Los Angeles County area - ????

[SCPD]

If LAFD is the primary responder in Bell Canyon area, and they do extensive mutual aid in Kagel Canyon and the Chatsworth county island area, I suppose there is a chance that some LAFD companies have a batch of VHF portable radios (since Ventura County FD and Los Angeles County FD use VHF portables AFAIK). Or does LAFD use their 800 Mhz portables, and dedicate 1 person to maintain face to face coordination with the County IC?

San Fernando Valley Fire Stations - Google Maps - this map shows the areas involved - LA County Sta 74 and 75 - first stations on the list

Nice map zerg! Now you need to expand it to cover the Angeles National Forest and the southern portion of L.A. County. You would want to include some of the adjacent stations of Orange, Ventura and San Bernardino Counties as well, as those stations often roll, via automatic aid dispatching, to calls in L.A. County. While you are at it you should put the stations of the other 87 cities in L.A. County as well. Many of those contract with L.A. County for fire protection so just doing the county would eliminate the scope of the workload.

Another interesting situation involving L.A. County is the municipality in Orange County that contracts with L.A. County Fire for fire protection. It is right on the border with L.A. County and is isolated from the areas the Orange County Fire Authority protects by adjacent cities that provide their own.

I can't think of any fire departments that have the complexity that the L.A. City and L.A. County fire departments have. High rise buildings (L.A. County not so much), a major world airport (LAX), oil refineries, manufacturing, a major world seaport and the most difficult wildland-urban fire workload in the country. Other cities, such as New York, have a greater complexity of high rise structures, but don't have the wildland component that these two departments have and I don't think New York has the oil refinery workload that L.A. County has. They may not have as much chemical manufacturing as L.A. does either. Some of these components exist in the same battalions in L.A. and certainly in the same divisions. A battalion chief may have to respond to more than one of these components in a single shift. This requires a broad knowledge and skill set that is hard for me to imagine.

L.A. County also is contracted by CDF to provide prevention and suppression for the SRA there. I've never heard of CDF having to take over the management of any fires in L.A. County as the fire department has lots of dozers, inmate fire crews and helicopters. They also have good management teams as well. Many of the county and SRA fires move up into the Angeles National Forest where the feds send in incident management teams, but many are large enough to consider major incidents where CDF only sends tankers, engine strike teams and inmate crews in a mutual aid mode.

Looking at this map and those L.A. County Fire Department stations along U.S. 101 reminds me of the largest of the incredible fire season of 1970 in California. This fire started on the south side of 101 and the ignition was viewed by firefighters in either 65's or 125's. Some people in a car threw out some burning debris. The station self dispatched and by the time they drove to the nearest freeway crossing and back to the point of origin the fire was already too big for initial attack. It burned down to the Pacific and then back into the Santa Susana Mountains, north toward Pyramid Lake and then eastward on the Angeles National Forest where it jumped over the 8 or more lane Interstate 5. This after making many unsuccessful attempts at stopping the fire at other major defensive points. I had a supervisor who was working at Oak Flat Station on the Angeles adjacent to I-5 at the time. I asked what they did when it crossed the I-5 and they said they just sort of followed the fire and got everyone out of the way because they knew they couldn't do much of anything else.

 

[zerg901]

ExSmokey - dont forget that NYC has snow, blizzards, hurricanes, and tornados. And FDNY seems to have two or three multi alarm brush (?leaf?) fires every year. (The petrochemical plants are near Rahway NJ IIRC - on the other side of the harbor from NYC).

If anyone wants to tackle a couple more questions -

1. I can probably figure this one out by listening to the LAFD feed for a while - How exactly does LAFD use Ch 4 and Ch 10? Did I hear a dispatcher tell a Light Force to go to Channel 4 for a EMS call? That would indicate that fire units switch to Ch 4 when responding to EMS calls south of Mulholland I guess.

