Jackson County Looking at a P25 Upgrade

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1268

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From the regular BOC Meeting " Consider Hiring Consultant for the Analysis and Assessment of County Communications System: (Kevin Poe) To consider hiring a consultant to help analyze the need for an upgraded or updated county-wide radio system and to review the proposal submitted by Motorola to provide a complete P 25 700/800 MHz Trunked Communications System. "

Jackson BOC Meeting Agenda

Turbo system works great however Moto says it's "outdated???? It was the cats meow when they solid to us ?
 

N8IAA

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From the regular BOC Meeting " Consider Hiring Consultant for the Analysis and Assessment of County Communications System: (Kevin Poe) To consider hiring a consultant to help analyze the need for an upgraded or updated county-wide radio system and to review the proposal submitted by Motorola to provide a complete P 25 700/800 MHz Trunked Communications System. "

Jackson BOC Meeting Agenda

Turbo system works great however Moto says it's "outdated???? It was the cats meow when they solid to us ?

Sounds like Moto wants some more money. Jaxco DMR works great. Don't understand why they would want to move.
 

1268

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Sounds like Moto wants some more money. Jaxco DMR works great. Don't understand why they would want to move.
The reason given is it's outdated and needs replacing :rolleyes:
 
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MTS2000des

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DMR was never intended to be a replacement for a proper P-25 network. It was a stop gap and agencies using legacy wideband analog had to meet a mandate to narrowband or be non-compliant. They bought what they could afford and deploy QUICK. It's done well for the intended purpose.

Those that have bought DMR systems are now looking at either joining one of the regional P25 systems or procuring their own. Look at it this way, narrowbanding came 6 years ago, most of that hardware and subscribers at 6-7 years old, so they'd be replacing them anyway as 1st GEN TRBO is no longer supported.
 

12dbsinad

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The reason given is it's outdated and needs replacing :rolleyes:
1) Their biggest mistake was dealing with Motorola to begin with.
2) Their second biggest mistake is CONTINUING to deal with Motorola. Motorola owns stock in Vaseline.

If I was a taxpayer in that area I would be BS.
 

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1st Gen Trbo, as in, equipment that is older, may not be supported, as far as warranty and repairs go, but 1st gen DMR Mototrbo systems are still supported. I know many agencies that use a mix of old and newest DMR radios on their DMR (Mototrbo) systems, and they are working great. Mototrbo is good stuff, and makes perfect sense for a non-metro county to go to, since it would be a ridiculous excessive cost expense, and the terrain wouldn't make any sense to put in 7-800 MHZ systems in (Flat land for many miles around)
 

1268

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Jackson has hired an outside consultant to assess the radio system.... feasible options etc. Expect a rebid open to all vendors is what I understand.
 

1268

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And the report is in.....

Jackson County is considering ways to modernize its public safety communications system, but the price tag won't be cheap.
A communications consulting firm hired by the Jackson County Board of Commissioners that has studied the county's emergency radio needs estimates the cost of upgrading to a modern radio communications system will cost between $13-$21 million, depending on the exact configuration.
The county's radio communications network includes all public safety agencies and some other non-emergency agencies, such as public schools.

The consulting firm gave a brief presentation of its findings to the BOC at its Nov. 18 meeting. No action was taken by the board.

FINDINGS: The findings outlined in a 120-page needs assessment report from TUSA Consulting Services were largely critical of the county's existing public safety communications system.
"The DMR system used in Jackson County lacks many features that modern radio system have," the report said.
Among the specific problems found were:
• The county's current system is reaching the end of its life cycle and will soon need to be replaced. The current system is also outdated compared to other systems now available.
• The current system has inadequate radio coverage in some areas of the county, including some spots along I-85 and around the fast-growing Braselton area. That is especially true with the county's portable radios, the report said.
• The current system is unable to easily talk with surrounding counties or state emergency agencies because it isn't compatible with other area communities. TUSA said that although Braselton covers four counties, "Communicating with neighbors is nearly non-existent." Gwinnett, Hall, Barrow and Athens-Clarke counties all have modern 800 Mhz P25 systems while Banks and Madison use proprietary systems, all incompatible with Jackson County's existing system.

