength. The disadvantage are that you will only hear the conversation as long as it stays on the same frequency. If it jumps to another frequency the scanner will leave the site and system and go to next system.

If it turns out to be a multi channel XPT system it's better to program it as MotoTrbo as the scanner then will follow any calls that jumps between channels, if you have the LCN's correctly figured out, best to do by using LCN Finder. The disadvantage are that you will hear very little or nothing at all if you have the LCN's screwed up. So probably best to start with OFT and enable ID Search.

/Ubbe

Thanks, Ubbe. That makes a lot of sense to me.

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)
 

kc5igh

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
724
Location
Velarde, New Mexico
This may or may not work, but for a XPT system in my area, I found that the 5 frequencies all had a LCN of 1, so it was like 5 different sites. When I discover a new system, I start with 2 sites, one Confirmed and the other Unconfirmed. I’ll put all the frequencies in the Unconfirmed site and run the LCN finder. As LCN’s are found, I move those frequencies to the Confirmed site. As it ended up, I ended up with all having LCN 1. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks, KG4KHQ. I've got some experimenting to do, and this looks like a good way to start when I give it a try as a "MotoTRBO Trunk" site.

In the meantime, I'm going to take Ubbe's advice and start with the "One-Freq Trunk" program first.

-Johnnie (K5IGH)
 

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
5,960
Location
Chicago , IL
This may or may not work, but for a XPT system in my area, I found that the 5 frequencies all had a LCN of 1, so it was like 5 different sites. When I discover a new system, I start with 2 sites, one Confirmed and the other Unconfirmed. I’ll put all the frequencies in the Unconfirmed site and run the LCN finder. As LCN’s are found, I move those frequencies to the Confirmed site. As it ended up, I ended up with all having LCN 1. Your mileage may vary.

I have read of some oddities with programming these systems and add this one to the list. I know if you try to program the same LCN during manual programming, the scanner will reject it. In this scenario, do you add all the frequencies in the site and give them an LCN of 1 via Sentinel, and then write to the scanner, or 5 separate MotoTRBO sites with 1 frequency per site and giving each frequency an LCN of 1 ?
 

KG4KHQ

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
289
Location
High Point NC
I put the 5 frequencies in my UNCOMFIRMED site all with a LCN of 0 and then run the LCN finder. As a LCN’s are discovered, I move them to the COMFIRMED site and delete them from the UNCONFIRMED site. In this particular system, it ended up with 5 sites, each containing a single frequency and a LCN of 1.
 

R0am3r

Salt Water Conch
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
740
Location
Oneida County, NY
I put the 5 frequencies in my UNCOMFIRMED site all with a LCN of 0 and then run the LCN finder. As a LCN’s are discovered, I move them to the COMFIRMED site and delete them from the UNCONFIRMED site. In this particular system, it ended up with 5 sites, each containing a single frequency and a LCN of 1.

I have monitored several XPT systems here in Upstate NY and found that a LCN of 0 will allow my SDS series radios to scan (and receive) the frequencies properly. Please note this is a serial process and the scanning simply hops through the list of frequencies. I have found that most of the talk groups for these systems are anchored to a specific frequency and they seldom use the other available frequencies. I am guessing the frequency assignment is by design.
 

kc5igh

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
724
Location
Velarde, New Mexico
Greetings:

Has anyone out there ever tried to monitor a Hytera XPT (Extended Pseudo Trunking) system with their Uniden scanners?

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks.

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)

UPDATE: I'm fairly certain I've figured out how to program the DMR Hytera XPT system I was asking about!

Although the system seems to be active on only one frequency, I followed the advice I received on this Forum and programmed it as a "MotoTRBO" trunked system, not as a "One-Freq Trunk" system. That said, I initially gave the frequency a LCN of "1" and started picking up talkgroups and skipping the "beacon/rest channel" signal as predicted by Ubbe and others.