2. For Kagel Canyon, would a house fire call get 1 Los Angeles County Engine plus 2 LA City Engines plus 1 LA City Truck? Would a house fire in the Chatsworth County island get the same response - 1 county engine plus several LA City units? I imagine that a Kagel Canyon brush fire would get 5 County Engines plus 5 City Engines plus 5 National Forest Engines. A Chatsworth area brush fire might get 5 County Engines plus 5 City Engines plus 5 Ventura County Engines. North of Chatsworth seems to be a large new gated community with large homes. I dont see any fire stations around there at all. ???????

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Some of these questions have been on my mind for a long time. The grandmother of one of my high school friends gave me a San Fernando Valley street map back around 1976. The fire stations were shown on the map, and it was easy to see that there were some unique situations.

 

[Code20Photog]

exactly does LAFD use Ch 4 and Ch 10? Did I hear a dispatcher tell a Light Force to go to Channel 4 for a EMS call? That would indicate that fire units switch to Ch 4 when responding to EMS calls south of Mulholland I guess.

Ch4 is just for dispatching the RAs in the metro division. If it's a stand-alone call for a RA, they hardly ever use the radio anyways, and if they're responding as part of a bigger assignment, they will be on the metro and tac freqs.

Ch10 is basically a talkaround channel for EMS calls. When an unit is on scene, and needs to relay information to an incoming ALS unit, they use Ch10. For instance, say Engine 88 is on scene of a chest pain, and RA39 is responding. Engine 88 may ask RA39 to go to CH10 to give them an update on the patient's condition, or specific instructions on how to access the scene.

2. For Kagel Canyon, would a house fire call get 1 Los Angeles County Engine plus 2 LA City Engines plus 1 LA City Truck? Would a house fire in the Chatsworth County island get the same response - 1 county engine plus several LA City units? {/quote]

I don't have the exact dispatch matrixes, but it would follow the standard first alarm assignment for LACoFD. The only difference being, if I remember correctly, is that there is a second truck company is added which comes from the county. In the case of FS74 in Kagel Canyon, they will get Q82 out of La Canada, and in Chatsworth, Q125 out of Calabassas or Q126 out of Valencia.

I imagine that a Kagel Canyon brush fire would get 5 County Engines plus 5 City Engines plus 5 National Forest Engines. A Chatsworth area brush fire might get 5 County Engines plus 5 City Engines plus 5 Ventura County Engines.

Brushfires are different. If it is in a mutual aid area like this, you will get a full brush response from *each* agency. LACoFD, LAFD, USFS, VCFD will send the full contingent of units they normally send on a brush assignment regardless of what the other agency is sending. You'll see this a lot on the 118 freeway between Topanga and Kuehner Dr in Simi Valley, and along the 5 freeway through the Newhall Pass.

North of Chatsworth seems to be a large new gated community with large homes. I dont see any fire stations around there at all. ???????

If you're talking about the new development north of the 118 at Topanga, LAFD FS96 is 2 1/2 miles away, and the other large developments in Porter Ranch, FS28 is at the corner of Porter Ranch and Corbin.

 

[SCPD]

zerg, thanks for the information regarding New York City. I had forgotten that weather factors between the two locations are quite different. The comparison is a bit of an apples and oranges situation. The wildland fire urban interface factor is clearly different in L.A. County as fires that destroy residences and commercial buildings in the hundreds are not uncommon. That factor, when combined with all the others, gives me the opinion the workload for fire departments in southern California is very complex. However, the multi story building firefighting combined with weather, traffic and somewhat narrow streets (as compared to the size of the buildings) must be something to observe. The NYFD also experienced a huge loss of personnel and command knowledge as a result of 9-11.

Do not assume that the Forest Service sends engines in a strike team fashion, that is, in groups of 5. Each National Forest has been developing and modifying an automatic dispatch system for decades. The advent of computer use and CAD has refined automatic dispatch to a level not seen before. Responses are based on fire danger, dry fuel moisture, fuel type, access, structure exposure, terrain and probably more that I've forgotten. A particular location may see several configurations of response in a given year. Fire departments/agencies coordinate their responses in their CADs. Initial attack responses are normally made with a single engine configuration commanded by a battalion chief. When a fire grows past initial attack out of area engines, crews and dozers are formed into strike teams.

