LCD Main DISP on CLMRN

[Firebuff66]

NFPA 1221 (2013 edition) requires a tactical analog channel for on-scene communications. 9.3.1.3 A communications radio channel, separate from the radio dispatch channel, shall be provided for on-scene communications. 9.3.1.4 At a minimum, the tactical communications channel identified in 9.3.1.3 shall be capable of analog simplex mode.

 

[P25andstuff]

Wow, Definitely interesting, never knew that.

 

[nhfdcadet]

Just to back up NHFDCADET here, there is a standard (NFPA or OSHA, I don't remember which or if its both) that all fireground / tactical operations should analog simplex operations only, no digital modualtion, mobile or fixed repeaters / trunked systems and or combination should be used. There have been too many instances and close calls were the radio communications for a mayday failed and were not heard. There are plenty of NIOSH reports on this as well as the recommendations published. Digital modulation with either a repeated or trunked system are fine for normal communications (normal no fireground ops and admin).

NFPA 1802 is the standard on radios, at this time it is only a proposed standard. I don't disagree that fireground should be simplex, but digital has come a long way over the years and itsnt as bad as it once was

 

[Firebuff66]

1802 would be the capabilities and certification of the equipment itself. NFPA1061 and 1221 address how the radios are used/installed/programmed, CAD systems, BDA's and also qualifications of the dispatch center (infrastructure & staff) and radio techs. Both 1061 & 1221 are going to be combined into 1225 in the future

 

[nhfdcadet]

just to be clear, the state is not recommending that anybody use trunking talkgroups for interior firefighting operations, for obvious reasons

 

[izzyj4]

NFPA 1802 is the standard on radios, at this time it is only a proposed standard. I don't disagree that fireground should be simplex, but digital has come a long way over the years and itsnt as bad as it once was

Digital many have come a long way but your voice is still converted into a digital signal (aka coded "1's" and "0's") then re-converted back into an audible sound. If you don't have all those 1's and 0's being received then you will not get the transmission clearly or it may be broken up. With analog you still get the "fade" before you squelch out, you would still be able to hear somewhat of the user on the other end. You also have to factor in tactical / on-scene / fireground channel setups have a lot to contend with when transmitting low power, radio location on the user, radio height and distance between the radios, building construction materials, and good old mother nature can affect how the radio signal gets from point A to point B.

Now I'm not saying digital is bad by any means, it's great for high-power / large area communications. When it comes to tactical low-power, keep it analog, its been proven safer. Just my 2 cents.

 

[nhfdcadet]

Digital many have come a long way but your voice is still converted into a digital signal (aka coded "1's" and "0's") then re-converted back into an audible sound. If you don't have all those 1's and 0's being received then you will not get the transmission clearly or it may be broken up. With analog you still get the "fade" before you squelch out, you would still be able to hear somewhat of the user on the other end. You also have to factor in tactical / on-scene / fireground channel setups have a lot to contend with when transmitting low power, radio location on the user, radio height and distance between the radios, building construction materials, and good old mother nature can affect how the radio signal gets from point A to point B.

Now I'm not saying digital is bad by any means, it's great for high-power / large area communications. When it comes to tactical low-power, keep it analog, its been proven safer. Just my 2 cents.

I don't disagree, analog is definitely good for fireground. I'm just more concerned with whether or not it is simplex. all fireground should definitely be simplex

 

[ems170]

Not to create the whole digital vs analog FG debate, but while there is a "wall" that is hit when the BER becomes too high for error correction to calculate, that "wall" is generally well into the point where analog audio is no longer intelligible. So, if hearing unintelligible static is what someone's life is riding on, there are bigger problems. The truth is with the newer vocoders, improved error correction, and the big one proper audio settings; the "usable" audio actually lasts longer than analog before becoming difficult or impossible to understand. This of course is stated with support for simplex FG channels, infrastructure should not be relied on for FG audio. The use of DVRS, VRX, or other flavors is a great way to bridge FG audio into a system or extend its useful area.