• The current county radios were designed for commercial markets, not public safety agencies which need more durable and robust units.
• Many of the county's nine communications link sites are lacking. Most have obsolete cooling and backup power systems and many are too small to expand to house a modern system. Some of the sites had not been well-maintained by the county. "Almost all of the existing buildings, and the compounds they reside in, cannot support the space needed for a modern public safety radio system without substantial cost...." the report said.

PROPOSALS: TUSA outlined two possible options for the county in upgrading its system to an 800 Mhz P25 system. One would be a stand alone system where the county upgrades all its radios and connecting systems on its own. The cost of doing that would be $16.3 to $21.3 million upfront with an estimated total cost over 15 years of $24 million.
The second proposal would have the county upgrading and working with Hall County for some joint operating, especially the ability to use existing Hall County towers that would negate the need for Jackson County to upgrade several of its existing nine tower sites. The cost of that plan would be $13-$17 million initially with a 15-year life cycle cost estimated at $19.3 million.
BACKGROUND: TUSA was initially brought in by the county to review a proposal from Motorola for upgrading the county's radio system. But TUSA said that Motorola's proposal fell short of what Jackson County needs.
"There are many items within this proposal that TUSA find concerning and would drastically increase the costs Jackson County would be responsible for, in addition to the price of the proposal," said TUSA's report.
 

country2

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So what is the lifetime of a radio system? Looks like 8 years....Or was the first upgrade to Mototrbo back in 2011 wrong to begin with?
 

country2

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Well after about 8 years of not listen to them since I found out today they are not encrypted finally lstening to all my favorite counties...well except for Habersham..
 

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Well after about 8 years of not listen to them since I found out today they are not encrypted finally lstening to all my favorite counties...well except for Habersham..

Why not Habersham? I haven't tried them in quite a while, but at least as of last year (I think) I listened to them pretty regularly on their DMR Con+ trunked radio system. Like White County, all of Habersham County's DMR frequencies are Part 22, which means the FCC database isn't as informative as it is for agencies that use Part 90 frequencies (which is most of them). Thus, I figured out White County and Habersham County tower locations and DMR frequency and talkgroup usage the old fashioned way - lots of scanning and searching - and then I updated the RR DB entries for those two counties. I know White County has vacillated to varying degrees of encryption the last couple of years, but if Habersham has more recently switched to encryption, I wasn't aware (though not entirely surprised - Joey Terrell isn't exactly a model of government transparency).
 

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9 repeater sites around the county. and they have inadequate coverage? That's absurd. Are they using 30 watt bases and crappy antennas 50' high?

I know Mototrbo systems with a single central tower, 200' in the air, and coverage is awesome.

And while Mototrbo may not have been designed for public safety, it sure has and continues to do quite well in public safety uses.

One size does not fit all.
 

12dbsinad

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And while Mototrbo may not have been designed for public safety, it sure has and continues to do quite well in public safety uses.

One size does not fit all.
Motorola can't sell 5-8K APX handhelds to a Mototrbo user. Less profit.

Around here many small agencies are buying APX-900's for nearly 2K a pop on P25 systems. You can buy the same XPR radio for about half (sometimes more). P25 is nothing but a government driven waste of money that fills the pockets of companies like Motorola. Everything about it is a rip off.
 

DanRollman

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Wondering why you dislike Joey Terrell? He's been a personal friend of mine for over 30 years.

I didn't say I dislike him. I don't know him. I only suggested I didn't think he was a model of government transparency, meaning I don't think that's a high priority for him. Unfortunately, I don't think that's a high priority for many leaders of law enforcement agencies. That is a professional, not personal, commentary.

I haven't exactly done a formal study, but it has for some time appeared to me that his agency faces a disproportionate amount of criticism for how they conduct themselves professionally relative to their size. Admittedly, this is just anecdotal. Of course, as anecdotes go, the toddler badly burned in a botched drug raid by Sheriff Terrell's SWAT team - "Bou Bou" Phonesavanh - and especially the Sheriff's response to that incident, left a lot to be desired in my view. His comments in that stomach-churning case (which made national news and put Sheriff Terrell in the sites of people who follow these things) and others like it lead me to think he would prefer to have less, not more, outside oversight of his agency. That seems like a fair conclusion given how quickly after that incident he claimed the GBI had cleared his agency of any wrongdoing (which wasn't true at all - the GBI hadn't even begun their investigation at that point). And who can forget all the discussion of roadside strip searches by that agency (Granted it was before he took over as Sheriff). I'm far from the only one who thinks he and the agency he leads has a certain professional reputation. All of that is why I said simply that I wouldn't be surprised if his agency employed more encryption.