When I lived in New Mexico and Arizona in the 70's and 1980-1981 agencies did not coordinate their responses. I remember an area where a private land grant protected by New Mexico State Forestry, the Cibola National Forest and a Indian Reservation converged. One day when I was home recovering from some minor surgery a fire started right on the boundary of the three agencies. I was listening to all three agencies and each sent a full response. Three helos, three sets of engines, three hand crews and three battalion chiefs. This situation was wasteful and fraught with safety problems.

In southern California the coordination of automatic responses for mutual aid for wildland fire was a common practice before the rest of the country due the terrain and intense development in the wildland-urban interface of southern California. Agencies have worked together to determine mutual aid areas and what response configuration is needed in a given area, they are not random and agencies do not self dispatch. On the Cleveland National Forest move ups are well coordinated with Cal Fire engines moving up (elevation wise) to uncovered USFS stations and USFS engines moving down to uncovered Cal Fire stations. Statewide Cal Fire and the USFS have coordinated a great deal to provide the most efficient method of providing wildland fire protection for private lands. The so called "Green Book" covers SRA lands isolated from Cal Fire stations and within National Forest boundaries. In these cases Cal Fire pays the Forest Service for this protection.

The attached map may help. It shows the response areas for the Angeles National Forest. It lacks at lot as far as detail and may not be current. Notice the large black lines representing the response areas and the thin line showing the National Forest boundary. In particular look at areas 7,8 and 14. Those incorporate a lot of non National Forest land on each side of State Highway 14, the main artery to the northern portion of L.A. County. One USFS fire station was created in area 8 to improve response time on National Forest land and to be available for mutual aid response in areas 7 and 8. Areas 1 and 4 incorporate Interstate 5, a good portion of which is outside the National Forest boundary. Areas 20, 21 and 22 are also good examples of the complexity of wildland fire response in southern California. These areas involves more than L.A. City and L.A. County, but numerous small cities such as Glendale, Pasadena, Burbank, La Canada-Flintridge and more to the east. As a bonus the map shows the locations of the repeaters on the Angeles NF.

View attachment 38671

Finally, I'm attaching a recording of the initial attack of a fire in the foothills in the San Bernardino area that moves from the City of Highland, onto SRA protected by Cal Fire and then onto the San Bernardino National Forest. Note that automatic dispatch is employed by Cal Fire and San Bernardino in a coordinated fashion. The recording includes traffic illustrating the complexity of fire responses in southern California, although it is a simple one involving just three jurisdictions. The initial attack of some fires on the eastern portion of the Angeles National Forest usually involves more than three. The recording also highlights the benefits of VHF interoperability for wildland fire fighting.

Sorry, the file is not uploading and I need to be somewhere else right now. I will try to attach it in an upcoming post.

 

[SCPD]

Here is the recording. When listening be advised that there are two "San Bernardino"s, referring to the Federal Interagency Communications Center located in the San Bernardino National Forest, Forest Supervisor's Office and Cal Fire's San Bernardino Emergency Communication Center. Note that Cal Fire San Bernardino is dispatching both San Bernardino and Riverside Unit resources.

I can't get the recording to load as an attachment. Here is the web address of the archived recording. Select "Emerald Fire Scanner Audio," the third choice from the top.

Live Big Bear Scanner

 

[Mikerh91]

Ch4 is just for dispatching the RAs in the metro division. If it's a stand-alone call for a RA, they hardly ever use the radio anyways, and if they're responding as part of a bigger assignment, they will be on the metro and tac freqs.

2. For Kagel Canyon, would a house fire call get 1 Los Angeles County Engine plus 2 LA City Engines plus 1 LA City Truck? Would a house fire in the Chatsworth County island get the same response - 1 county engine plus several LA City units? {/quote]

I want to clarify the LAFD Ch 4 comment.
LAFD Ch 4 is used for any medical incidents in the metro area. All rescues (EMT or Paramedic) in the metro area monitor this channel. Normally all fire resources in the metro area monitor channel 7. If a fire resource in the metro area is dispatched to a medical incident, the dispatcher will tell the fire resource to switch to channel 4 for the remainder of the incident. If an ambulance is responding to a fire type call, then the dispatcher on channel 4 will tell the ambulance to switch to channel 7.

