Lost in the attic!!
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w2xq
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I haven't seen any mention of the roof materials, inside or out, nor the spacing to electrical, telephone or cable wiring. You might want to have a look before expending time or money on an antenna project. Another alternative is to install a remote transceiver/antenna somewhere else and do a remote control thingie. Search the ARRL's QST archives; I know the subject has been covered from time to time.
I'd just move to a non-HOA neighborhood. I tried to talk my mom out of moving to an HOA neighborhood, but she wasn't hearing me.
One of their rules involved not putting storage buildings in their back yards. Well, one of her neighbors did and the HOA sued the lady after she refused to remove the building. The HOA lost in court and now they are requiring all of the residents to pay for the court case. Mom told them that she wasn't going to pay, because she didn't have anything to do with the building or the HOA suing the other woman, so they (HOA) are seeking to put a lean on my mom's house.
Again, I'd either put the antenna outside and tell the HOA to pound sand or I'd move.
One of their rules involved not putting storage buildings in their back yards. Well, one of her neighbors did and the HOA sued the lady after she refused to remove the building. The HOA lost in court and now they are requiring all of the residents to pay for the court case. Mom told them that she wasn't going to pay, because she didn't have anything to do with the building or the HOA suing the other woman, so they (HOA) are seeking to put a lean on my mom's house.
Again, I'd either put the antenna outside and tell the HOA to pound sand or I'd move.
Sorry
I'd say let the HOA take her to court.
The ruling to keep the shed suprised me a bit. When you move in you agree to abide by the HOA.
Have your mom's lawyer try to go in front of the same judge.
And it's a little interesting, the comment that the HOA wants all the shareholders to put in on the cost of a court loss. I'm assuming the shed owner took the HOA to small claims court.
Did here HOA hire a $300 an hour lawyer?
Is the shed owner suing for pain and suffering or something?
If this was just a small claims case, your mom and others need to look at why the HOA officials can't cough up a lousy $200 without going to the people. A well managed HOA should have a rainy-day-fund of at least a few grand.
I'd say let the HOA take her to court.
The ruling to keep the shed suprised me a bit. When you move in you agree to abide by the HOA.
Have your mom's lawyer try to go in front of the same judge.
And it's a little interesting, the comment that the HOA wants all the shareholders to put in on the cost of a court loss. I'm assuming the shed owner took the HOA to small claims court.
Did here HOA hire a $300 an hour lawyer?
Is the shed owner suing for pain and suffering or something?
If this was just a small claims case, your mom and others need to look at why the HOA officials can't cough up a lousy $200 without going to the people. A well managed HOA should have a rainy-day-fund of at least a few grand.
Correct. This is why my mom wanted to live in an HOA environment. She was under the impression that all the rules must be followed. She, as well as the HOA, found out that is not the case.
My mom did not want anything to do with the case at all. The HOA requested funds from residents for the suit. My mom told them no. The HOA pursued the case anyway and lost. Now the HOA is demanding to be reimbursed for the money that they put into the suit. It was a long, drawn out case, which cost the HOA a pretty penny. The HOA got in over their head and went beyond their financial scope. It's as simple as that. They thought they had a sure-fire case against the woman, so they kept pursuing it. That is until they lost.
I don't think the lady sued them at all. Just the fact that the HOA spent a lot of money that they didn't have trying to pursue this woman.
The thing is, it is a VERY nice shed. Not some tin building that is going to rust away. It has a permanent foundation and is made to look just like the house. One of the HOA staffers does not like the lady that put up the building, so that is where most of the case stemmed from. I guess the HOA learned a valuable lesson; pick your battles wisely.
I think my mom knows why I tried to steer her away from HOAs now.
Back on topic, I'm trying to figure out a way to put an HF antenna on my property now and may end up putting it in the attic.
I've heard that you can lay a Carolina Windom on the ground and it will perform nicely. I don't how true that is, but don't forget to pick it up before cutting the grass!
And be sure to not let anyone near it while transmitting!!!
I've heard that you can lay a Carolina Windom on the ground and it will perform nicely. I don't how true that is, but don't forget to pick it up before cutting the grass!
And be sure to not let anyone near it while transmitting!!!
