• To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:

    Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.

    If you are having trouble legally obtaining software please state so. We do not want any hurt feelings when your vague post is mistaken for a free request. It is YOUR responsibility to properly word your request.

    To obtain Motorola software see the Sticky in the Motorola forum.

    The various other vendors often permit their dealers to sell the software online (i.e., Kenwood). Please use Google or some other search engine to find a dealer that sells the software. Typically each series or individual radio requires its own software package. Often the Kenwood software is less than $100 so don't be a cheapskate; just purchase it.

    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

    This is a large and very visible forum. We cannot jeopardize the ability to provide the RadioReference services by allowing this activity to occur. Please respect this.

Isn't this dangerous?

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fredva

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I'm not in the business and don't claim to be an expert, but the phrases "shall be provided" and "shall be capable" stand out to me. I'm not seeing "shall be used" or "must be used'. To me, it says the option must be available, especially when you combine it with the next statement regarding trunking systems being permitted.
 

crazyboy

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I'm not in the business and don't claim to be an expert, but the phrases "shall be provided" and "shall be capable" stand out to me. I'm not seeing "shall be used" or "must be used'. To me, it says the option must be available, especially when you combine it with the next statement regarding trunking systems being permitted.

Exactly! Not saying I agree with using a TRS on the fire ground but NFPA permits it.
 

KK4JUG

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I'm not in the business and don't claim to be an expert, but the phrases "shall be provided" and "shall be capable" stand out to me. I'm not seeing "shall be used" or "must be used'. To me, it says the option must be available, especially when you combine it with the next statement regarding trunking systems being permitted.

"Shall be" is mandatory but that mandate is only to meet the NFPA standards. The NFPA notwithstanding, it still good practice. BUT, it's not law.
 

mmckenna

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From the 2016 Text

……

9.3.1.5* Trunked system talk groups shall be permitted to be
used to provide on-scene tactical communications if desired by
the AHJ, and the provisions of9.3.1.3 and 9.3.1.4 shall still
apply.

Special Attention to 9.3.1.5

Thanks, the 2010 version has 9.3.1.5 talks about portable radios having capability in coverage areas without requiring external amplifiers.

Time for me to order an updated version.
 

mmckenna

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"Shall be" is mandatory but that mandate is only to meet the NFPA standards. The NFPA notwithstanding, it still good practice. BUT, it's not law.

Right.
And each jurisdiction chooses to adopt NFPA rules, and which version. Not uncommon for some areas to be a few years behind.
 

Voyager

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From the 2016 Text
9.3.1.3* A communications radio channel, separate from the
radio dispatch channel, shall be provided for on-scene tactical
communications.
9.3.1.4* At a minimum, the tactical communications channel
identified in 9.3.1.3 shall be capable of operating in analog
simplex mode.
9.3.1.5* Trunked system talk groups shall be permitted to be
used to provide on-scene tactical communications if desired by
the AHJ, and the provisions of9.3.1.3 and 9.3.1.4 shall still
apply.

Special Attention to 9.3.1.5

Just what we need - another debate over meaningless rules. 9.3.1.5 seems to not be possible while still following the others. There are no analog simplex talkgroups or analog simplex trunked systems.

For those who non't know, AHJ is Agency Having Jurisdiction.
 

Voyager

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Have to remember technically they are not rules. They are recommended standards many places do not go by what the NFPA says or recommends.

That is true, but they carry the same legal weight as laws.

Congress makes laws. Agencies make regulations or standards. Regardless what the source is, if laws or standards or regulations are not followed, there is liability.

Even when you are not in an OSHA state, OSHA regulations will be the standard by which actions are judged with respect to occupational safety. If you are found to have violated an established standard, you are liable.

Breaking laws is worse than violating standards or regulations, but either will make you guilty in a court case. Again, regulations and standards carry the same weight as laws.
 

mule1075

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Just what we need - another debate over meaningless rules. 9.3.1.5 seems to not be possible while still following the others. There are no analog simplex talkgroups or analog simplex trunked systems.

For those who non't know, AHJ is Agency Having Jurisdiction.
Not another debate Joe it is what is it is. Paid or volunteer this is how it is. We can debate this all day and you will lose. We are not policy makers but we think we are or should.
 

Voyager

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I would not lose. My point is that 9.3.1.5 allows a case that does not exist with the current technology. That is a fact. Please cite a system that has trunked analog simplex if you wish to say I'm wrong.
 
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mule1075

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That is true, but they carry the same legal weight as laws.

Congress makes laws. Agencies make regulations or standards. Regardless what the source is, if laws or standards or regulations are not followed, there is liability.

Even when you are not in an OSHA state, OSHA regulations will be the standard by which actions are judged with respect to occupational safety. If you are found to have violated an established standard, you are liable.

