Jammers

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CharlesWhitman

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Licensing and regulation (such as the regulations against jamming) does not stop anything, just as no regulation or law stops anything. It is peoples choice of adherence to those laws or regulations that stop or control things. Anyone can choose to ignore any law or regulation, the presence of the law does not prevent that. However, the law does tend to say "if you do this society will view it as wrong, and potentially punish you for it, assuming you are caught".

These are societies rules. Most rules are a history of what has been done wrong in the past, the rule did not exist, people caused problems related to the regulated activity, and so a rule/regulation was written to codify what is acceptable. In a perfect world there would be no need for rules or regulations, and people would act with intelligence, kindness, and courtesy towards all others...but this ain't fairy land. If you do not agree with them (rules / regulations) then you can attempt to change them, there are procedures in place to do so. The other alternative, assuming you do not agree with a regulation, is to ignore it and do what you want. However then you must be prepared to pay potential consequences.

In the case of jamming, agitators will agitate. You appear to think it is because of other peoples actions that jammers jam, you pretty obviously have not observed much along these lines. I have repeatedly seen jammers jam anyone attempting to talk, regardless of who it is or if they have ever been on that frequency before. The perceived anonymity of radio communications, like the perceived anonymity on the web, can sometimes bring out the worst in people. I have known many jammers to be in it for the shear want to raise a response. They don't have to know who or why, just as long as they get a result. Jammers tend not to jam because of other peoples actions, but rather because of their reactions, and the jammers desire to make that puppet dance, and trolls troll for pretty much the same reasons.

T!

To see the general attitude of hams that draws jammers just look at the replies I'm getting in this thread. Some are like yours with interesting well thought out points but others are basically people who accomplished nothing in life outside of ham radio feeling the need to post their resumes in response to me. Their need to show me how smart and successful they are in life outweighs making a point about the topic at hand
 
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Token

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Even with rules it sounds like CB. All you have to do is listen to this repeater:
K6MWT 147.4350 MHz Los Angeles Renegade Repeater Live Audio Feed

More and more, the hobby I grew up with is turning into nothing more than glorified CB and it has nothing to do with jammers.

I like it when people bring the 435 repeater up as an example of the decline of ham radio, it is a good example of perceived reality vs real reality.

The 435 machine has been a problem child for probably longer than most people on the air today have been licensed. Its troubles are well documented back to 1978 with the “Underground Radio” group and I know when I moved into southern California in 1982 the 435 was pretty much a free fire zone with great regularity. Such repeaters and actions have always existed, and in my opinion in about the same ratios as seen today. However in the past they were localized issues. Any repeater could have been as bad as the 435 on its worst day, and only people relatively local would have known about it. It might get mentioned in ham periodicals, but again except for the locals few had any idea of the magnitude of an issue that showed up in print. Today with users forums and streaming audio people who are not local to the machines also know.

T!
 
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CharlesWhitman

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I like it when people bring the 435 repeater up as an example of the decline of ham radio, it is a good example of perceived reality vs real reality.

The 435 machine has been a problem child for probably longer than most people on the air today have been licensed. Its troubles are well documented back to 1978 with the “Underground Radio” group and I know when I moved into southern California in 1982 the 435 was pretty much a free fire zone with great regularity. Such repeaters and actions have always existed, and in my opinion in about the same ratios as seen today. However in the past they were localized issues. Any repeater could have been as bad as the 435 on its worst day, and only people relatively local would have known about it. It might get mentioned in ham periodicals, but again except for the locals few had any idea of the magnitude of an issue that showed up in print. Today with users forums and streaming audio people who are not local to the machines also know.

T!

435 is also a good example of the FCC lax attitude towards ham. I believe Richard burton is one of the only people in history to go to prison for using ham radio with no license . Look at how flagrant he was about it and how long he openly did it before they acted .
 

n4yek

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it is a good example of perceived reality vs real reality.

Listening to repeaters I have come to this conclusion, a lot of people seem to think they are lawyers, politicians, and electrical engineers.
What ever it is in the discussion, they all are experts on how to design and build it, their opinion on if it's right or wrong, and whether it's legal or not. :)
 
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Token

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435 is also a good example of the FCC lax attitude towards ham. I believe Richard burton is one of the only people in history to go to prison for using ham radio with no license . Look at how flagrant he was about it and how long he openly did it before they acted .

The FCC has limited resources and personnel and spends its time enforcing money making radio activities (broadcast radio and TV for example), and ham radio is not one of those. Also, ham radio is “self-policing” so a situation has to get pretty bad before the FCC starts to get involved.

