Inexpensive cap+ DMR handheld recommendations?

[MikeArnold]

All true, I don't Know yet. That's why I need to get up to speed on how all this works...

Can anyone recommend a good introductory source of DMR information?

 

[TampaTyron]

Get a Motorola account and sign up for the learning portal and get all the MOTOTRBO classes you can afford. Also, download the MOTOTRBO system planner and read it. Then read it again. TT

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Also channel assignments in the radio are actually talk groups...which doesn't directly correlate to the number of repeaters. Getting into trunking theory...you'll want to look up telephone trunking concepts as well.

 

[MikeArnold]

I may have to, Motorola just strikes me as aggressively incompetent. Chirp can talk to hundreds of different radios from dozens of brands, but not only do Motorola radios fail this compatibility test, they don't even have programability inside their own company! Each type and sub set of Motorola radios is incompatible with every other type. It would be like buying a Motorola brand car and finding out the gas port is square instead of round and can't use a normal gas station. This kind of unnecessary incompetence makes me roundly dislike the brand before I learn anything else about it : (

 

[mmckenna]

I may have to, Motorola just strikes me as aggressively incompetent.

Depends on who you talk to at Motorola.
Public safety users usually have an account team with engineers.
Ham/hobby/low end commercial users do tend to fall through the cracks, and that has a lot to do with their structuring of their lower tier product support/sales.
You are not the first one to point this out.

Chirp can talk to hundreds of different radios from dozens of brands,

Probably not what you want to hear, but there is an enormous difference between the Chinese radio-on-a-chip devices and the higher tier commercial stuff, and yes, there is a difference. If you start to get into trunking and advanced features, the requirements for the software quickly outpace what Chirp can handle.

I understand what you are saying, but you are playing in a different league here. Big difference between ham/hobby and the more complex commercial gear.

but not only do Motorola radios fail this compatibility test, they don't even have programability inside their own company! Each type and sub set of Motorola radios is incompatible with every other type. It would be like buying a Motorola brand car and finding out the gas port is square instead of round and can't use a normal gas station. This kind of unnecessary incompetence makes me roundly dislike the brand before I learn anything else about it : (

Again, you appear to be missing the realities of the products here. These are not $30 Chinese radios that are all essentially built off the same chip. The market you want to play in has a lot of complexities that it is apparent you don't comprehend yet.
And it's not Just Motorola. Other brands do the same thing. The products are very different and the feature sets are very complex once you get beyond the basic conventional channel applications.

One of the few high end companies that (more or less) gets the programing software thing right is Harris. But those products are going to be astronomically out of your stated budget.

 

[dickie757]

Help understanding how to program a CAP+ system

Hey all, Im new to programming on this type of level (using the XPR7550e). Ive played around with HT's and CDM quite extensively through the years, and have played with CP200D's for the last few years but have never really had the drive to learn the cap+ stuff. Now i own a nicer radio and want...

forums.radioreference.com

Try this thread as tiny grain of the whole beach.

Just wait until you run into an alarm system on the repeater pair that is using different PL tones, that's analog of course, but I found it because we were (not any more) switching them to conventional Mototrbo, using mostly 3300s.

I have enrolled in said LXP classes. The more I learn, the more I need to learn grows exponentially. Once you really grasp the subscriber side of Cap+, you will see how advanced it is.

 

[Tech21]

I may have to, Motorola just strikes me as aggressively incompetent. Chirp can talk to hundreds of different radios from dozens of brands, but not only do Motorola radios fail this compatibility test, they don't even have programability inside their own company! Each type and sub set of Motorola radios is incompatible with every other type. It would be like buying a Motorola brand car and finding out the gas port is square instead of round and can't use a normal gas station. This kind of unnecessary incompetence makes me roundly dislike the brand before I learn anything else about it : (

You're calling Motorola incompetent when you don't understand the system you are complaining about because again, you don't understand it, you don't like big M and you can't use cheap chinese radios on it.

Motorola isn't the one that has to make their radios systems compatible with every one else, it's the other way around. Unfortunately, big M sets the rules the radio world plays by.

 

[kayn1n32008]

If you have a Motorola Cap+ repeater you may not be able to just turn off the cap+ and use straight DMR.

Changing from Cap+ to conventional involves reprogramming the repeater and all of the subscribers.

The repeater can be used as a conventional repeater as easily as a Cap+ trunking repeater. If it is featured for Cap+, it is also featured for conventional.