Breaking laws is worse than violating standards or regulations, but either will make you guilty in a court case. Again, regulations and standards carry the same weight as laws.
Joe you have to much time on your hands. We all know what should be done and what should not. Basically you think you should or know everything about it you do not. Let's agree to disagree I will put you on the list for the IAFF contract that you could tell us to better that I am negotiation.
 

crazyboy

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Just what we need - another debate over meaningless rules. 9.3.1.5 seems to not be possible while still following the others. There are no analog simplex talkgroups or analog simplex trunked systems.

For those who non't know, AHJ is Agency Having Jurisdiction.

"shall be provided" & "shall be capable" nothing says shall be used for all tactical communications. Just needs to be there in case needed.
 

Voyager

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"shall be provided" & "shall be capable" nothing says shall be used for all tactical communications. Just needs to be there in case needed.

9.3.1.5 contains neither of those phrases.

9.3.1.4* At a minimum, the tactical communications channel
identified in 9.3.1.3 shall be capable of operating in analog
simplex mode.

Same challenge: Please cite one system that uses analog simplex talkgroups.
 

ten13

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The bottom line in all this is: do the people in the police/fire departments KNOW what kind of radio system they are buying when they sign the contract?

The answer, from my experience, is a resounding NO.

It's right for us, here, with varying amounts of hands-on radio knowledge to (rightfully) condemn the use of these systems for emergency operations, but unfortunately, we are not formally consulted, much less even asked about, the pros and cons of such a system.

The bosses who sign the contract ask a few rudimentary questions (primarily: how much?) while the Motorola rep nods in agreement with each question.

Then, when that poor guy in the cellar, lost with no air, tries to get on the radio for help and all he gets is a lot of chirping, everyone wants to know, how come? And Motorola's answer is (and I've seen this in some articles) that the system worked "as designed....". That covers Motorola from any liability and puts the entire liability on the Department who bought the system. In other words, the Department "knew....or should have known..." what they were buying, flaws and all.

But did they?
 

belvdr

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9.3.1.5 contains neither of those phrases.

9.3.1.4* At a minimum, the tactical communications channel
identified in 9.3.1.3 shall be capable of operating in analog
simplex mode.

Same challenge: Please cite one system that uses analog simplex talkgroups.

9.3.1.3 doesn’t specify anything about talkgroups. It simply says an alternate fire tac channel shall be provided.
 

KK4JUG

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That is true, but they carry the same legal weight as laws.

Congress makes laws. Agencies make regulations or standards. Regardless what the source is, if laws or standards or regulations are not followed, there is liability.

Even when you are not in an OSHA state, OSHA regulations will be the standard by which actions are judged with respect to occupational safety. If you are found to have violated an established standard, you are liable.

Breaking laws is worse than violating standards or regulations, but either will make you guilty in a court case. Again, regulations and standards carry the same weight as laws.

When did the government give a private association the right to write laws? Quick answer: They didn't.

They are NOT laws and don't have the power or effect of laws. When was the last time someone was tried in a criminal court for violation of NFPA standards? I'm not talking about civil court where someone says a fire department should have followed the recommended procedures using the "best practice" theory.
 

Voyager

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When did the government give a private association the right to write laws? Quick answer: They didn't.

They are NOT laws and don't have the power or effect of laws. When was the last time someone was tried in a criminal court for violation of NFPA standards? I'm not talking about civil court where someone says a fire department should have followed the recommended procedures using the "best practice" theory.

I said several posts ago only Congress can write laws. Agencies write standards or regulations which carry the same weight as laws in a court case.

Last time NFPA regs were used in a case? Not sure, but they are used very often to prove negligence.
 

crazyboy

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9.3.1.5 contains neither of those phrases.

9.3.1.4* At a minimum, the tactical communications channel
identified in 9.3.1.3 shall be capable of operating in analog
simplex mode.

Same challenge: Please cite one system that uses analog simplex talkgroups.



You’re proving my point and you don’t even realize it! At this point we’re just beating a dead horse though, we both agree that using off system simplex frequencies is the way to go. We will just have to disagree at the interpretation if the standards.
 

Voyager

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9.3.1.3 doesn’t specify anything about talkgroups. It simply says an alternate fire tac channel shall be provided.

The original point in this thread is about using TGs. (is using TGs dangerous?)

The combination of 9.3.1.3 and 9.3.1.4 seem to create conditions which do not allow use of TGs since no systems exist AFAIK that use TGs on analog, simplex, channels.
 

crazyboy

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I said several posts ago only Congress can write laws. Agencies write standards or regulations which carry the same weight as laws in a court case.

Last time NFPA regs were used in a case? Not sure, but they are used very often to prove negligence.



Agree, NFPA WILL come up in a civil suit if something happens!
 

belvdr

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The original point in this thread is about using TGs. (is using TGs dangerous?)

The combination of 9.3.1.3 and 9.3.1.4 seem to create conditions which do not allow use of TGs since no systems exist AFAIK that use TGs on analog, simplex, channels.

It doesn’t state that TGs should not be used. It says an alternate channel should be provided and, at a minimum, be analog simplex. 9.3.1.5 clarifies that to state that TGs are permitted.

Don’t read into it; take it at face value.
 
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