Kinnelon System

[Salvatorejrc]

Does anyone actively monitor Kinnelon's DMR system? I am very close to one of their towers & free of obstructions, but I never can seem to receive. I'm using an SDS100 with the standard rubber duck.

 

[K2NEC]

Kinnelon run RAS and I've come to find out that the SDS100 doesn't like RAS for whatever reason

 

[Salvatorejrc]

Kinnelon run RAS and I've come to find out that the SDS100 doesn't like RAS for whatever reason

What is RAS?

 

[NParkNJ]

What is RAS?

good old(not really) RAS.

Restricted Access to System.

Proprietary to MotoTrbo. Basically it keeps out any radio that doesn’t have the “key” to access the repeater.
Meaning in plain English, no radio without the Key can transmit or even listen to the frequency or system.

There is also radio id range, for example every radio in the system has radio ids 1-200. If a radio has an id of anything out of that range, no good.

But I believe majority if not all systems use “repeater level RAS.”

I have Pequannock and Bloomingdale on my 996p2 and they sounds just fine.

@GTR8000 will be able to explain it better than me.

 

[Salvatorejrc]

good old(not really) RAS.

Restricted Access to System.

Proprietary to MotoTrbo. Basically it keeps out any radio that doesn’t have the “key” to access the repeater.
Meaning in plain English, no radio without the Key can transmit or even listen to the frequency or system.

There is also radio id range, for example every radio in the system has radio ids 1-200. If a radio has an id of anything out of that range, no good.

But I believe majority if not all systems use “repeater level RAS.”

I have Pequannock and Bloomingdale on my 996p2 and they sounds just fine.

@GTR8000 will be able to explain it better than me.

So basically encryption without the E

 

[NParkNJ]

So basically encryption without the E

no. Because I can hear them on my scanner...

For any actual radio, yes. No shot without the key.

any scanner, that has DMR capabilities and is somewhat decent should have no issue.

In my scanner I only put frequency and CC. Nothing else. Works pretty good.

 

[Salvatorejrc]

no. Because I can hear them on my scanner...

For any actual radio, yes. No shot without the key.

any scanner, that has DMR capabilities and is somewhat decent should have no issue.

In my scanner I only put frequency and CC. Nothing else. Works pretty good.

Interesting. So I have no clue what my contingency is

 

[NParkNJ]

Interesting. So I have no clue what my contingency is

I don’t monitor them. However what I did on Bloomingdale’s system was put in their strongest frequency, and I get them pretty much all over.

I’d be happy to pop in Kinnelon in my scanner and see what I get. I’d probably put in whatever sight is strongest to the North(I’m in Ringwood).
Antenna, squelch, proper programming, location. If all that checks out idk...

 

[GTR8000]

So basically encryption without the E

RAS only affects real MOTOTRBO radios. It prevents them from using a system without being authorized. Scanners and software have ways around RAS, so it's not much of an issue. Encryption, known as Basic or Enhanced Privacy on MOTOTRBO systems, is not the same as RAS. A system can have RAS with or without encryption, and can be encrypted without having RAS.

Apparently the SDS series has some shortcomings when it comes to RAS. You can try listening with DSD+ software.

 

[K2NEC]

good old(not really) RAS.

Restricted Access to System.

Proprietary to MotoTrbo. Basically it keeps out any radio that doesn’t have the “key” to access the repeater.
Meaning in plain English, no radio without the Key can transmit or even listen to the frequency or system.

There is also radio id range, for example every radio in the system has radio ids 1-200. If a radio has an id of anything out of that range, no good.

But I believe majority if not all systems use “repeater level RAS.”

I have Pequannock and Bloomingdale on my 996p2 and they sounds just fine.

@GTR8000 will be able to explain it better than me.

Easy there stallion, you are getting way ahead of yourself.