Most jammers and unlicensed operations, even when caught, do not result in jail time, but far more of them result in a monetary forfeiture or notices of unlicensed operation. If the station corrects its actions, ceases to operate illegally, most of them never face a fine or potential jail time. Most illegal operators stop, or change their habits, after the first “official” contact, so very few even face a fine. Fines are generally for the more hardcore of the violators, the ones who continue to believe the rules do not apply to them. And jail is for (as it should be) extraordinary violators, so the examples are, by definition, few.

Richard Burton’s case is not the only one of a ham (or ex-ham in this case) going to jail for radio related issues, but it is one of the more well-known ones.

WB6JAC’s (Richard Burton) jail time (both times he went to jail for radio offences) may have been for “unlicensed operation”, but that was just the charge they got him on. What caused them to be interested in the first place was his general activity, including his jamming. It should also be noted that he WAS licensed when all the issues started in the 70’s, and then the FCC revoked his license in 1981. He continued his disruptive behavior after the loss of his ticket. KG6IRO’s case is also an example of a jammer who ended up charged with and in jail for (among other things) unlicensed operation.

You are citing this case as if to say it does not matter if anyone does anything wrong or not. I see it as the fact the FCC does not want to send anyone to jail for using the radio incorrectly, and will generally give them every opportunity to change their ways before taking such a harsh stand. Would you want them to threaten jail time for the first time an operator forgot to ID in 10 minutes or got caught jamming? Of course not.

T!
 
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zz0468

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435 is also a good example of the FCC lax attitude towards ham...

Yes, but probably not the way you're thinking.

First, Token's comments are spot on. I'm just going to add one comment.

The FCC has, and continues to enforce the rules on the .435 crowd. What a lot of hams don't realize is, a lot of what goes on there and gets complained about here isn't actually against the rules. Nowhere in the rules does it state that conversations must be squeeky sparkly clean. Not only that, but it serves as a place for those folks to let loose where its less likely to bother innocent ears. They're very much aware of what goes on there.
 
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CharlesWhitman

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The FCC has limited resources and personnel and spends its time enforcing money making radio activities (broadcast radio and TV for example), and ham radio is not one of those. Also, ham radio is “self-policing” so a situation has to get pretty bad before the FCC starts to get involved.

Most jammers and unlicensed operations, even when caught, do not result in jail time, but far more of them result in a monetary forfeiture or notices of unlicensed operation. If the station corrects its actions, ceases to operate illegally, most of them never face a fine or potential jail time. Most illegal operators stop, or change their habits, after the first “official” contact, so very few even face a fine. Fines are generally for the more hardcore of the violators, the ones who continue to believe the rules do not apply to them. And jail is for (as it should be) extraordinary violators, so the examples are, by definition, few.

Richard Burton’s case is not the only one of a ham (or ex-ham in this case) going to jail for radio related issues, but it is one of the more well-known ones.

WB6JAC’s (Richard Burton) jail time (both times he went to jail for radio offences) may have been for “unlicensed operation”, but that was just the charge they got him on. What caused them to be interested in the first place was his general activity, including his jamming. It should also be noted that he WAS licensed when all the issues started in the 70’s, and then the FCC revoked his license in 1981. He continued his disruptive behavior after the loss of his ticket. KG6IRO’s case is also an example of a jammer who ended up charged with and in jail for (among other things) unlicensed operation.

You are citing this case as if to say it does not matter if anyone does anything wrong or not. I see it as the fact the FCC does not want to send anyone to jail for using the radio incorrectly, and will generally give them every opportunity to change their ways before taking such a harsh stand. Would you want them to threaten jail time for the first time an operator forgot to ID in 10 minutes or got caught jamming? Of course not.

T!

Ok but of burton had just continued talking illegally without jamming or cursing and agitating would the FCC have taken any action?
 
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CharlesWhitman

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Yes, but probably not the way you're thinking.

First, Token's comments are spot on. I'm just going to add one comment.

The FCC has, and continues to enforce the rules on the .435 crowd. What a lot of hams don't realize is, a lot of what goes on there and gets complained about here isn't actually against the rules. Nowhere in the rules does it state that conversations must be squeeky sparkly clean. Not only that, but it serves as a place for those folks to let loose where its less likely to bother innocent ears. They're very much aware of what goes on there.

Who's complaining? I love listening to those guys. Ted is my favorite by far. I love the way he trashed Hollingsworth and took on the FCC and won.
 