 

[nhfdcadet]

Not to create the whole digital vs analog FG debate, but while there is a "wall" that is hit when the BER becomes too high for error correction to calculate, that "wall" is generally well into the point where analog audio is no longer intelligible. So, if hearing unintelligible static is what someone's life is riding on, there are bigger problems. The truth is with the newer vocoders, improved error correction, and the big one proper audio settings; the "usable" audio actually lasts longer than analog before becoming difficult or impossible to understand. This of course is stated with support for simplex FG channels, infrastructure should not be relied on for FG audio. The use of DVRS, VRX, or other flavors is a great way to bridge FG audio into a system or extend its useful area.

yeah i havent personally tried out the VRX yet but I like the idea of it, we will see where LCD goes with the state system over the next few years as more and more departments get grants.
hope you are well sir.

 

[Reconrider]

yeah i havent personally tried out the VRX yet but I like the idea of it, we will see where LCD goes with the state system over the next few years as more and more departments get grants.
hope you are well sir.

What does it cost to join the state trunk versus getting a system of there own? ( i know antennas/towers, frequencies, consoles) are added cost besides the radios.

 

[cg]

There is currently no charge to have active talkgroups on the system (no per radio/per capita charge). The costs beyond the individual subscriber units and dispatching equipment is if you choose to improve coverage in your town. For example, Bloomfield paid for 2 additional sites on the Troop H Cell.

 

[Reconrider]

There is currently no charge to have active talkgroups on the system (no per radio/per capita charge). The costs beyond the individual subscriber units and dispatching equipment is if you choose to improve coverage in your town. For example, Bloomfield paid for 2 additional sites on the Troop H Cell.

Do you know a rough estimate of that cost for the dispatching equipment? Towers I could see being expensive but I would doubt anyone would pay for extra sites without doing a test.

 

[ems170]

nhfdcadet,

I have been well, thank you for asking. The VRX is a nice little device and is probably well suited for what most users will need function-wise at a substantially lower cost than the DVRS. There are a few sacrifices with it, such as a little less power, a single RF board, and no tactical repeat function, but other than that has almost all of the functions of the DVRS at a little more than half the cost. Makes fireround to system integration much more attainable. I hope that you have been well also.

 

[ems170]

Reconrider,

Depending on what contract you are able to purchase off of, a console is typically between 80-110k per position. This would include workstations and backroom equipment. Other considerations that will affect the price are which core and the level of connectivity as well as the number of resources. There is really no one case that meets all needs. Each system is designed based on the end user's needs.

Building a site has too many variables to list here, such as engineering, site prep needs, environmental impact studies, zoning, legal, and the like. An existing site retrofit will run close to 1 million as a ballpark. Can be significantly less depending on engineering and structural analysis.

as CG said, there is no cost to use the system. Agencies only need to build out the system to achieve the overage requirements that they desire.

 

[Reconrider]

Reconrider,

Depending on what contract you are able to purchase off of, a console is typically between 80-110k per position. This would include workstations and backroom equipment. Other considerations that will affect the price are which core and the level of connectivity as well as the number of resources. There is really no one case that meets all needs. Each system is designed based on the end user's needs.

Building a site has too many variables to list here, such as engineering, site prep needs, environmental impact studies, zoning, legal, and the like. An existing site retrofit will run close to 1 million as a ballpark. Can be significantly less depending on engineering and structural analysis.

as CG said, there is no cost to use the system. Agencies only need to build out the system to achieve the overage requirements that they desire.

Thank you for the long explanation. One more thing, when they join the trunk, are they locked into a contact?(I’m assuming yes because why not)

 

[ems170]

There is an MOU between the state and the agency/town. It is non-binding as there are out clauses in place with required notice to each party, otherwise, the MOU will auto-renew multiple times as stated in the MOU.