Legality of RadioReference Live Audio Broadcasts and Archives

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zerg901

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Slash - check this out - Appeasement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the 15 minute delay - what next? Require everyone to stand on their head when listening? Making up public lists of feed providers? Black listing feed providers (FP)? Moving them to internment camps? Stamping a giant letter FP on their forehead?

Maybe the police that are up in arms about scanner feeds could take a look at pre school education, prenatal nutrition, effectiveness of primary school education, effectiveness of secondary school educations, availabillity of GED programs, availability of ESL programs, availability of substance abuse programs, availability of mental helath programs, the distribution of wealth in the USA, the percentage of people living in poverty, the prison industrial complex, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
 

svfd17

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Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.654 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/389)

Maybe someone should write a letter to all police agencies requesting that they lower their output level to 2 watts so we can't pick anything up on a scanner.
 

slash

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And the local police, as I said earlier in this thread, behave much the same way. They even enlist scanner users regularly for assistance by calling out to them on the general patrol frequency. Anything they have to say that is not meant for public consumption is done over either telephone or encrypted "side" channels (with varying forms of encryption - not (just) digital modulation).

It's great that your local departments have this kind of relationship with scanner listeners. Do they hold the same opinion for feed listeners? Regardless, your department's relationship with outsiders listening in is simply not the case everywhere outside of your frame of reference. Maybe RadioReference should set the record straight and contact each individual municipality and ask them what they think about their live audio platform and post the answers publicly.

It will be hard to convince me that there's any reason to vilify either RadioReference or the previous audio feed sites in this regard. As mentioned above, anyone can go to various consumer electronics stores and get scanners, including ones with all the known radio systems in North America pre-programmed. Prior to that particular concept, books like Police Call existed. RR is not "enabling the criminal element" any more than Radio Shack is.

Smart phones:

  • Dirt cheap with a contract with any major cell phone provider.
  • Most people don't buy one because they want to listen to police or other radio frequencies. They do it to play Angry Birds or use Facebook or Twitter.
  • Until they see a program for free or dirt cheap in the app store, suddenly they have a scanner.
  • This makes up the vast majority of all the tens of thousands of listeners on this site.
  • Can also be bought at Radio Shack (I know what you meant, just saying..)

Scanners:

  • Expensive ($200-$600 for a portable)
  • Can't be used to surf the internet, facebook, twitter, or angry birds or for any outbound communication.
  • Most require programming and a dedication to the hobby.
Which one do you think public safety has a bigger problem with?
 
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Jay911

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Which one do you think public safety has a bigger problem with?

Here, speaking as a public safety official? Neither.

If other public safety officials in other areas have problems with either of them, they need to assess how they're communicating, and more importantly, what they're communicating. If drug dealers are keeping ahead of the cops because they're able to hear when the cops are coming after them, one argument (yours and some others) is that the concept of a live audio feed - or more precisely, the fact that RR hosts the feed - is at fault. Another argument is: Why are the cops telegraphing their punches? Why isn't the drug unit operating on a channel that is either (a) encrypted or (2) in the kind of allocation that RR bans from feeds by policy?

I'm all for encryption where it's needed to protect sensitive information (meaning personal details and communications that, if overheard, would have a detrimental affect on the outcome of an operation designed to thwart a criminal act). General patrol does not fall into that category. Your average purse-snatcher or even gas-station robber (or domestic abuser, car prowler, car thief, etc) is highly unlikely to employ either a scanner or a live audio feed to make his crime happen. Criminal acts which involve the criminal using methods to prevent the police from detecting the operation are predominantly more organized and specialized, in my non-expert opinion/observation. Criminal activities which require a targeted/specialized response from law enforcement, and require radio communications to accomplish this response, should be either encrypted or otherwise engineered so that they are indecipherable to the target - and that means taking it offline or to another unmonitorable source, not leaving it in the clear (or even in a modulation that will "never ever be monitorable", but ends up being ultimately figured out) and then punishing those who listen. Cops don't all drive marked vehicles because they believe that unmarked vehicles give them an element of surprise when catching certain traffic infractions. If I spot a Caprice with no wheel covers and small stubby antennas on the trunk, with commercial/fleet license plates, it's not illegal for me to notice that. In many locales, it's not illegal for me to tell others that I've noticed that, and where I've noticed it. It shouldn't be illegal for RR to stream that which is inherently available in the air all around us, waiting for a radio to receive it.

I still maintain that while the technological advances might make it more accessible, there is still no more dire urgency and danger in having public safety comms accessible via the Internet, than there has been for the past ~50 years using scanners and other tunable and non-tunable receivers. If that goes against your or anyone else's opinion or viewpoint, so be it.
 
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slash

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Here, speaking as a public safety official? Neither.
If other public safety officials in other areas have problems with either of them, they need to assess how they're communicating, and more importantly, what they're communicating.

As an example for your first point, the local police had a stand-off with a mentally disturbed guy with a gun hiding in a wood pile behind someone's house in a neighborhood in my city this past fall. It's pretty uncommon around here. Because the call was in a different county, but still just outside city limits, it was dispatched to that county police first. However, the city was dispatched as well because it could easily spill over into their jurisdiction. The state police were also dispatched.