LAFD will only send 1 engine into Kagel Canyon as part of the automatic aid agreement. If LA County needs more companies they will then call metro dispatch.

 

[zerg901]

Looking at the Los Angeles County page in the Radio Reference Database, there are approx 13 police departments that still use VHF highband; there is Avalon FD on 46 Mhz; Long Beach FD is on VHF; and LA County FD uses VHF portables extensively. So if the question is - "How much of an effort is required to move all agencies to UHF?" - the answer is - "not too too much". Except for USFS and FBI and CHP - but they are small players in comparison to LA City Fire (800) and LA County Fire.

Something tells me that there are plenty of freqs available since 476 to 480 has been licensed by LA County.

Just to tally the tally -

"What agencies have to move in order to situate everyone in Los Angeles County on UHF?"

LA City FD - now on 800 Mhz - approx 100 stations with fire and EMS units

LA County FD portables - now on VHF - approx 100 stations

Long Beach FD - VHF - approx 20 stations

Avalon FD - 46 Mhz

Azusa PD - VHF

Bell PD - VHF

Burbank PD - air to ground on 156.21 - ?who do they talk to on 156.21?

Covina PD - VHF

Downey PD - VHF

Glendora PD - VHF

Huntington Park PD - VHF

Maywood PD - VHF

Monrovia PD - VHF

Monterey Park PD - VHF

Sierra Madre PD - VHF

Signal Hill PD - VHF or 800

South Gate PD - VHF

Vernon PD - VHF

Vernon FD - VHF - ??

CHP - maybe only 20 people on duty countywide

USFS - approx 15 fire stations - not millions of radiois

FBI - unknown how many peoples

Private Ambulances - multi

Private security companies - billions and billions? (maybe many are on UHF already)

 

[LAflyer]

UHF T-Band will be dead in LA Basin come 10-years if the Congressional frequency give back mandate stands.

Probably a more appropriate question is how to migrate people off UHF-T to 700/800Mhz, and maybe even some back VHF.

 

[SCPD]

zerg, the federal agencies are not going to switch to a county wide system. VHF is the band for wildland firefighting and there is no indication that it is going to change. Most patrol and command vehicles on the Angeles NF have L.A. County Fire UHF radios in them already. I'm not sure if their engines do but it would not surprise me. What surprises me is they all monitor LAC's Channel 8, which if you have ever listened to it, is quite annoying. I believe it is also simulcast and not all that well either, resulting in other annoying sounds. On my last visit to the Angeles NF dispatch center several years ago they were monitoring LAC's Channel 8 as well, but also had some sort of a computer that printed out dispatches on a narrow strip of paper similar to a cash register.

VHF is also the band of federal natural resource agencies be it the USFS, BLM, NPS, USFWS and the BIA (Bureau of Forestry portion). Most sovereign Indian Nations use VHF for their natural resource management as well. Most state natural resource management agencies in the west also use VHF. UHF does not work well in steep mountainous area as it reflects well but doesn't bend with the terrain as well. All of the federal natural resource agencies use UHF (406-420 MHz) for links and for the most part not for any other purpose. The NPS and USFWS have some exceptions to that at some small units in the east. Other federal agencies in L.A. County use the federal UHF band quite a bit.

Your estimate of the number of CHP officers is well off target. There are 9 area offices in L.A. County and each, as far as the day and evening shifts usually each have at least 5 units in the field minimum. That is based on my travels on the freeways down there with my scanner on a bank dedicated to the CHP only. I've often heard the Central L.A. office fielding ten or more. That includes motor units, but does not include special units working on auto theft, DUI target location enforcement and other location focused traffic enforcement. Others in the southern California area know much more than I do, so this estimate may be off, but I would guess would be low rather than high. My days of traveling to my hometown near the L.A. Airport came to a close last fall, so my knowledge of that area is waning.

For the L.A. City Fire Department think of Channel 4 as the Channel 7 of EMS in the metro area. Think of Channel 10 as the Division Ops Channel (Channels 1-3) for EMS. EMS has the rough equivalent of battalion chiefs stationed about the city.