It may be my imagination (I need to do some more experimenting), but when I changed the LCN to "0," the radios (SDS100, BCD436HP, and BCD325P2) seemed to perform a little better . . . of course, this is hard to prove without a direct radio-to-radio comparison.

Many thanks to all who shared their ideas, suggestions, and experiences with me! I don't think I would ever have thought to program a LCN of one or zero for that single channel without your input!

As noted above, I need to do a little more testing and experimenting, but this has been fun!

Thanks again!

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)
 

cg

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2000
Messages
4,656
Location
Connecticut
I believe you are simply monitoring the channels without the beacon signals. Unless you can program, hold and lockout talkgroups, you really aren't monitoring it as a system. Uniden hadn't quite finished the development on various non Motorola systems.
When I use DSDPlus on a busy XPT system, I watch talkgroups move between frequencies as the primary channel gets busy. The problem is that you still need to be monitoring the HOME channel to know where a conversation goes if that channel is busy. Busy multiple channel systems are difficult to track.

chris
 

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
5,960
Location
Chicago , IL
I believe you are simply monitoring the channels without the beacon signals. Unless you can program, hold and lockout talkgroups, you really aren't monitoring it as a system. Uniden hadn't quite finished the development on various non Motorola systems.
When I use DSDPlus on a busy XPT system, I watch talkgroups move between frequencies as the primary channel gets busy. The problem is that you still need to be monitoring the HOME channel to know where a conversation goes if that channel is busy. Busy multiple channel systems are difficult to track.

chris

I believe when programmed as MOTO/TRBO trunking mode, it will not track unless it finds a rest channel. It doesn't scan through the frequencies like GRE's.
 

ka3jjz

Wiki Admin Emeritus
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
25,470
Location
Bowie, Md.
This is something that, once again, has never been documented or resolved, so it's left up to us to do it.

I'd like to put this 'solution' (as much as we have now, anyway) into our wiki so that others fighting the XPT bug have at least a partial way around it

So the steps and results, as I understand it (and correct me here) are;
  • Program the system as a MOTOTRBO
  • Enter each frequency using a LCN of zero
  • (What about the slot and color code?)
  • When the system scans, it's not really trunktracking, but it's reading and decoding the data, supplying the LCN, color code and slot (how very Whistler like)
Did I miss something here? Has anyone tried this method on other Hytera systems besides the folks in this thread?
 

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
5,960
Location
Chicago , IL
This is something that, once again, has never been documented or resolved, so it's left up to us to do it.

I'd like to put this 'solution' (as much as we have now, anyway) into our wiki so that others fighting the XPT bug have at least a partial way around it

So the steps and results, as I understand it (and correct me here) are;
  • Program the system as a MOTOTRBO
  • Enter each frequency using a LCN of zero
  • (What about the slot and color code?)
  • When the system scans, it's not really trunktracking, but it's reading and decoding the data, supplying the LCN, color code and slot (how very Whistler like)
Did I miss something here? Has anyone tried this method on other Hytera systems besides the folks in this thread?

When you program as a MotoTRBO Trunking system, the Slot is "assigned" by the rest channel/data stream. Color Code can be programmed as "search". I thought you mentioned you programmed the one frequency as LCN 1 and it was decoding talkgroups, and yes it is trunking if set up correctly. You might have another frequency in use which might be your LCN of 2? Now that you have it set up as a trunking system, and when it's busier, run the LCN finder and see how many of the frequencies are being utilized. If time passes and you're only getting a message of "1 of 5 found", or "2 of 5 found", press the enter button and it will ask you if you want to save...yes. Then return to trunking the system and listen if you have more activity than before.

You can always return to your LCN's of 0 if this doesn't improve things.
 

R0am3r

Salt Water Conch
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
740
Location
Oneida County, NY
No I'm just trying to document this mess - it's someone else who is trying to hear this system...