Anyway, since you are a local, can you confirm whether or not Habersham has started using encryption?
 

country2

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Hey DanRollman... I plugged the Habersham frequencies in last night and still could hear them so so far no encryption. I do agree with your comments... I figure soon more and more will do encryption and cannot believe Banks Countys isn't seeing how they have the option too from what I have read.
 

1268

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9 repeater sites around the county. and they have inadequate coverage? That's absurd. Are they using 30 watt bases and crappy antennas 50' high?

I know Mototrbo systems with a single central tower, 200' in the air, and coverage is awesome.

And while Mototrbo may not have been designed for public safety, it sure has and continues to do quite well in public safety uses.

One size does not fit all.
Since they use 400mhz they have really good coverage. They want to build all new towers and hook into Hall counties 800mhs P25 phase 2 system. They think they have portable issues now??? HA ! This will be Barrow county part 2....oh wait the new EMA director came from :unsure:.......Barrow County! :p
 
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If they join us in Hall, say good bye to hearing them. Except fire pagers will remain on VHF most likely, as the P25 pagers are quite expensive. As soon as we are done fielding our Phase II system, we be flipping the switch to full encryption on fire and EMS. All law enforcement on our system is already encrypted (mostly, some interesting things pop up in surprising placed). Keeping Event 1-4 unencrypted because no one wants to share our encryption keys, and of course we have the interop 800 mhz repeaters. CID is currently unencrypted but will be if they make up their minds. Several other agencies like NEGMC hospital and Medical Transport, among others, also use our system and are fully encrypted. So nothing of interest will be heard unless you work with us or listen to the occasional Event 4 Lake Lanier boat accident or drowning. That's the only way we can communicate with Forsyth and Gwinnett anyway, who are also encrypted on the fire/EMS side. It's funny they mention hooking into our system, since they would have talked to me about that option and they haven't. I'm not too keen on letting Jackson on board, maybe Taggart is but he's an old Motorola guy, and a nice fellow - but I think we both agree we are not into the sharing game, sorry Jackson. Our school buses just went VHF DMR and we have many talkgroups that are actually unencrypted currently, but people aren't generally aware of them at all and wouldn't be unless we do some very serious interoperabilitiy. Once we get done fielding all the APX's though, those holes will be closed too and encrypted - sorry, it's what everyone here wants. I like transparency but am greatly outnumbered in that. I also like interoperability but honestly, every time we send an assignment to Gwinnett to work a structure fire or to interestate 85 to work a multi vehicle accident, the officer coordinates with the other county and sometimes is given a radio - but our guys seldom have reason to need a radio to talk to another county, even in out of county work and chases/emergencies. They prefer talking back to their own (our) dispatch anyway, and the guys that go interior on a house fire don't all carry radios anyway; the policy is a minimum of 1 radio per search or attack crew, and although we'd rather have everyone with a radio, we routinely work events (and most every jurisdiction does) where the radio doesn't even get out of the structure to a repeater on the TRS, and almost nobody every actually uses the simplex fireground frequencies we have - they don't want to use them, they don't care about them, the don't think about them. We just communicate using our good old voices instead. That makes me nervous at times if there is a poor fellow to get separated from his crew or falls into the basement, but we live in an imperfect world. Heck we run Med 2 and 11 into White County quite often when they run out of ambulances and there's no reason we need to talk on their VHF DMR system, they keep up with their times and assignments via our dispatch and the MDTs (when they actually happen to be working!).

Plus good old DNR and GSP have radios that communicate outstandingly with us on our system, in addition to their VHF P25 frequencies - so interop with them is seemless.

I find it sad and funny at the Jackson County findings. We work in Braselton frequently with Jackson fire/SO/Braselton PD, and the guys never seem to have problems getting out on their radio, especially with all the sites they have. I85 is, strangely, somewhat more dodgy for them in coverage but one time we did mutual aid with them on a multivehicle accident, they just used one of our radios to talk to our dispatch who then relayed a message back to their dispatch via phone. Shrug. Poor taxpayers though, pay for 18-20 years on a system they will be told is obsolete in less than 10 years.
 
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