You can scratch Maywood off the list. Police and fire protection are contracted out to L.A. County.

 

[Mikerh91]

Looking at the Los Angeles County page in the Radio Reference Database, there are approx 13 police departments that still use VHF highband; there is Avalon FD on 46 Mhz; Long Beach FD is on VHF; and LA County FD uses VHF portables extensively. So if the question is - "How much of an effort is required to move all agencies to UHF?" - the answer is - "not too too much". Except for USFS and FBI and CHP - but they are small players in comparison to LA City Fire (800) and LA County Fire.

Something tells me that there are plenty of freqs available since 476 to 480 has been licensed by LA County.

Just to tally the tally -

"What agencies have to move in order to situate everyone in Los Angeles County on UHF?"

Why would you want to move everyone to UHF????
Your list of agencies is lacking.
LAPD is in the 480 to 512
LAFD and LACoFD use multiple data channels in UHF.
UHF Medical Channels
LACoFD is also on UHF 470 Rx to 473 Tx for there dispatch operations.
Beverly Hills, Culver City, Burbank, Pasadena, Glendale, South Pasadena, Monrovia, Arcadia, etc on the ICIS System
LAX and Vnys
Taxi's etc
All of the trunk systems not listed here.
There is not alot available of available space in UHF.

I also agree with Exsmokey, there are probably hundreds of CHP Officers on duty everyday for CHP.
The Angeles NF has close to 40 fire stations on the forest

LAFD Channel 10 is not just for EMS captains, it is for ANY EMS response in the whole city. From hey RAxx bring up a back board to medical transportation control if there is an MCI. It is a Citywide EMS Channel

 

[Radio_Lady]

Your estimate of the number of CHP officers is well off target. There are 9 area offices in L.A. County and each, as far as the day and evening shifts usually each have at least 5 units in the field minimum. That is based on my travels on the freeways down there with my scanner on a bank dedicated to the CHP only. I've often heard the Central L.A. office fielding ten or more. That includes motor units, but does not include special units working on auto theft, DUI target location enforcement and other location focused traffic enforcement.

Absolutely right, Exsmokey. Zerg, bear in mind that CHP doesn't just handle the hundreds of miles of freeways in Los Angeles County, but they are also responsible for both traffic enforcement and collision investigation on all roads and highways in unincorporated areas throughout the county, plus some specific types of collisions even within incorporated cities, such as all student-occupied school bus accidents. LAPD's policy is to dispatch a unit to any collision involving a school bus, and if it meets the criteria we also notify CHP but our officers would remain at the scene and provide for any immediate needs (ambulances for injured students, etc). CHP has always had quick responses to our calls, so they clearly have a significant number of officers on the road, well over your "20 people on duty countywide." In Los Angeles and other urban counties closer to 20 people per office most hours would be my guess, And that's just the road officers and doesn't include the special duty people out there who Exsmokey mentions.

 

[LAflyer]

CHP Southern Division while smallest in geography of all divisions, but it has the largest number of uniformed and support employees anywhere in the state (approx 1,500).

Division was also #1 in workload. For example the division handles upward of 150,000 service calls monthly, with almost 60,000 collision reports per year. Southern has almost 1/3 of CHPs vehicle fleet as well.

Also as mentioned above - CHP has primary jurisdiction over roadways in 64 unincorporated communities of Los Angeles County as well which adds to the workload.

 

[jrholm]

And scratch Avalon Fire from your list as they don't really interact with anyone but LACoFD Station 55 who operates on Avalon Fire's radios for the most part. Avalon is located on Catalina Island, but the FD is only responsible for the 1.5 square miles of the City of Avalon and is an 11 man dept. Their dispatch is handled by LASD Avalon also.