Someone else brought up an important question about what the roof made of and what wiring might be near the attic. If you have wiring in the attic going to ceiling lights like most houses, any horizontal antenna you run in the attic will be just a few feet above it and its not going to work very well.
On the other hand using a short loaded HF antenna with a very large capacity hat above a ground screen can work really well. Any of the large coil HF screwdriver antennas (not an ATAS POS) can be shortened to under 6ft or less using a capacity hat of 6 or 8ft diameter made of aluminum rods or even wires stapled to the rafters.
I bought a "ground plane" widget on Ebay made for CB antennas that had a 3/8-24 threaded hub and six little useless radials held in with set screws. I replaced the radials with 4ft long 3/16dia aluminum rods making an 8ft capacity hat and tried that on a Tarheel model 75 screwdriver with a 22" long mast above the coil. I was amazed how well this 4ft high antenna worked on 80m on up on my truck.
The short mast with large capacity hat was equal to replacing the stock 6ft whip with about a 15ft whip but the whole thing is really short and would fit in just about any attic. BTW, this was only a test and I don't drive around with an 8ft cap hat on my truck.
You mentioned a 10ft X 40ft space and you can cover that with chicken wire or hardware cloth and stick the screwdriver antenna in the middle. The resulting ground plane area would be much larger than any vehicle with the same antenna and that is a really good thing.
A mobile screwdriver antenna set up like this would not be affected by the house wiring which would be under the ground screen and if the roof material is fairly transparent at HF this setup will work very well.
prcguy
On the other hand using a short loaded HF antenna with a very large capacity hat above a ground screen can work really well. Any of the large coil HF screwdriver antennas (not an ATAS POS) can be shortened to under 6ft or less using a capacity hat of 6 or 8ft diameter made of aluminum rods or even wires stapled to the rafters.
I bought a "ground plane" widget on Ebay made for CB antennas that had a 3/8-24 threaded hub and six little useless radials held in with set screws. I replaced the radials with 4ft long 3/16dia aluminum rods making an 8ft capacity hat and tried that on a Tarheel model 75 screwdriver with a 22" long mast above the coil. I was amazed how well this 4ft high antenna worked on 80m on up on my truck.
The short mast with large capacity hat was equal to replacing the stock 6ft whip with about a 15ft whip but the whole thing is really short and would fit in just about any attic. BTW, this was only a test and I don't drive around with an 8ft cap hat on my truck.
You mentioned a 10ft X 40ft space and you can cover that with chicken wire or hardware cloth and stick the screwdriver antenna in the middle. The resulting ground plane area would be much larger than any vehicle with the same antenna and that is a really good thing.
A mobile screwdriver antenna set up like this would not be affected by the house wiring which would be under the ground screen and if the roof material is fairly transparent at HF this setup will work very well.
prcguy
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I would second the "slinky" antenna. I built my own, they are cheap. If it doesn't work to your liking, you aren't out that much money.
Try a full-wave loop for 40m; just get about 140 feet of wire and string it around the perimeter of the attic, going up to the ridge and back down again and into the center of the attic if necessary. Just enclose as much space as possible within the loop. Feed it with TV twin lead or ladder line into a 4:1 balun, and coax from there to the tuner. Think of the Droopy Loop (QST July 1996, page 57) only installed indoors...
I'm in a similar situation, in a house measuring about 30' square, more or less. Installed a loop as above and it works great on 40 and 15 with no tuner, and well enough on 20-10 with a tuner.
Last spring I installed a G5RV Mini cut for 20m mounted at the ridge of the roof, and it works absolutely great for 20 through 10, including the WARC bands, with the autotuner in the rig.
c4
Newbie
"This is an HOA, no outdoor antennas except TV dish."
ok well most of the HOA members are patriotic, so how do thy feel about flag pole's with a wire running up the inside? i have just heard about this, but i am sure you could find out more details. just saying!
ok well most of the HOA members are patriotic, so how do thy feel about flag pole's with a wire running up the inside? i have just heard about this, but i am sure you could find out more details. just saying!
W9CAC
Member
Thanks again.