 

[RaleighGuy]

that is not how all call works on a Cap + system

Stand corrected thanks, I've seen conventional set up that way and that's what I was thinking about.

 

[kayn1n32008]

We have 6 FCC frequencies and only 5 channels which is part of why I'm annoyed. They don't even use the DMR features - the only reason to justify them (might) be interference or clarity, but I'm sceptical.
Basically someone who knew nothing said "Give us the best." And that was translated into 'we know nothing, take us for everything we're worth'.

I'd suggest you leave this for someone competent.

I read your post on Quora. You have just barely enough knowledge to be incredibly dangerous.

A Cap+ repeater system is not 2 garbage baofengs wired together to make a repeater.

That you are claiming here that Baofengs are even a reasonable alternative to a competently set up commercial radio system is laughable.

While I would normally commend someone for wanting to learn, it appears you have your mind already made up about the system.

 

[kayn1n32008]

So you're the "radio guy" that those of us who do this professionally have to come in after and unf**k everything you've done because "you know what you're doing."

Guys like this guy are how Baofengs and other CCR's end up in the hands of firefighters.

The OP just needs to stop and let this be for someone competent.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I may have to, Motorola just strikes me as aggressively incompetent. Chirp can talk to hundreds of different radios from dozens of brands, but not only do Motorola radios fail this compatibility test, they don't even have programability inside their own company! Each type and sub set of Motorola radios is incompatible with every other type. It would be like buying a Motorola brand car and finding out the gas port is square instead of round and can't use a normal gas station. This kind of unnecessary incompetence makes me roundly dislike the brand before I learn anything else about it : (

First off, Motorola has Tiers of radio products. Even in the MotoTRBO series there are about 3 tiers of radios and not all of the functionality is available on all Tiers of radios.

Chirp is free software that is NOT used by professionals. It's free ware for hams to program the crop of mostly junk radios that have exploded out of the 'radio on a chip' fad that cheap ass hams have embraced.

 

[N4KVE]

Now guys, CCR’s aren’t all that bad. They make handy targets at the range.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Now guys, CCR’s aren’t all that bad. They make handy targets at the range.

That's all they are really useful for.

 

[PACNWDude]

I cringe when I hear that corporations are using CCR's for something that may be used for "life safety" related use. +1 on the person above who mentioned they are good for target practice (and amateur use, I'll give them that).

But, what seems to get left behind is the surplus market. I just purchased 100 refurbished Motorola HT-1250 LS+ radios for use by a group that needed intrinsically safe radios (and batteries that will be from Battery Universe as Motorola discontinued them a while back now), and I paid $50 for the radio and almost $100 for that battery. Yet, these are much better than something made in China and sold for $20-35 and programmable with "Chirp" software.

I have backed out of contracts when I have noticed what is being used for radios, desk phone, and vehicles by potential vendors/contractors. If they are not serious about comms, they must be cost cutting elsewhere too.....which means I do not want to risk business wit that company.

The bare minimum for my employer and many fire departments, commercial trucking organizations, forklift operators, and others is analog FM Motorola (HT-750's are the oldest model still in use, excepting some Maxtrac's as base stations - they still work and will not die).

 

[MTS2000des]

Chirp is a hobby toy intended for hobby, ham ang GMRS radios.
From the O/Ps posts, he/she is deploying radios presumably used in a plant so was stated. There are tools and there are toys.
If these subscribers are part of someone's safety plan, why not do it right? I applaud one for wanting to learn- great. But playing with safety of employees is all good, until it isn't.
If one is out of their league, it's okay to turn it over to one who has the experience, training, certifications, and liability insurance and let them assume the risk and responsibility.

A hobbyist website should never be a go-to for professional, safety of life and property tools- neither should low cost dubious products like CCRs either. But what do I know. I only do it for a living.

Several fellow comms professionals have given solid advice. No need to rehash. Just remember what is posted on the web is public. Something happens and "it' was all good, until it wasn't" comes home to roost.

 

[KevinC]

What you'll typically get asking questions about Motorola commercial/professional equipment on a hobbyist forum...

1. Hobbyists that may or may not know anything about what you're asking, but they just HAVE to reply.
2. Motorola haters that tell you everything Motorola does is evil (even though they never used any Motorola equipment, but they "heard" about something that happened last century). Or they had Mostars and base all the opinions on that one radio model.
3. Motorola lovers that tell you Motorola can do no wrong.
4. The guys that have been doing this forever and only provide info that was relevant 30 years ago.
5. The guys that have been doing this forever and actually have and give honest info/opinions without bashing Motorola. These are the guys to listen to and it's easy to tell who they are.