 

[SCPD]

The Angeles NF has close to 40 fire stations on the forest

LAFD Channel 10 is not just for EMS captains, it is for ANY EMS response in the whole city. From hey RAxx bring up a back board to medical transportation control if there is an MCI. It is a Citywide EMS Channel

By my count the Angeles NF has 22 stations. The 23rd, Mill Creek, hasn't been open since 2009 when the Station Fire destroyed it. Plans to replace it are in the works and presently the beginning of the Environmental Assessment (EA) process is underway. As it is an existing station site this EA process shouldn't take long as long as there aren't any significant issues during the public scoping process. Engine 33 used to be housed in L.A. County Station 81 between Acton and Aqua Dulce, but following the relocation of the Ranger Station/District Office for the Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers Ranger District to Acton it is now located there. Another station (39) was to be located in the Pinon Hills/Phelan area, but for now that engine is stationed at Big Pines. One station, Los Alamos (36) is co-located with the Los Padres NF.

I did not mean to imply that Channel 10 (LAFD) is used by EMS Captains only. I was referring to the large size of the EMS organization within the department. Channels 4 and 10 are probably the busiest channels on LAFD's radio system. This reflects the average workload of fire departments providing EMS with 80% medical and 20% fire.

zerg, I've stated this before, you don't seem to know much about the west. The Southern Division of the CHP has some of the busiest roads in the world. The 405 provides access to the western portion of the L.A. Basin portion of L.A. County, the western portion of the San Fernando Valley and LAX, the third busiest airport in the U.S. and sixth in the world. The 405 is the busiest highway in the U.S. and Interstate 10 is close behind. The West L.A. area office of the CHP handles portions of both these interstates and by my observations over the last 50 years the busiest parts of both of them . Interstates 110 and 710 provide access to the L.A.-Long Beach seaport, the busiest in the U.S. and sixth in the world. There are 527 miles of freeway in L.A. County. This county, at about 10 million people, is the most populated county in the U.S.. It is only one county in the southern California megalopolis made up of Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino and Ventura Counties, with a population of 18 million, is second only to the New York metro area with 19 million in population, an area that includes portions of four states. Now, how is it that you would think that only 20 CHP officers would be on duty at a time?

 

[zerg901]

Before I forget to reply -

1. I know there is a big plan to use Camp Pendleton to take fire units to Catalina for major wildfires. I dont think that anyone wants to decrease coordination with Avalon FD.

2. No one has answered yet about the LA County 161 Mhz and 152 mhz channels.

3. Someone print out the CHP CAD for a Sunday morning at 2 AM. If there are more than 20 units on duty, I will send you a bright shiny $1 bill. If there are closer to 100 than 20 units on duty, I will send you two bright shiny $1 bills. For real.

4. What is the response to a motor vehicle crash on Angeles Natl Forest Highway when the occupants are fighting afterwards? What is the response if the crash happened on the road, and all the bodies landed on the road? What if a few bodies goes over the side? If the crash happened when someone hit the gas instead of the brake from a parked position on the side of the road, who responds? If the vehicle happens to roll uncontrolled from a USFS campground, across the highway, over the side, and lands in a ditch in a city, who responds and is in charge? I would hope that the nearest armed peace officer responds to each and everyone of those calls. And I hope they have some sort of intercommunication so they dont end up shooting each other in the dark.

5. Sorry - forgot my best question. Why dot you all offer your suggestions for improving public safety radio communications systems in Los Angeles County and environs.

 

[KMA367]

Someone print out the CHP CAD for a Sunday morning at 2 AM. If there are more than 20 units on duty, I will send you a bright shiny $1 bill. If there are closer to 100 than 20 units on duty, I will send you two bright shiny $1 bills. For real.

I don't understand why you can't seem to accept the size and activity level of the CHP in L.A. County in particular, but at any rate, your "offer" would be a pointless and actually impossible exercise. The highly sanitized CHP CAD has never shown unit deployment info, and specific unit IDs are only incidentally given within some call lines. And more to the point, this public TRAFFIC log is as incomplete and fractional view of what the CHP is doing at any given time as is listening to LAPD or LASD on a scanner.