The city arrives first, they are on an analog repeater system.
The neighboring county arrives second (this stretches to the far north border of their jurisdiction so their arrival was delayed), they are on a EDACS Provoice system.
The state police arrives third, they are on the APCO 25 system.

Before they even have time to assess the situation, get everyone on the scene, establish a perimeter, get a plan of action and call out the special response team, all communications are going over the city's analog primary dispatch channel (where I was listening) and traffic was being relayed manually between three dispatch centers because nobody could directly talk to each other.

Thankfully it ended without incident, but my point here is sometimes they don't have the time or ability to coordinate on anything but the primary channels, even if they have the capability, it's of no fault to public safety per se. Just because they could and should doesn't mean it's always practical or that they have any inclination to keep things sensitive for the sake of keeping scanner listeners away when seconds count. Had the guy had a smart phone on him (more likely than a scanner), it could have ended much different, made negotiations much harder, and someone could have gotten seriously hurt.

If drug dealers are keeping ahead of the cops because they're able to hear when the cops are coming after them, one argument (yours and some others) is that the concept of a live audio feed - or more precisely, the fact that RR hosts the feed - is at fault. Another argument is: Why are the cops telegraphing their punches? Why isn't the drug unit operating on a channel that is either (a) encrypted or (2) in the kind of allocation that RR bans from feeds by policy?

I still maintain that while the technological advances might make it more accessible, there is still no more dire urgency and danger in having public safety comms accessible via the Internet, than there has been for the past ~50 years using scanners and other tunable and non-tunable receivers. If that goes against your or anyone else's opinion or viewpoint, so be it.

I can summarize my response by saying that this site does nothing more than make what was a relatively small and unknown problem 5 years ago a gargantuan problem today, especially considering there are now real listener numbers shown to the public that indicate how many people are listening in at any given time. Anyone in a position of power only needs to glance at their area's feed page and cringe with anxiety when more people are listening in than the number of officers on duty, and at any given moment could negatively affect the outcome of any serious situation to life. It's unfortunate, but true. With real numbers it does nothing but make public safety officials uneasy, making them feel more compelled to react, particularly in ways not favorable to the hobby. One thing RR.com could do today with very little effort is disable the listener counts and keep them private. I can't see why anyone would argue with that, but I think that cat is already out of the bag.

In addition, it creates an environment among public safety where anyone with a smart phone device becomes a person of automatic suspicion, or added suspicion to an initial reason. That isn't good for a smart phone owner. Unfortunately until something gives, this problem isn't going away.
 
D

DaveNF2G

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From "slash" on 12-21-2011

More importantly, there are no constitutional protections to own a scanner or computer device that can listen in on public safety communications in real time. The only thing you have the privilege to is a FOIA request after the fact, and even that is on shaky ground.

-----------------------------------

I think that in the USA that everything is legal unless it is specifically deemed to be illegal. (I dont know if that is common law based or constitutionally based - I aint a lawyer)

I missed that part of his screed.

Slash is again misinformed. Chapter 119 of the United States Code specifically authorizes realtime monitoring of government communications.
 
D

DaveNF2G

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Care to cite sources or share the research that backs up your "facts" about the users of this site?
 
D

DaveNF2G

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People who are as paranoid as Slash appears to be would not pass the psych evaluations to become involved in law enforcement.

I hope. :roll:
 

N0WEF

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Is it me or does this seem like a "Red Herring" put out there by people who will profit from it?? (With the sale of Enc. keys, proprietary systems, Etc.)

"Live Feeds" aren't live, BUT the news coverage that breaks into programming IS! Earlier this year a gunman holding a hostage was able to know the movements of SWAT because it was aired on TV and his friends notified him via phone calls and facebook

When do we move to ban cellphones? the news? How bout facebook?
 

K9JLR

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I've talked to police leaders who currently don't have encrypted channels who are now having second thoughts BECAUSE of this site providing easy access to listen to law enforcement communication to those who otherwise wouldn't, NOT because they have anything against traditional scanner listeners who typically haven't been a problem.

Some police are mad enough that in some areas of the country they are taking it out against anyone with a smart phone and a police scanner app, or the more paranoid ones who squash the entire (legal) hobby via wasting money on encryption. Just because it might not be happening in your own back yard doesn't mean it isn't happening somewhere else. Take what wten77 has repeatedly said in this thread very seriously. He's right on.

The same issue was being perpetuated prior to the advent of these audio streams. Saying traditional scanner users haven't been cited as part of the problem is certainly false, as a number of entities even went so far as to pass laws criminalizing the use of a bona fide scanner in the commission of a crime. If it wasn't a problem, then no need for a law would have been deemed necessary. Furthermore, if you talk to some in LE or even read some of the message boards like Officer.com, then you'll find that there has been an anti-scanner attitude by some in public safety that predates the arrival of the modern live audio feeds, even if that might not necessarily be the case with the few in LE that you are referencing as not having a particular issue with actual scanner owners.