Ok, I appreciate all your responses. Some I found informative, others were quite amusing. Let me start at the top. I am going to stick with a 66' OCF and bend the ends in opposite directions at 30 degrees to the antenna along the end walls, I will be using a 4:1 balun and a line isolator. My other antenna will be the modified MFJ-1796. My roof is constructed of 50 year composite shingles (no Metal). The trusses are 2 X 6 and 2 X 4 construction, There are no phone lines in the attic, there are 2 pieces of conduit for lighting approx. 6' below any antenna. No duct work and all the vent stacks are PVC. The siding on the building is vinyl. I have a pipe chase wall in a closet off the foyer, I will use it to run my coax down from the attic to the crawl space off the raised lower level and under the staircase. The fire and burglar alarm uses this chase wall, but I can keep my coax about 18" away from it. I will not be running more than 100 watts on hf. I have decided to put a remote antenna switch in the attic and run a couple of the hamstick dipoles for a couple of other bands. I am shooting for a total of 5 HF antennas and a VHF and a UHF antenna also. I have a single center dormer in the front of the roof just big enough for a Elk Log periodic on a tripod with a TV rotor.
Thanks again guys.
Oh and by the way, I am not going to be moving anytime soon either.
Ok, I appreciate all your responses. Some I found informative, others were quite amusing. Let me start at the top. I am going to stick with a 66' OCF and bend the ends in opposite directions at 30 degrees to the antenna along the end walls, I will be using a 4:1 balun and a line isolator. My other antenna will be the modified MFJ-1796. My roof is constructed of 50 year composite shingles (no Metal). The trusses are 2 X 6 and 2 X 4 construction, There are no phone lines in the attic, there are 2 pieces of conduit for lighting approx. 6' below any antenna. No duct work and all the vent stacks are PVC. The siding on the building is vinyl. I have a pipe chase wall in a closet off the foyer, I will use it to run my coax down from the attic to the crawl space off the raised lower level and under the staircase. The fire and burglar alarm uses this chase wall, but I can keep my coax about 18" away from it. I will not be running more than 100 watts on hf. I have decided to put a remote antenna switch in the attic and run a couple of the hamstick dipoles for a couple of other bands. I am shooting for a total of 5 HF antennas and a VHF and a UHF antenna also. I have a single center dormer in the front of the roof just big enough for a Elk Log periodic on a tripod with a TV rotor.
Thanks again guys.
Oh and by the way, I am not going to be moving anytime soon either.
My local HOA crowd has not been able to spot My 4:1 balun, short bit of window line, and LOOP around the eve of my house. You should look into every option you have. For me, a Loop off of a piece of window line, to a Balun. Then down to my tuner and rig. Was the best way to go.
fwiw: The Loop is 22.5" x 68.5" ( 182' end to end ). Works and loads every where from 160m up to 10m With LESS then a 2.0:1 tune at the tuner. A couple of spots on a few of the bands, the tuner is not even needed.
fwiw: The Loop is 22.5" x 68.5" ( 182' end to end ). Works and loads every where from 160m up to 10m With LESS then a 2.0:1 tune at the tuner. A couple of spots on a few of the bands, the tuner is not even needed.
W9CAC
Member
If I could, I would love to have a loop. But I have no continuous eave. My house has gables, windows and projections that prohibit erecting a loop in a stealth manner. The longest continuous eave is only 20 feet before there is an obstruction. My wife would be a little upset to have a wire running across her windows. Just not practical.
Would like a flag pole vertical, needs a village permit though. The permit requires some type of engineering plan approval because I would be within 20 feet of a public walkway. More research has to be done there.
Would like a flag pole vertical, needs a village permit though. The permit requires some type of engineering plan approval because I would be within 20 feet of a public walkway. More research has to be done there.
Jim41
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Christmas Lights
Are you allowed to display Christmas lights on the exterior of your house?
Have you ever done so?
Are there rules on when they can be put up and taken down? Could they be left up all year? Worth trying to see how good an antenna they could be.
Also, think about a small gauge insulated wire with a color that would be unobtrusive routed along the perimeter of the roof.
Jim41
Are you allowed to display Christmas lights on the exterior of your house?
Have you ever done so?
Are there rules on when they can be put up and taken down? Could they be left up all year? Worth trying to see how good an antenna they could be.
Also, think about a small gauge insulated wire with a color that would be unobtrusive routed along the perimeter of the roof.
Jim41
W9CAC
Member
No Christmas decorations are allowed other than what can be displayed at what you on a 6' step ladder can reach. Not high enough. Lights can be displayed the day after Thanksgiving and taken down day after New Years day. Fines follow after that.