Here are a few additions you may want to use:

Program the system as a MOTOTRBO
Add Department(s) (e.g. All)
Add Site(s) (e.g. Casino)
Select Department(s) and add Talk Group(s) (e.g. Channel Name, TGID, Service Type)
Select Site(s) and add frequencies
-- Enter each frequency use a LCN of zero
-- Select the appropriate Color Code (e.g. Color Code 7). If unknown, select Color Code Search

When the system scans, it's not really trunktracking, but it's reading and decoding the data, supplying the LCN, color code and slot (how very Whistler like). The scanner checks each frequency in order.

I don't believe the LCN finder will yield anything useful with the SDS series scanners. Hence, I always use 0 for the LCN (for XPT systems).
 
Last edited:

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
5,960
Location
Chicago , IL
I don't believe the LCN finder will yield anything useful with the SDS series scanners. Hence, I always use 0 for the LCN (for XPT systems).

Actually it does work on a MotoTRBO trunking system, but the system has to have activity in order for it to detemine LCN. If the system is slower, or if all the frequencies aren't in use, running LCN finder will produce limited results. I've never monitored a Hytera system, and if has any similarities to a MotoTRBO system, this "might" work.

I mentioned running LCN finder for a period of time as it will stop analyzing without activity.
 

kc5igh

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
724
Location
Velarde, New Mexico
I believe you are simply monitoring the channels without the beacon signals. Unless you can program, hold and lockout talkgroups, you really aren't monitoring it as a system. Uniden hadn't quite finished the development on various non Motorola systems.
When I use DSDPlus on a busy XPT system, I watch talkgroups move between frequencies as the primary channel gets busy. The problem is that you still need to be monitoring the HOME channel to know where a conversation goes if that channel is busy. Busy multiple channel systems are difficult to track.

chris

No . . . I'm able to program, hold, and lock out talkgroups with this configuration.

I've detected seven talkgroups and identified and labeled six talkgroups, so far: (102 - security [my label], 104 - slots, 105 - gaming [my label], 106 - housekeeping, 109 - engineering, 108 - facilities, and two (101 and 103) as yet unidentified. There are more, because, if I remember correctly, I heard a system user referring to 109 as "channel 11." I'm guessing there's an "all call" and/or "emergency" channel in there somewhere and some others that either don't get used very often or get moved over to another frequency and/or color (So far, all this traffic seems to be happening on a single frequency under the color "10").

What prompted me to start this project in the first place were my early programming efforts to configure this system as conventional, non-trunking; one-frequency DMR trunking; or MotoTRBO trunking. The conventional, non-trunking mode picked up all the voice traffic, but couldn't identify talkgroups, of course, and it would get hung up on the non-audible "beacon/rest channel," which prevented me from scanning other systems at the same time. One-frequency DMR trunking didn't seem to do the trick, and I didn't know to try LCN's one or zero in the MotoTRBO mode until it was suggested in this forum.

As I said earlier, I still need to do some additional research and experimentation, beginning with sitting out in the parking lot when it finally cools off a little with one of my radios running in "close call" mode. That should tell me whether or not there are additional channels and/or colors.

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)
 

kc5igh

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
724
Location
Velarde, New Mexico
This is something that, once again, has never been documented or resolved, so it's left up to us to do it.

I'd like to put this 'solution' (as much as we have now, anyway) into our wiki so that others fighting the XPT bug have at least a partial way around it

So the steps and results, as I understand it (and correct me here) are;
  • Program the system as a MOTOTRBO
  • Enter each frequency using a LCN of zero
  • (What about the slot and color code?)
  • When the system scans, it's not really trunktracking, but it's reading and decoding the data, supplying the LCN, color code and slot (how very Whistler like)
Did I miss something here? Has anyone tried this method on other Hytera systems besides the folks in this thread?

That's a good summation, ka3jjz, except that in this case, I've entered only one frequency, and this configuration actually seems to be "trunktracking" (i.e. programmable TG's that can be put on hold and/or locked out).

For what it's worth, they're actually using Hytera radios, which may or may not be important.