Just as the majority of LASD and LAPD incidents are never broadcast over the air, but go entirely by MDC, (in LAPD's case, roughly 2/3 to 3/4 of calls - the "routine" ones - are never voiced,), much of what the CHP is doing isn't shown on their CAD page because it's not related to existing traffic conditions

A career CHP Dispatcher and Dispatch Supervisor posted some time back in a series of emails, and gave me her OK to re-post it, an explanation of what the public CHP CAD is and what it isn't, so I'll quote some germane parts from those emails (some emphasis is hers, some is mine):

"The CAD TIP site was developed for a couple of reasons, mostly to satisfy the media in its incessant desire to appraise the motoring public with information about traffic hazards. It is, after all, the Traffic Information Page, not the "Window Into Everything The CHP Does".

A great many incident types are never displayed to the public. Traffic stops and BOLs for reckless drivers or possible DUI drivers, most service requests for disabled motorists unless they involve an immediate traffic hazard, a whole bunch o' stuff. Police activity is sometimes indicated if it's a TRAFFIC HAZARD, roads blocked situations, and that's it.

For example, as soon as an accident is changed to an arrest, (which is a lot of what we do) that incident drops out of view. Likewise any accident that also involves a crime. Traffic stops are not viewable. In the metropolitan areas, Hit & Run accidents may be visible due to the traffic congestion problems; in the more rural areas, if we change an accident (that would normally be visible) to Hit & Run, or to an arrest for DUI, the entire incident just goes POOF! out of sight.

On a recent evening it was fairly slow in the field at Monterey CHP. (Call-takers were busy with transferring wireless 9-1-1 calls, but there wasn't much going on for us to dispatch to our units.)

At Monterey, while there was NOTHING visible on the 'Net, we had five working incidents:

• A traffic stop.
• A DUI turnover from a Sheriff's Office.
• A disabled motorist awaiting assistance from someone (third party report).
• A request for a meet between an allied agency officer and one of ours.
• A disabled motorist, lone female, awaiting tow service.
• A suicide attempt. (Well, a successful one.... in a parked vehicle.)

At the same time, LACC had 62 incidents working, with only 22 of them visible on the 'Net.

GGCC was handling 51, with 33 of them visible.

Inland Comm was handling 18, with 8 visible to the public.

San Diego had 13 with 8 visible (including a specific Media Information log).

Susanville had NOTHING going on. (Obviously, nothing displayed on the CAD TIP site, either.)"​

So judging the actual activity level, much less the number of units or officers on duty, would be impossible based on what little the CHP CAD shows.

 

[SCPD]

What is the response to a motor vehicle crash on Angeles Natl Forest Highway when the occupants are fighting afterwards? What is the response if the crash happened on the road, and all the bodies landed on the road? What if a few bodies goes over the side? If the crash happened when someone hit the gas instead of the brake from a parked position on the side of the road, who responds? If the vehicle happens to roll uncontrolled from a USFS campground, across the highway, over the side, and lands in a ditch in a city, who responds and is in charge? I would hope that the nearest armed peace officer responds to each and everyone of those calls. And I hope they have some sort of intercommunication so they dont end up shooting each other in the dark.

All the situations you speak of go beyond the more routine property damage only traffic accidents that I mentioned, I believe on another thread, as I don't see any discussion of County/CHP/USFS response to accidents on this thread. Forest Service law enforcement officers are state certified peace officers, they have their POST certificates as a result of their training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glenco, Georgia. On medical calls they will provide EMT responses and traffic control until LAC arrives. The patrol units often provide all the traffic control as the CHP can't spare more than one officer for the scene and that lone officer is busy with the investigation. Patrol units and engines carry backboards due to the vehicle accident workload on the Angeles. The other southern California National Forests (Los Padres, San Bernardino and Cleveland) might be doing the same, however, the situation with law enforcement is different as the counties they are located in are better able to handle the workload due to a number of factors. These include the location of stations, the distances involved, lower population and more private land and communities within the boundaries of the forest.