I certainly see both sides of the argument here. I posted the other day (it was merged into this thread on the last 2 pages) about how I was recently contacted by someone in LE and asked, politely and in a non-threatening manner, to remove my feed because there have purportedly been several instances where people were found to have been evading local LE while using a smartphone application monitoring the live feed. In the aforesaid case, which involved yours truly as a feed provider, the mention of encryption was not part of the conversation.

However, the downside to this anti-live feed mentality is that, like gun control, albeit apples to oranges for the most part, it essentially punishes the masses of legitimate users who harbor no ill intent because a few malefactors choose to misuse a tool, smartphones with streaming apps in this case, for otherwise flagitious purposes.
 

digitalanalog

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-----> slash

I have a very simple question for you, Please answer YES or NO

Are you currently employed by any of the following agencies or departments or associated with any of these departments in anyway?

Please do not tell us at what level you are, if you are, just a simple yes or no.


Local Government?
State Government?
Federal Government?

My explanation after your simple Yes or No answers.
 

Bob_61

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-----> slash

I have a very simple question for you, Please answer YES or NO

Are you currently employed by any of the following agencies or departments or associated with any of these departments in anyway?

Please do not tell us at what level you are, if you are, just a simple yes or no.


Local Government?
State Government?
Federal Government?

My explanation after your simple Yes or No answers.

Good luck!
 

markbart

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Here, speaking as a public safety official? Neither.

If other public safety officials in other areas have problems with either of them, they need to assess how they're communicating, and more importantly, what they're communicating. If drug dealers are keeping ahead of the cops because they're able to hear when the cops are coming after them, one argument (yours and some others) is that the concept of a live audio feed - or more precisely, the fact that RR hosts the feed - is at fault. Another argument is: Why are the cops telegraphing their punches? Why isn't the drug unit operating on a channel that is either (a) encrypted or (2) in the kind of allocation that RR bans from feeds by policy?

I'm all for encryption where it's needed to protect sensitive information (meaning personal details and communications that, if overheard, would have a detrimental affect on the outcome of an operation designed to thwart a criminal act). General patrol does not fall into that category. Your average purse-snatcher or even gas-station robber (or domestic abuser, car prowler, car thief, etc) is highly unlikely to employ either a scanner or a live audio feed to make his crime happen. Criminal acts which involve the criminal using methods to prevent the police from detecting the operation are predominantly more organized and specialized, in my non-expert opinion/observation. Criminal activities which require a targeted/specialized response from law enforcement, and require radio communications to accomplish this response, should be either encrypted or otherwise engineered so that they are indecipherable to the target - and that means taking it offline or to another unmonitorable source, not leaving it in the clear (or even in a modulation that will "never ever be monitorable", but ends up being ultimately figured out) and then punishing those who listen. Cops don't all drive marked vehicles because they believe that unmarked vehicles give them an element of surprise when catching certain traffic infractions. If I spot a Caprice with no wheel covers and small stubby antennas on the trunk, with commercial/fleet license plates, it's not illegal for me to notice that. In many locales, it's not illegal for me to tell others that I've noticed that, and where I've noticed it. It shouldn't be illegal for RR to stream that which is inherently available in the air all around us, waiting for a radio to receive it.

I still maintain that while the technological advances might make it more accessible, there is still no more dire urgency and danger in having public safety comms accessible via the Internet, than there has been for the past ~50 years using scanners and other tunable and non-tunable receivers. If that goes against your or anyone else's opinion or viewpoint, so be it.
Well said Jay.

Mark
 

zerg901

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I suppose we can thank "slash" for the opportunity to pull our thoughts together on this topic
 

digitalanalog

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I certainly will not rely on any answer you give or anything you think you Might know, and thank you for answering the Simple questions with your simple Evasive answers.
Exactly what I figured you to say, which is Nothing.

There are enough Legal people making choices for us on a daily basis, we certainly don't need NON-Functioning Tin Hat's adding to the mix.

Thought you might like to change this to your avatar, No Need To Thank Me.....
 
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slash

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Best comment out of you yet pal. I figured as much. Troll.

I'm sorry, did you have a statement to make? I'm not playing your silly games. Make both arguments, based on whether I answered yes or no.
By the way, you're incredibly lazy to not even crop the image down to the proper dimensions for a forum avatar, so I'm going to have to pass on your gift.

You mad bro?
 
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slash

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Originally Posted by zerg901
From "slash" on 12-21-2011

More importantly, there are no constitutional protections to own a scanner or computer device that can listen in on public safety communications in real time. The only thing you have the privilege to is a FOIA request after the fact, and even that is on shaky ground.
I missed that part of his screed.

Slash is again misinformed. Chapter 119 of the United States Code specifically authorizes realtime monitoring of government communications.

:roll: Once again you're not reading, i said constitutional protection, US Code is NOT constitutional law

US CODE Chapter 119, Title 18 § 2511 states:

(g)(II) by any governmental, law enforcement, civil defense, private land mobile, or public safety communications system, including police and fire, readily accessible to the general public;


Which is completely irrelevant to the argument about police legally turning on encryption because of this site. The only information you are privileged to is FOIA requests after the fact, which is a privilege granted by law, not a constitutional right.
 
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