SCPD

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The 435

Sorry to tug this thread even more off topic.
I'm curious about this famous machine. What is it on, the top of a building?
Is it on a shared site somewhere, such as a mountaintop?
 

zz0468

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Sorry to tug this thread even more off topic.
I'm curious about this famous machine. What is it on, the top of a building?
Is it on a shared site somewhere, such as a mountaintop?

It's in the Los Angeles area, and moves around to various mountain tops, depending on who owns it. It's roots go back about 50 years.
 
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CharlesWhitman

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Sorry to tug this thread even more off topic.
I'm curious about this famous machine. What is it on, the top of a building?
Is it on a shared site somewhere, such as a mountaintop?

There is no shortage of info about it online. Also you can look up recordings on YouTube
 

prcguy

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I lived through both the WB6JAC and KG6IRO times and they are two different kinds of idiots. It was fun listening to Richard Burton and he was almost exclusively on the .435 repeater along with a number of others that had and continue to have mental problems and it was a lot of fun listening to them rant. I think in the end Burton went to jail for breaking some judges orders and not simply transmitting without a license, which had been revoked.

KG6IRO Jack Gerritsen on the other hand was simply a disturbed @ hole and I had a few run ins with him trying to take over a few local repeaters and broadcasting his twisted political rants. I believe he also jammed some emergency marine traffic and other high profile radio transmissions.
prcguy
 

MTS2000des

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Ok but of burton had just continued talking illegally without jamming or cursing and agitating would the FCC have taken any action?

Not sure about Burton, but KG6IRO was also convicted of state crimes for interfering with public safety communications of the California Highway Patrol.

Not only is jamming and unauthorized operation a Federal crime, but in many states, one can also be prosecuted under various state laws on the books. Many times when individuals cause interference on public safety or even part 90 LMR they actually get popped by local authorities before the FCC even gets involved. In cases where one puts unauthorized trunking subscriber radios on government radio networks, state computer crime statutes apply. In Michigan, a couple of guys were popped and went to prison for unauthorized programming on the statewide P25 network.

Pirating on an LMR in my state is considered theft of telecommunication service. It's a 5 to 20 year felony and yes, cases have been made and convictions gotten by D.A.'s offices. It's all depends on who the complainant is and how solid and hard they push their case.

One is also more likely to do time in a state correctional system than going to club Fed. Playing with police radio systems WILL get swift action from local authorities, who once they are done cooking the perp, they may or may not refer them to the FCC.

Like anything, all depends on how bad they want to make an example out of someone.
 
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CharlesWhitman

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I lived through both the WB6JAC and KG6IRO times and they are two different kinds of idiots. It was fun listening to Richard Burton and he was almost exclusively on the .435 repeater along with a number of others that had and continue to have mental problems and it was a lot of fun listening to them rant. I think in the end Burton went to jail for breaking some judges orders and not simply transmitting without a license, which had been revoked.

KG6IRO Jack Gerritsen on the other hand was simply a disturbed @ hole and I had a few run ins with him trying to take over a few local repeaters and broadcasting his twisted political rants. I believe he also jammed some emergency marine traffic and other high profile radio transmissions.
prcguy

I listened to some recordings of kg6iro. The guy didn't seem crazy to me at all. His rants about the Iraq war, the FCC limiting free speech and our govt in general where spot on. I admire this guys devotion to his beliefs . Though if he really was jamming the coast guard during a rescue effort that is messed up. This guy just can't be stopped. He thumbed his nose at the FCC for years. Had numerous convictions, fines and sentences but just kept coming back again and again. Is he still alive ?
 

zz0468

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Exercising your right to free speech is one thing. Forcing others to listen is quite another. Garritson was a serious problem to anyone trying to use a radio in Southern California. And yes, he jammed a Coast Guard rescue operation.

Freedom of speech includes freedom FROM speech. You have a right to speak your mind, and everyone else has a right to keep you from doing it on their radio systems if they dont want you there.

This is where the jammers lose contact with reality and replace it with selfishness and immaturity.
 
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DaveNF2G

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Laws only control the behavior of the law-abiding. Prisons are built for the rest.
 

AC2OY

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I don't get it. All I want to do is make contacts and meet new people. I have no intention to interrupt or jam somebody. It's just downright rude. As far as passing the exams,I studied very hard to pass all three and still learning about radio,how to operate,noise reduction...ect. If I make a QSO where the operator feels like chatting,I pick their brain as much as I can to become a better operator. At nearly 51 I'm still teachable.
 
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