 

[SCPD]

There is a joke on the Angeles "if all the dead bodies on the Angeles came back to life and started walking L.A.. County would grow in population by 25%

 

[Mikerh91]

By my count the Angeles NF has 22 stations. The 23rd, Mill Creek, hasn't been open since 2009 when the Station Fire destroyed it. Plans to replace it are in the works and presently the beginning of the Environmental Assessment (EA) process is underway. As it is an existing station site this EA process shouldn't take long as long as there aren't any significant issues during the public scoping process. Engine 33 used to be housed in L.A. County Station 81 between Acton and Aqua Dulce, but following the relocation of the Ranger Station/District Office for the Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers Ranger District to Acton it is now located there. Another station (39) was to be located in the Pinon Hills/Phelan area, but for now that engine is stationed at Big Pines. One station, Los Alamos (36) is co-located with the Los Padres NF.

I agree with you Exsmokey. Would you agree that the Angeles have close to 40 engines, it looks like the ANF has that many engines according to wild CAD and from what I have heard on the radio.

As for the LA Co FD 152 and 168 frequencies. LA Co FD uses VHF to tactical operations. VHF is also the FIRESCOPE standard for wild land fires.

I ask again,why would you want to move everything to UHF?

 

[SCPD]

Several stations have more than one engine in a station so the count I just made is 35.

There is no point to convert everything in the county to UHF. For example,with the new extenders and cross band capabilities built into the new CHP radios, they can communicate mobile and handheld with almost anyone. As for the Angeles NF, having a UHF radio in all fire apparatus and law enforcement vehicles with LAC having VHF handhelds in all their apparatus works very well.

I think zerg makes a good point however, the extraordinary effort to have interoperability in the county is something that should happen. We have all been discussing the adequacy of interoperability in L.A. County for day to day and year to year type incidents. A large scale disaster, such as a significant earthquake that involves the entire county will be different and that is what needs to be kept in mind when discussing compatible radio systems. LA RICS is achievable but has some major hurdles, the largest of which is money. Second would be the cooperation of the U.S. Congress. Taking the UHF-T band away is a huge blow for L.A. County as well as some other urban areas in the U.S. The small steps already in place, such as the ICIS, which could be expanded to a county wide system, will be wiped out by the loss of the T band. I don't quite understand why the Congress has made this decision considering the huge financial blow to cities that are already experiencing great difficulty. With the exception of cost, this might be a good thing as it will force the agencies in the county to start from almost the ground up and greater interoperability may result.

The emergency management experience I've had from smaller day to day responses to large ones such as the North Fork Fire at Yellowstone National Park in 1988 (500,000 acres) taught me many things. Probably the most counter intuitive is how seemingly small details can affect incidents in a significant way. For example, on one of the National Forests I worked on, the initial attack on a one acre fire failed. A battalion chief was the IC with a small hand crew and one Type VI engine (250 gallons) at scene. The skill of the IC was essential in holding the fire at one acre until the rest of the response arrived. The engine ran out of water and the engineer was instructed drive down about 600 feet to a nearby creek and draft water from it. The engineer was a seasonal and had difficulty drafting, which isn't always straightforward. The IC had to leave the fire to assist. During that time the fire escaped, eventually reaching 10,000 acres with 30 expensive residences destroyed. The longer term solution to this is having Type III engines and captains and engineers on permanent appointments.

Another example is the non-fire emergency I was working where one of my employees, a seasonal, was inexperienced using a King handheld and was in a key location alone. The employee was unable to understand how to change tones and became flustered. The difference between a channel and a tone was not grasped in spite of training. The channel and tone the radio was on had to be used in an attempt to explain the process, halting all the command communication for several minutes. The entire response was compromised.

I think of these and a couple of dozen other similar experiences. I imagine something not working correctly on some type of interoperability device that needs a technician's attention and the technician having trouble starting his service vehicle. This or some other problem delaying use of the device. Perhaps a single apparatus is missing its VHF handheld and someone in a key location can't speak to another agency. The point is, a single radio that can be switched from one channel to another could determine the fate of the incident. The initial attack or response to an incident often determines whether the incident will grow larger and/or more complex. It is at least a highly dynamic, more often chaotic, period on an incident when the smallest unforeseen detail may bring the incident to its knees.

The clock doesn't stop ticking because the agencies are not all on the same page or because this or that agency or jurisdiction is not fully participating. When that little detail makes a huge difference it is often too late and everyone ends up kicking themselves for the lack of foresight.