I am pretty happy with my attic antennas though. I made a QSO in South Africa yesterday out on the edge of the Kalahari desert. Also, Riverdale, California and Buenos Aires, South America all on 10 meters. 40 meters in the overnight hours has been good too.
I am pretty happy with my attic antennas though. I made a QSO in South Africa yesterday out on the edge of the Kalahari desert. Also, Riverdale, California and Buenos Aires, South America all on 10 meters. 40 meters in the overnight hours has been good too.
I zigzagged a wire all over the narrow dimension of my attic, stapling it to the wood and working my way up the wide dimension. It is totally random, I do not even know what the length is. Connect a wire from there down to the balanced wire hookup on your tuner. Then take the other side of the balanced wire connection of your tuner to ground. If you can hook up a few 1/4 wave thin wires for the bands you want to work to your the ground side of the tuner and hide them by various wiggles and squiggles around your floor to wall moldings, etc. That will help the tuner transfer more power to the attic wire.
I set up like this a few yrs ago. My best contact, from this QTH about 45 miles south of Detroit, was New Zealand on 30 meters PSK31 at only 20 watts output. Europe, South America, Asia once in a while, and all over the USA on 40 meters. I have a MFJ 989C tuner and a Kenwood TS-680S.
Good luck!
I set up like this a few yrs ago. My best contact, from this QTH about 45 miles south of Detroit, was New Zealand on 30 meters PSK31 at only 20 watts output. Europe, South America, Asia once in a while, and all over the USA on 40 meters. I have a MFJ 989C tuner and a Kenwood TS-680S.
Good luck!
W9CAC
Member
Thanks, that is something to keep in mind. I will investigate that further.
If you can find something that will 'work', stick with it until you find something that works 'better'. Each and every installation is going to be different in some way. What 'works' fine in one instance probably won't work as well in another (or it may work 'better', who knows till you try it). There is no single 'best' antenna, wish there was.
- 'Doc
- 'Doc
Token
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Been there, done that, years ago and a similar sized attic, a little large, as mine was about 48 L x 20 W x 5 H. The roof was asphalt shingle over wood. There were multiple power lines and even a water line in the attic space. All of those things impact the antenna but they are what they are.
I used a home brew fan dipole with the wires sloping down as much as space allowed (feedpoint as high as possible, ends of the wires as low as possible) and achieved no tuner operation on portions of 80/40/20/15/10 (this was pre WARC). Tuner operation got me full bandwidth on each band. The separate 80 and 40 legs used loading coils to shorten the wires to fit the corner to corner length I had (different sets of corners for 80 and 40), but 20/15/10 were not loaded. I took each set of wires (one band per wire set) out on a slightly different angle from the common feed point, so that the 10 meter wire, for example, was rotated 90 degrees from 80 meters. There was a lot of iterative adjustment and adjusting one band did impact other bands, but eventually I ended up with an antenna with acceptable SWR and decent characteristics all with a single feed line.
Later I was able to put a 2M and a 70cm antenna in the same space.
T!
I used a home brew fan dipole with the wires sloping down as much as space allowed (feedpoint as high as possible, ends of the wires as low as possible) and achieved no tuner operation on portions of 80/40/20/15/10 (this was pre WARC). Tuner operation got me full bandwidth on each band. The separate 80 and 40 legs used loading coils to shorten the wires to fit the corner to corner length I had (different sets of corners for 80 and 40), but 20/15/10 were not loaded. I took each set of wires (one band per wire set) out on a slightly different angle from the common feed point, so that the 10 meter wire, for example, was rotated 90 degrees from 80 meters. There was a lot of iterative adjustment and adjusting one band did impact other bands, but eventually I ended up with an antenna with acceptable SWR and decent characteristics all with a single feed line.
Later I was able to put a 2M and a 70cm antenna in the same space.
T!
This antenna is all you need for HF in a HOA regulated environment. I worked all over the world with one built very similarly. Get a good tuner if you don't have one already and rock out! An MFJ 941 is a cheap and good tuner for this antenna.
$4 Special Antenna by W1GFH - The Four Dollar Special Antenna!
$4 Special Antenna by W1GFH - The Four Dollar Special Antenna!
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