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)
 

kc5igh

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
724
Location
Velarde, New Mexico
When you program as a MotoTRBO Trunking system, the Slot is "assigned" by the rest channel/data stream. Color Code can be programmed as "search". I thought you mentioned you programmed the one frequency as LCN 1 and it was decoding talkgroups, and yes it is trunking if set up correctly. You might have another frequency in use which might be your LCN of 2? Now that you have it set up as a trunking system, and when it's busier, run the LCN finder and see how many of the frequencies are being utilized. If time passes and you're only getting a message of "1 of 5 found", or "2 of 5 found", press the enter button and it will ask you if you want to save...yes. Then return to trunking the system and listen if you have more activity than before.

You can always return to your LCN's of 0 if this doesn't improve things.

Thanks, werinshades, I plan to do exactly that if and when I find any additional frequencies in use. I need to brush up on how to use the LCN feature in my SDS100. I thought I had to know and enter all the frequencies in order to launch an LCN search, but if that's not the case . . .

So far, all this traffic is coming through on one frequency under color "10."

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)
 

kc5igh

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
724
Location
Velarde, New Mexico
Here are a few additions you may want to use:

Program the system as a MOTOTRBO
Add Department(s) (e.g. All)
Add Site(s) (e.g. Casino)
Select Department(s) and add Talk Group(s) (e.g. Channel Name, TGID, Service Type)
Select Site(s) and add frequencies
-- Enter each frequency use a LCN of zero
-- Select the appropriate Color Code (e.g. Color Code 7). If unknown, select Color Code Search

When the system scans, it's not really trunktracking, but it's reading and decoding the data, supplying the LCN, color code and slot (how very Whistler like). The scanner checks each frequency in order.

I don't believe the LCN finder will yield anything useful with the SDS series scanners. Hence, I always use 0 for the LCN (for XPT systems).

I did all that, R0am3r, and I'm happy to report that my scanners are "trunktracking," i.e. they're monitoring the talkgroups I programmed into memory and they're able to hold and lockout individual TG's.

Thanks.

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)
 

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
5,960
Location
Chicago , IL
No . . . I'm able to program, hold, and lock out talkgroups with this configuration.

I've detected seven talkgroups and identified and labeled six talkgroups, so far: (102 - security [my label], 104 - slots, 105 - gaming [my label], 106 - housekeeping, 109 - engineering, 108 - facilities, and two (101 and 103) as yet unidentified. There are more, because, if I remember correctly, I heard a system user referring to 109 as "channel 11." I'm guessing there's an "all call" and/or "emergency" channel in there somewhere and some others that either don't get used very often or get moved over to another frequency and/or color (So far, all this traffic seems to be happening on a single frequency under the color "10").

What prompted me to start this project in the first place were my early programming efforts to configure this system as conventional, non-trunking; one-frequency DMR trunking; or MotoTRBO trunking. The conventional, non-trunking mode picked up all the voice traffic, but couldn't identify talkgroups, of course, and it would get hung up on the non-audible "beacon/rest channel," which prevented me from scanning other systems at the same time. One-frequency DMR trunking didn't seem to do the trick, and I didn't know to try LCN's one or zero in the MotoTRBO mode until it was suggested in this forum.

As I said earlier, I still need to do some additional research and experimentation, beginning with sitting out in the parking lot when it finally cools off a little with one of my radios running in "close call" mode. That should tell me whether or not there are additional channels and/or colors.

-Johnnie (KC5IGH)

You have a good grasp of what you're doing now, so you'll do your own detective work. Here's a talkgroup programming suggestion...it "appears" they're using Channels 1-16 as most radios have 16 channels available to use. Since you're already text tagging your talkgroups, maybe add the others as "Channel x" until you can identify them. Talkgroups 101-116 are probably available, but not all channels are in use. I'd still leave it in ID Search in case they surprise you one day, but good job on your work, and kudos on your patience.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top