RAS is an option that DMR repeaters can implement to only allow Motorola radios to have access to the system. This also means that radios without the key won't be able to monitor the system. Since you don't have a radio this shouldn't be a problem. Theoretically... However I have a friend with an SDS100 and a Unication and neither of which seem to want to un-mute on Kinnelon for whatever reason.

RAS range ID is rarely used (I've never seen it used). And just because it's a DMR repeater, doesn't mean it will have RAS. RAS is a free option to incorporate onto DMR repeaters, most dealers sell the idea that "unauthorized users won't be able to access" which means departments give the dealer the green light to enable it on the repeater. Remember, correlation doesn't equal causation.

Not sure why GTR specifically would be a pro at explaining RAS (No offense GTR)

RAS isn't encryption. It just prevents DMR radios from being able to be used (or listen to) DMR systems. Most scanners ignore RAS and have no problem listening to these systems.

 

[GTR8000]

Just to be clear, RAS is a proprietary MOTOTRBO feature, not a generic DMR feature. It only works with MOTOTRBO repeaters/systems and MOTOTRBO (XPR) subscribers. It's akin to P25 Radio Authentication, where there is a security challenge before the subscriber can access the system.

 

[RocketNJ]

My SDS200 has no issue with RAS on several systems tested.

Kinnelon is not a straightforward conventional DMR repeater system. Since DMR does not support simulcast, Kinnelon implements multi site steering system. Each site is different frequencies and low ERP. You will hear the transmitters transmit periodically. The subscribers roam to the strongest site. Not all sites will transmit every conversation.

Depending on where you are located you may not hear the site you are trying to receive.

Their system has crappy out of town coverage.

 

[K2NEC]

Their system has crappy out of town coverage.

No, it does not.

Kinnelon is not a straightforward conventional DMR repeater system. Since DMR does not support simulcast, Kinnelon implements multi site steering system. Each site is different frequencies and low ERP. You will hear the transmitters transmit periodically. The subscribers roam to the strongest site. Not all sites will transmit every conversation.

If a unit transmits on a site, all of the sites will repeat the transmission as long as there is a network connection. Since the radios pick the sites, not the site itself, the site has no idea what radio is connected to it and can't determine what traffic to pass on it.

 

[RocketNJ]

I’ve monitored it with DSD Plus and the SDS. I have seen where the Denise Dr site did not TX when another site was. I was 5 feet from the equipment at Denise when I saw that.

and coverage east in Pompton Plains is very poor.

 

[K2NEC]

It must have been an issue with Denise Drive then because when working properly, all sites should be synced.

Yes, coverage in Pompton Plains is poor because all of Kinnelon sites are on the hill and Pequannock is in a valley. Your signal is being blocked by the hill to the Northwest. As someone that uses Kinnelon quite regularly, I can assure you their coverage is better than our own PD repeater.

 

[Salvatorejrc]

It must have been an issue with Denise Drive then because when working properly, all sites should be synced.

Yes, coverage in Pompton Plains is poor because all of Kinnelon sites are on the hill and Pequannock is in a valley. Your signal is being blocked by the hill to the Northwest. As someone that uses Kinnelon quite regularly, I can assure you their coverage is better than our own PD repeater.

Any tips on receiving from Towaco? Because I cannot hear them at all from here.

 

[K2NEC]

I have a friend that lives in Pine Brook that I can hear KPD on the Lincoln Road site. Give that a shot.

 

[RocketNJ]

I have a friend that lives in Pine Brook that I can hear KPD on the Lincoln Road site. Give that a shot.

Towaco and Pompton Plains coverage stinks because the antennas at Denise Drive are on the western face of the water tank, not at the top. This blocks coverage east.

 

[Salvatorejrc]

Towaco and Pompton Plains coverage stinks because the antennas at Denise Drive are on the western face of the water tank, not at the top. This blocks coverage east.

The black one?

 

[K2NEC]

Towaco and Pompton Plains coverage stinks because the antennas at Denise Drive are on the western face of the water tank, not at the top. This blocks coverage east.

You know this how?