Carry on.

 

[mmckenna]

I'd suggest you leave this for someone competent.

I read your post on Quora. You have just barely enough knowledge to be incredibly dangerous.

I read the Quora post, and I agree with this observation.

I've had to mop up messes like this, and it doesn't end well. Sure, management thinks you are a hero for a few weeks because you improved their bottom line for a quarter. Eventually the low tier ham/hobby gear fails and the complaints start . Someone will start to question the failing radios, waste and unreliable equipment. If someone gets hurt, expensive equipment gets damaged, or production gets halted, they'll come looking for someone to blame.

Don't be the guy they blame for this. Short term cost savings look good on paper, for a quarter. Long term, someone comes looking for the cause of constant failures, poor performance, waste and impact on operations.

There are absolutely ways to build cost effective radio systems. That way does not usually include buying all your gear off Amazon.

 

[MSS-Dave]

So yeah, tell me again how its harmless to charge $350 for a $20 radio. If I've personally seen this happen it's not a stretch to extrapolate this out and say this price gouging costs fingers

The fact that you are almost totally unfamiliar with what you're doing is sticking out in this quote right here. You have the whole concept bas-ackwards. Somewhere in one of your posts you said when a radio didn't work you had to send somebody running to go get help or make a call. You also said that when a radio fails you can just buy another one. When you're standing there with somebody caught in a machine ( or heart attack or poisonous snake bite yada yada yada...) and your "CCR" 🙄 takes a dump because it falls apart in your hand you're doing the same damn thing. Would you quick like a bunny order another one off of Amazon while somebody's mangled themselves in a machine? Hope a drone drops it off to you in time with a charged battery? Hope it actually works when it's turned on and programmed to the right frequencies and talk groups? How much do you think any kind of an injury or a life is worth? Make it even worse on a remote job site? With an analogy like this, you're better off just having everybody have a company provided cell phone. No service? Leave it to the pros to figure it out.

Most of the people responding to your post including myself have years and years doing exactly what you're trying to figure out. A few of them are very experienced with Motorola CAP+ systems. Using Baofeng and Motorola CAP+ working together somehow in the same sentence is hilarious but even more troubling is the fact that you're trying to implement this. Trying to justify cost over life safety is the most troubling aspect of this all.

My most humble suggestions are these.

Stop justifying cost per radio and trying to whack whoever supplied the Motorola system as "price gouging" your company. I'm not necessarily a Motorola fanboi (anymore...) but DMR technology is pretty solid when implemented by a reputable company. If anybody wanted to price gouge they would have sold you P25 but I digress.

Learn all you can about RF technology then start learning about DMR system technology if you're going to stick with the Capacity Plus stuff. Try to understand how it works, why it works the way it does and how best to implement it when you do learn it. In the meantime, do your due diligence in selecting a vendor that can service what you have if you don't have one now. Best time to select that vendor is before something is screwed up or broke trying to make it work with crap radios and they have to come "un**** it" as somebody else pointed out. I've been there and done that. It did not go well. Based on what you have been posting it does not appear that you know enough about that system to effectively manage it.

Don't leave a legacy of "Save a Buck Bob". You are a hero if it works but in this particular situation, you're just speeding towards the edge of the Grand Canyon in a bus that has no brakes. You may have saved thousands of dollars in equipment cost but if everybody's dead, it ceases to matter

Best of luck in getting this whole thing wrangled up and heading down the right road.

 

[petnrdx]

I *think* I read most of this carefully, but maybe I missed this IMPORTANT point if someone else brought it up.
Complaining that ANY brand (But in this case Motorola) is not programmable by CHIRP is kinda foolish.
There are reasons why most manufacturers have different software for each product line.
Not just to make money as some believe.
Part of that is a little bit of security so that people that don't have enough info are not just programming radios
willy nilly onto other peoples systems/frequencies and such.
This is added to the need of the manufacturers to make their software work in these increasingly complex environments
(the radio system environments). CAP+ is significantly more complex than Tier III.
And to reduce the likelihood of people "bootlegging" onto someone else's systems.
Those of us doing this for decades know of TOO MANY cases where well meaning people screwed up somebody's
system, or unscrupulous vendors "put" someone on a system where they were not paying or not supposed to be.
Do us all a favor and read up on all of this and listen to the many posters in this thread.
Centuries of experience here.